Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Khalagar]

16 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

Maybe Khal can try some other weapons, in other areas, if there's a need. 

 

Well, the argument is just a rehash of one that pops up here all the time, and the tldr is that I think each tree should have it's own viable set of weapons at all stages of the game. Int doesn't have a tier 0 or even tier 1 ranged weapon, nor a tier 3 ranged weapon, and also doesn't have tier 3 melee weapon. It has a wonky design compared to the other attribute trees, that I think would make sense to be codified into actually matching the modern game philosophy they are going for in A20.

 

If you spawn in on day one and go "I want to play a build focusing on int!"  you have to spend more points on Int Attribute than the other attributes do, before you can even buy level 1 of your intended perk, because the first level of the int weapon stuff takes 3 or 5 int (can't remember off top of my head) before you can even put 1 point in it. By comparison, the other attributes can just put a point straight into club / shotgun damage right from level 1 without having to raise Strength / Perception / Agility etc

 

And even then, you have no weapon to use, because Int doesn't even have a tier 0 weapon to begin with, so for the entire first week, you literally cant use int. Alpha 20 is adding a tier 0 baton, but that's it. So you'd spend the entire first week using only melee, while everyone else is running around with melee + shotguns and pipe rifles etc.

 

A blow pipe that shoots junk ammo would cover a tier 0 ranged weapon, perhaps an upgraded iron version for tier 1, and they could even do an extra fancy blow pipe for a tier 3 ranged weapon if they wanted to, but just having a tier 0 blowpipe would give int users literally *any* option early game that uses their int point investment.

 

Like wise, Int has junk sledges which are a fantastic melee weapon, but those are usually a week 2+ weapon, and the stun baton is essentially useless. Even for "self defense" a club is just flat out better in every situation because it will stagger more reliably than even a fully perked and modded out stun baton does. The stun baton has AoE, but if you bust out a stun baton against a crowd of zombies they are going to bust your teeth for you right quick because it doesn't proc on every hit and they will give you a purple nurple the second you tink off one and it doesn't proc the shock. Better to just clobber them with a club or fire-axe and 1-2 hit kill them

 

Int isn't exactly bad meta wise, it's just bad design / perk  / weapon selection  wise because it is janky and feels clunky to spec into compared to every other tree.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Mechanimal]

53 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

Well, the argument is just a rehash of one that pops up here all the time, and the tldr is that I think each tree should have it's own viable set of weapons at all stages of the game. ...

...

Do you not use a bow? Guess I am just a heavy bow user, especially early game, but I keep using it throughout, stealth damage headshots are my jam, all the way through.

I never expected each perk tree to be a thing unto itself, am always a bit spread out in my builds, INT being the main one I always level up quickest, and furthest. But I look to other trees for all offense weapons, whether ranged or melee. Heck I don't even always perk into bows very far until later in a playthrough, even though I always use the F out of them. To me the perks for offensive weapons are more of a bonus than a necessity.

Just seems to me it is meant to be this way, is more of a support/defense/utility tree. Aside from turrets(which are enough imho) I have near zero expectations from INT for ranged/melee help, nor do I think it needs it. But that is just my opinion based on play style/skill focus.

Not that you don't have an interesting idea there with the blow gun... but, again, I'd honestly just still use a bow. It's probably an old habit from A16 when LBD was still a thing, is where/when *most* of my 3k+ hrs were spent, though I've kept the habit in every alpha since then because with good aim and the stealth kill bonus it's still enough to clear most of a POI using little more than some stone arrows.

