Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Laz Man]

12 hours ago, spud42 said:

which one? im subscribed to Alec Steele and Wil Stelter

Shurap

[Roland]

13 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well why you don't like LBD? it was pretty fun in my opinion ( but honestly i just didn't care about skill trees because i still care more about aestetic). In valheim it's works pretty good so it could be done good for 7dtd too

I like LBD okay. I enjoy the freedom of using a central pool of xp for whatever I want to improve a bit better. I like playing how I like and focusing on what I think is fun but still being able to improve in the areas that I'd rather not grind up. The LBD in A16 was pretty good because you could grind or spend skill points as you chose.

 

My first choice would be to award xp based solely on time survived and not tie xp to any specific action at all. Simply have it be a reward for not dying. If you do die, the timer starts over for when you will earn your next xp payout. The problem with xp based on actions is that it incentivizes those actions in unnatural ways and instead of the focus being to live and survive in the world, the focus becomes doing specific highly effective actions to slurp up xp. The game becomes all about leveling up instead of living and surviving in the world. Remove the xp carrot and suddenly the only actions a player needs to do are the actions they want to do in order to survive. Without zombie kill xp you would only kill zombies when needed instead of hunting them down and farming them for precious progress currency.

 

The problem I have with LBD is that it exacerbates that distraction from natural play even more by encouraging players to grind unnaturally or even finding ways to set up an automatic process to level up while AFK. For a great look at the power of LBD to overwhelm the game and plunge players into an xp centric mindset just look at the current state of the trader quests. Trader quest progression is currently an LBD model. By doing quests you go up in quest tiers and progress. Look at how much questing now dominates the game and how players often feel compelled to spam multiple quests a day so they can grind up their "quest skill" with the trader and move from T1 to T5 as quickly as possible. Can anyone really point at grinding multiple quests a day to the exclusion of most other activities and call that natural and normal?

 

People used to explore POI's just because it was fun to clear them and explore. Since questing for the traders became LBD-like there seems to be a lot less exploring and clearing a city like there used to be and a lot more ignoring all POI's except the ones the traders send you to. People complain that they keep getting sent to the same POIs as if they couldn't go and explore a new POI without a quest. But the power of the LBD model for progressing up the quest tiers is so strong it wouldn't occur to most people to "waste their time" on non-quest POI's.

 

Do I have fun questing and rising in the ranks? Yes. So I don't hate LBD. I just recognize how XP-centric models change the player focus from living and surviving in a virtual world into a focus of simply acquiring xp and leveling up and I think it is too bad. I hear that @Boidster is possibly working on a cool time-based xp alternative. I wonder how that is coming along....?

[ltbrunt]

Building a new gaming PC mainly for the best experience of playing 7days to die. I think A20 is almost flawless. Do we have a rough estimate to when A21 will be released. I know the fun pimps motto is it is ready when it is ready which I totally agree with. But would like to know if it is the end of this year or sometime next year. I base all my game purchases around new version releases of 7DTD since this is the game I play 90% of the time. I know I will be grinding hard in Starfield which I hope does not conflict with the release of A21. 

[dcsobral]

1 hour ago, MJD24 said:

Unless that's unique to pipe shotguns and I don't remember it I know that's not true. One of the first things I did when I invested in Shotgun Messiah (or hobo or whatever) was to shoot a zombie to see if I got the stun and he just kept on coming. 

The stun from explosives works fine, but specced shotgun stuns don't always work, let alone unspecced.

Stun means slower, as far as 7d2d is concerned.

Edited March 5, 2022 by dcsobral (see edit history)

[Lord Morphleyes]

2 hours ago, MJD24 said:

Unless that's unique to pipe shotguns and I don't remember it I know that's not true. One of the first things I did when I invested in Shotgun Messiah (or hobo or whatever) was to shoot a zombie to see if I got the stun and he just kept on coming. 

The stun from explosives works fine, but specced shotgun stuns don't always work, let alone unspecced.

@dcsobral

THIS. It says shotguns get a stun but that doesn't happen

[Matt115]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

I like LBD okay. I enjoy the freedom of using a central pool of xp for whatever I want to improve a bit better. I like playing how I like and focusing on what I think is fun but still being able to improve in the areas that I'd rather not grind up. The LBD in A16 was pretty good because you could grind or spend skill points as you chose.

 

My first choice would be to award xp based solely on time survived and not tie xp to any specific action at all. Simply have it be a reward for not dying. If you do die, the timer starts over for when you will earn your next xp payout. The problem with xp based on actions is that it incentivizes those actions in unnatural ways and instead of the focus being to live and survive in the world, the focus becomes doing specific highly effective actions to slurp up xp. The game becomes all about leveling up instead of living and surviving in the world. Remove the xp carrot and suddenly the only actions a player needs to do are the actions they want to do in order to survive. Without zombie kill xp you would only kill zombies when needed instead of hunting them down and farming them for precious progress currency.