I hardcore hunt sleepers like I hunt far more deadly human players in Rainbow 6 Siege, which no AI can compete with. In there "camping", hiding around corners etc, is a big part of that game, but they ain't sleeping, they are very human, very aware, and very looking out/waiting for you. One of my fav ops is Nokk(who also has a Deagle:), who is a stealth attacker, whom I use to hunt Cavera, a stealth defender whose name you never want to hear a teammate yell out during a match, ha(if you know, you know.). Anyway, my point is I know I am biased and have a highly focused skillset tuned by going up against other humans in a very similar fashion. Adapting to stealth in 7dtd is super easy by comparison, even then it is worth a try for anyone rly. Once you get used to it/good at the tactic it is hard to revert, it saves sooo much ammo for later/more demanding situations. Worth a try if they never add a blowgun or other such ranged INT weapon, which I doubt they will, so may as well find an existing alternative, the bow is just my recommendation since I too am a heavy INT player for the most part.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mechanimal (see edit history)

[Blake_]

7 hours ago, faatal said:

103

Lol. That's to be expected. There are always new MFs being born while other MFs get the fix.

[SnowDog1942]

Sounds like the MF number @faatal is giving is the total number... some/many? of which may not be fixed before experimental.   I think what people want to know is the number of MF before experimental. 

 

Basically how many of those MF'n MF's need to be MF'n fixed before experimental release?

Edited November 2, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Scyris]

7 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Well, the argument is just a rehash of one that pops up here all the time, and the tldr is that I think each tree should have it's own viable set of weapons at all stages of the game. Int doesn't have a tier 0 or even tier 1 ranged weapon, nor a tier 3 ranged weapon, and also doesn't have tier 3 melee weapon. It has a wonky design compared to the other attribute trees, that I think would make sense to be codified into actually matching the modern game philosophy they are going for in A20.

 

If you spawn in on day one and go "I want to play a build focusing on int!"  you have to spend more points on Int Attribute than the other attributes do, before you can even buy level 1 of your intended perk, because the first level of the int weapon stuff takes 3 or 5 int (can't remember off top of my head) before you can even put 1 point in it. By comparison, the other attributes can just put a point straight into club / shotgun damage right from level 1 without having to raise Strength / Perception / Agility etc

 

And even then, you have no weapon to use, because Int doesn't even have a tier 0 weapon to begin with, so for the entire first week, you literally cant use int. Alpha 20 is adding a tier 0 baton, but that's it. So you'd spend the entire first week using only melee, while everyone else is running around with melee + shotguns and pipe rifles etc.

 

A blow pipe that shoots junk ammo would cover a tier 0 ranged weapon, perhaps an upgraded iron version for tier 1, and they could even do an extra fancy blow pipe for a tier 3 ranged weapon if they wanted to, but just having a tier 0 blowpipe would give int users literally *any* option early game that uses their int point investment.

 

Like wise, Int has junk sledges which are a fantastic melee weapon, but those are usually a week 2+ weapon, and the stun baton is essentially useless. Even for "self defense" a club is just flat out better in every situation because it will stagger more reliably than even a fully perked and modded out stun baton does. The stun baton has AoE, but if you bust out a stun baton against a crowd of zombies they are going to bust your teeth for you right quick because it doesn't proc on every hit and they will give you a purple nurple the second you tink off one and it doesn't proc the shock. Better to just clobber them with a club or fire-axe and 1-2 hit kill them

 

Int isn't exactly bad meta wise, it's just bad design / perk  / weapon selection  wise because it is janky and feels clunky to spec into compared to every other tree.

 

I feel the fact weapons are locked to stats was a stupid move period. Instead of 1 gate to use all weapons (Char level) at max power, now we have 5 stat gates, the whole point I thought to the stat system was to "remove level gates" but instead it made the problem much worse, and now there are 5 gates instead of just one to all perks. Miner 69'er and motherlode also need to be combined into 1 perk instead of being 2 diff things. I'd be a bit less annoyed by it if each stat gave a unique buff, but currently they all do the exact same thing. The stat system is why I pretty much don't care for vanilla anymore due to how poorly its implemented. Wanna see a good way to do it? Look at Undead Legacy mod, half the weapon power bonuses is in the perk, the other half is in a action skill. Also putting points into Stats in UL along with the headshot damage, ALSO increases exp action skills gain in that tree per use. Best way though is Darkness Falls where stats are removed entirely. Weapon perks are based on action skill levels only. Every other perk is char level based, aka simmlar to how a16.4 was. Craft quality is just level locked. 1, 10, 20, 40 then 80. Much better than vanilla system where, if you have no stats for the weapon your always well, rather bad with it and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

The stat system might be better in multiplayer, but I don't play MP, so I am forced to do everything myself, and I feel overly shoehorned into certain stats to be effective, Mostly Str and Agi. Both have many general use perks that are useful.

 

I mean its too late now to change anything for A20, but maybe for A21 something could be done to make the perk system less garbage.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Scyris (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

33 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Basically how many of those MF'n MF's need to be MF'n fixed before experimental release?

MFs are MFs, if just one slips through... well, I don't have to tell you, you don't wanna have a MF behind you, am I right? 

[dcsobral]

8 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Nah, just have a weapon that can be used for clearing rooms would be nice. Like, I usually just use a Fire-axe powered by Miner 69 only and that's more than enough for a non raid boss level room, so something on par with that as a t3 int weapon would be nice. Int struggles really hard when there's a room with 3 normal zombies in it and you don't want to set down sledges and wait for  50 seconds while they ragdoll them around, and also don't want to set down your turrets and chew through 200 iron to kill 3 fodder zombies that you could kill with a wrench. You pretty much just have to carry off perk weapons with you to use as your actual primary weapon, and only use your intended build focused weapons for big rooms with 10+ zombies

You realize Miner 69r does not change the amount of damage you inflict to zombies, don't you?

 

Besides, the stun baton is perfectly capable of handling target rich environments:

 

 

(I was going to to use a 53:35 timestamp for the fun of it, but...)

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by dcsobral (see edit history)

[Roland]

8 hours ago, Khalagar said:

It has a wonky design compared to the other attribute trees

 

It is different than the other trees. Thus, it gives a completely different gameplay experience. The appeal of that different experience will vary for different people just as the game in general does-- but I'm grateful for the differences. I'm not going to be mad if they add more intellect themed weapons but I also feel the tree is great the way that it is. In most cases, I use it as a supporting tree to one of the others and only rarely have tried a dedicated intellect run but I enjoy those when I do them. I guess if I was constantly worried about how much damage I could be doing or how quickly I could be clearing POIs while playing intellect it probably would not be as much fun. But I don't. I just accept the limitations as part of the role I chose and imagine those limitations as being part of the world and could I still survive given these limits. That is fun for me.

[BFT2020]

9 hours ago, Khalagar said:

If you spawn in on day one and go "I want to play a build focusing on int!"  you have to spend more points on Int Attribute than the other attributes do, before you can even buy level 1 of your intended perk, because the first level of the int weapon stuff takes 3 or 5 int (can't remember off top of my head) before you can even put 1 point in it. By comparison, the other attributes can just put a point straight into club / shotgun damage right from level 1 without having to raise Strength / Perception / Agility etc

 

And even then, you have no weapon to use, because Int doesn't even have a tier 0 weapon to begin with, so for the entire first week, you literally cant use int. Alpha 20 is adding a tier 0 baton, but that's it. So you'd spend the entire first week using only melee, while everyone else is running around with melee + shotguns and pipe rifles etc.

 

 

Electrocutioner does not require Int 3 or 5 to unlock the first level, you can unlock it right away in the game.  The reason we don't unlock it was because we don't have a T0 stun baton so you are waiting to get enough stun baton parts to make your first one.  So it was always considered a wasted point to use at the beginning until you get your hands on either a stun baton or enough parts to craft one.  Now with the T0 stun baton, there is value in putting a perk point into it right away.  Level 2 of Exectrocutioner requires Level 3 Int which is the same as the other attributes.  Turrets require a starting Int of 3 before you can spec into them, but turrets are really not a perk you should be shooting for in the first few days of starting.

 

Also, as we saw in the playthroughs, nothing is preventing an Int build from running around in week 1 with melee  and pipe weapons.  Prime found one I believe on the first day in the first playthrough.  Unless you don't think you should be using weapons without being able to perk into them, but that is a condition you are putting on yourself, not the game itself.

 

I begin to wonder if you actually have seriously played an Int build rather than just looking at the perks and saying, Nah it's too weak.

[Aldranon]

Didn't Prime die over 2 times as well in that playthrough?

 

Just speaking for myself, success through dying is not a meta I prescribe to.  I stopped watching after his second death.

Now I don't know what he focused on, but it sure seemed pretty bad.  The "Death bonus" is very strong however...

 

For my first go at A20 I will put most points on Strength.  If that's too easy then I will change things up a bit.

[IvanChyruk]

Hello everyone from Ukraine, will there be an exact release date for the A20? when to wait for her? I have a game server with more than 20 players, everyone is waiting for A20. so when ? at least approximate. Sorry for my English if not translated correctly. 

[JCrook1028]

37 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

Didn't Prime die over 2 times as well in that playthrough?

 

Just speaking for myself, success through dying is not a meta I prescribe to.  I stopped watching after his second death.

Now I don't know what he focused on, but it sure seemed pretty bad.  The "Death bonus" is very strong however...

 

For my first go at A20 I will put most points on Strength.  If that's too easy then I will change things up a bit.

You think any of the Devs play to avoid dying? Not on stream they don't...

[meilodasreh]

11 hours ago, Khalagar said:

If you spawn in on day one and go "I want to play a build focusing on int!"  you have to spend more points on Int Attribute than the other attributes do, before you can even buy level 1 of your intended perk, because the first level of the int weapon stuff takes 3 or 5 int (can't remember off top of my head) before you can even put 1 point in it. By comparison, the other attributes can just put a point straight into club / shotgun damage right from level 1 without having to raise Strength / Perception / Agility etc

That doesn't really mean such a big disadvantage as you think.

 

See, even if you totally focus on INT and never spend any points into other skill branches, you can still fire a pistol for example (or any other gun).

And even if you would put that one point into the corresponding gun perk, the total damage output of your low level gun will not rise significantly,

because of its low base damage.

 

for example:

tier 0 pistol base damage = 10

put 1 perkpoint into it makes it go up 10-20%, making it = 11-12

low level zombie hitpoints may be lets say = 16-20

so you need two hits anyway.

 

The difference is really almost unnoticable at first because of the low base damage of all weapons, and the percentual rise when perking into it.

That's the same for all weapons.

 

It's the same discussion we had here considering "it's stupid to perk into strength, because when I want to destroy a block, I always need that seventh hit, only difference is before the last hit there are 20HP remaining, or 4HP. So no difference, points wasted".

 

Later in the game the difference considering weapon perks becomes bigger, because of the high base damage of the weapons.

But then you already have access to the higher tier INT stuff and of course you then use that instead of "wasting" bullets.

 

So it really isn't a big disadvantage that there are no low tier INT weapons.

Just use some of the other crap you find at first, it will kill things around you sufficiently, even if totally unperked.

 

[JCrook1028]

3 minutes ago, IvanChyruk said:

Hello everyone from Ukraine, will there be an exact release date for the A20? when to wait for her? I have a game server with more than 20 players, everyone is waiting for A20. so when ? at least approximate. Sorry for my English if not translated correctly. 

No date. When it's done is the closest you're gonna get.

[dcsobral]

1 hour ago, Aldranon said:

Didn't Prime die over 2 times as well in that playthrough?

 

Just speaking for myself, success through dying is not a meta I prescribe to.  I stopped watching after his second death.

Now I don't know what he focused on, but it sure seemed pretty bad.  The "Death bonus" is very strong however...

 

For my first go at A20 I will put most points on Strength.  If that's too easy then I will change things up a bit.

He did! Alas, he was using clubs. He showed the pipe baton towards the end, after they had all but stopped playing. I don't think he died once he started using the pipe baton.

 

[Sektor12]

Hello Fun Pimps,

 

Where is it the flame turret wich was anounced previously? 

 

When you will release:

 

The sinked sub on game?

 

The diving suit? ( to explore beneath water and search sinked containers such as sinked boat or a pretrol boat)

 

The oxigen tanks for the diving suit, also the portable big light bigger than the lantern that it is above the table of some buildings ?

 

The 2 or 3 camouflages, one of them is leafs ( because zombies will get more smarter so it will need the camouflage system)?

The first camouflage can it be using, clay - (Mud) and grass ( leaves) and perhaps a little wood. It i

Will be added on tuturial and crouched used more times if zombies see player will run tino and become more smarter. Notice the zombies will be more smarter and if the see player they can run into, then it would be necessary the camouflage sistem to be more undetectable to zombies. The Second Camouflage will use leather, scrap metal, plastic, cloth and 2 or 3 special pieces. The third Camouflage will use more expensive things.

 

 

The motocross bike for 2 players ? (The red motocross similar like the terminator 2 when the boy is escaping from T1000 wich is driving a truck). The desert buggu with chassis and wheels, the next is armoured and then the phase three player can add 9 mm machine gun attached on roof top buggy. Position of the players, one drives and another on the back and the player can shoots his own weapon - Similar like the buggy but buggy has a minigun or heavy machine gun attached on the roof of the buggy)

 

The buggy for 2 players ? (One who drives and on the back of the player the second player can maneuver the minigun or machine gun wich is attached on the roof top of the buggy and can fire the machine gun)

The new armour for buggy? There is a buggy without armour and the person can choose to have upgradble armour - Normally it will be a skinny buggy ( similar to the rally cars inside with some bars to protect car to flip out)

 

The minigun? You can translate the language of an auger and adapt for the minigun, dont forget the battery to add and temperature added ...

 

The minigun attached on the roof of the buggy?

 

The van like the A-Team for 4 players ? There is an old TV SERIE "Who's the Boss" with the actor Tony Danza - The Van can it be white and transport at maximum 4 players including the driver.

 

 

The water system piping to drain water from lakes to the base? Water pump dont forget to improve that.

 

Dont Forget the Caravan similar to a mobile HQ and the Semi Truck.

 

The school bus for max six players also all vehicles noy motos wi added armoured spikes and machine gun.

 

Example. Caravan five players one machine gun attached on roof top of the from engine and other on roof top on back left, also one ladder on left, a door on the right, player can add maximum two or three solar pannels. 

 

The big lantern for scubba diving auit to explore the underwater is the same wich now is finnaly used on pipe guns wich is similar from the ligbt of 4x4. 

 

The semi truck for me is and will be the best vehicle in game fully armoured with spikes, also school bus can have some spikes too and barbed wire attached on both sides of caravan. So as you may understand players can choose wich mod of armour can place with or without spikes attached. Also some pois and some parking lots in tge city will have radiation so as tou may see all cities is completelly free of radiation so will be added in some buildings radiation. Imagine player with level one exploring the city will be limited if entering an radiated parking lot anf or house with the tickle sound of the radiation machine and damage. Also is missing the metro under the city, the train city and yhe old city vapor or old train on desert. Player will distinguish the lines were going to so it will be simar like the dirt roads and so, if you translate that la guage into rails will be more easy for player recognize the rails. Missing rats in the city and racoons the classic, dont miss that please. Keep up the excelent work and God bless you all. Also elevator for players 3x2, the cargo elevator wich player can park the vehicle is an 6x5.  Dont forget to add the video camera on tv. If player is inside the base if places camera were to look?? 

 Only on the tv, there is a mod to add that, qaiting for the two drones, and exploring the underwater sinked containers in a scubba diving suit with a big lantern and an oxigen tank I am waitong that for years since before alpha 16. Waiting for the.basic camouflage wich will be added on tuturial and player will use crouch mote times to do not alert zombies, if they see the zombies wi run into player on Day, so player will need fibers little wood and some clay to be undetected on zombies if they see player can be feral on running, and camouflage will degrated more times so now I understand the new three types of camouflage. 

[faatal]

5 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Sounds like the MF number @faatal is giving is the total number... some/many? of which may not be fixed before experimental.   I think what people want to know is the number of MF before experimental. 

 

Basically how many of those MF'n MF's need to be MF'n fixed before experimental release?

There is no hard number for what must be fixed for experimental. We prioritize them by Highest, High, Medium, Low. Highest and High would be ones we want fixed, but as many Mediums as we can.

 

Highest+High is currently 32.

[Gamida]

2 minutes ago, faatal said:

There is no hard number for what must be fixed for experimental. We prioritize them by Highest, High, Medium, Low. Highest and High would be ones we want fixed, but as many Mediums as we can.

 

Highest+High is currently 32.

Weather forecast?????

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Gamida (see edit history)

[jorbascrumps]

34 minutes ago, Sektor12 said:

snip

 

You're going to need an oxygen tank for how long you'll need to hold your breath for any of this.

[Guest]

@faatalApproximately how many MF do you need to fix for the release of the experimental A20?

[hiemfire]

13 hours ago, Khalagar said:

If you spawn in on day one and go "I want to play a build focusing on int!"  you have to spend more points on Int Attribute than the other attributes do, before you can even buy level 1 of your intended perk, because the first level of the int weapon stuff takes 3 or 5 int (can't remember off top of my head) before you can even put 1 point in it. By comparison, the other attributes can just put a point straight into club / shotgun damage right from level 1 without having to raise Strength / Perception / Agility etc

Batons are able to be perked into at 1 Int and A20 is rectifying the 0 baton options without parts it seems via the junk baton. Though I wouldn't put it past them to gate the junk baton behind baton parts, just fewer of them per weapon level and the junk baton not scraping to parts. First perk for Robotics unlocks for purchase at Int 4 iirc and the remaining levels for Robotics have a irregular positioning from Int 6 through Int 10.

 

5 hours ago, dcsobral said:

You realize Miner 69r does not change the amount of damage you inflict to zombies, don't you?

It does for the tools whos crafting is governed by it, and strength affects head shot damage done by those tools too.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, Kirill_226RUS said:

@faatalApproximately how many MF do you need to fix for the release of the experimental A20?

 He just posted that there is a minimum of 32. But that number will rise and fall over the next few weeks. Better to trust an emoji countdown than a MF countdown...

[SnowDog1942]

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

 He just posted that there is a minimum of 32. But that number will rise and fall over the next few weeks. Better to trust an emoji countdown than a MF countdown...

 

Unless it comes out next week!

 

lol

Edited November 2, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

Thanksgiving weekend would be great for the streamers, they would get some large numbers of viewer I'm sure.

The weekend before Christmas would be a good marketing ploy.

 

However, now would be good for me, just PM me with a testers key and nobody will ever know!  Well, just a few would know, from my squeals of laughter and joy! 

[dcsobral]

43 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

It does for the tools whos crafting is governed by it, and strength affects head shot damage done by those tools too.

I was just replying how it only affects block damage when I went to copy the XML and saw it does affect entity damage as well. So I wondered when that changed and it turns out it changed on alpha 18.  Damn, I'm usually better at picking up this sort of change.

 

Gah.

 

And Salvage Operations also affects the wrenching tools, which is great since they have a pretty good DPS and they don't have the stop-stamina-recovery effect on power attacks. Also, though this may have changed on alpha 19 (it was true for alpha 18), the wrench does not have grazing hits which makes it the ideal melee weapon against demolishers.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by dcsobral (see edit history)