 

The problem I have with LBD is that it exacerbates that distraction from natural play even more by encouraging players to grind unnaturally or even finding ways to set up an automatic process to level up while AFK. For a great look at the power of LBD to overwhelm the game and plunge players into an xp centric mindset just look at the current state of the trader quests. Trader quest progression is currently an LBD model. By doing quests you go up in quest tiers and progress. Look at how much questing now dominates the game and how players often feel compelled to spam multiple quests a day so they can grind up their "quest skill" with the trader and move from T1 to T5 as quickly as possible. Can anyone really point at grinding multiple quests a day to the exclusion of most other activities and call that natural and normal?

 

People used to explore POI's just because it was fun to clear them and explore. Since questing for the traders became LBD-like there seems to be a lot less exploring and clearing a city like there used to be and a lot more ignoring all POI's except the ones the traders send you to. People complain that they keep getting sent to the same POIs as if they couldn't go and explore a new POI without a quest. But the power of the LBD model for progressing up the quest tiers is so strong it wouldn't occur to most people to "waste their time" on non-quest POI's.

 

Do I have fun questing and rising in the ranks? Yes. So I don't hate LBD. I just recognize how XP-centric models change the player focus from living and surviving in a virtual world into a focus of simply acquiring xp and leveling up and I think it is too bad. I hear that @Boidster is possibly working on a cool time-based xp alternative. I wonder how that is coming along....?

Rly idk how @meganoth cut posts in parts using quoting. 

1. Well in my opinion LBD can be good if it will be made in vaheilm style : you are running  24/7? you will be literaly flash but you will terrible in mining. You shot a lof? you can relaoad faster but you can't hit zombie harder using a cube.  Just throw "skill point" into bin.

2. I agree about grinding - people will always trying to make this easier to level as fast as they can. But maybe if it will be made like : you doing x so you are good in doing x could be good option. 

3. About traders. Well it is true - it is overpower. But until we don't get story i think is the best motivation - TLOUS main hero was doing jobs , main hero of fallout was doing jobs so this is just typical way of survival in post apo universes. So this the most logical playstyle. 

4. Well now  you have two options: doing quests for traders or try survive as long as you can (or get bored).  there is no story or bosses or lore to find so i understand why doing quests is so popular

5. Honestly - "exploring"  most POI's was never  fun for me. don't make me wrong - they looks rly good but from logical point of view there is no reason to go inside them example: military base? guns so it is worthy to looting , book shop? books . DIY shops? - tools.  Cementary, church nothing ( i know there is tons of secrets but still it is better too loot shop right?)  houses are early stage place of looting etc. I know i'm controverisal now but : most POI's without lore are backgroud for me . But i apprecient that they added them - in dreadout 2 you can find newsstand but you can go inside them but looks greate, shops, fields markets add more into this game from "settin" point of view.

So quest "force" you to go inside cementary etc because without quest it will be wast of time - why go to somewhere where you will find 5 bullets, bones and junk when you can go inside bookstore.  But i don't understand this people complaing - i don't see a reason to go somewhere don't mean i think something must be done about that.

6. Well XP centic in often problem in games and can be exploited but skyrim can be good example : you want to be the best mage in skyrim? you have to using spells, you want to make better sword? you have to make sword etc. Ofc everything can be exploited - alchemy for example but it is players choice if they will find  this and use this. 

I think if would be done nothing to change trader quests but  story would be added people will make story just because this is "main" reason what to do. 

 

And about kiling zombies : well that's why people in TWD just ignoring them - there is no point to kill them most of time. This same thing in metal gear survival. I think it is just good- why to risk and waste ammo/durability for nohing?  I think it is common trope in zombie universes. In DL2 i don't see point to kiling normal zombies if this is not necceary - like doing quest or zombies are near of crate.  In l4d2 sometimes it is just better sometimes to ignore them that waste ammo and time. Well this can be use for another game right?

Fun facts ; it is better to not level up in oblivionXD 

 

 

 

 

[faatal]

3 hours ago, ltbrunt said:

Building a new gaming PC mainly for the best experience of playing 7days to die. I think A20 is almost flawless. Do we have a rough estimate to when A21 will be released. I know the fun pimps motto is it is ready when it is ready which I totally agree with. But would like to know if it is the end of this year or sometime next year. I base all my game purchases around new version releases of 7DTD since this is the game I play 90% of the time. I know I will be grinding hard in Starfield which I hope does not conflict with the release of A21. 

It depends when all the main features of a21 get done. We don't have any giant features like the RWG overhaul in a20, so hopefully it will take less time than a20, but we can't say for sure as many of the features are still big changes like the water overhaul.

[bdubyah]

Any plans to tone down the absolute ridiculous amount of books you are getting from newspaper stands at the moment? Just watching Woodle go into a city day 1 and almost finish multiple book series by the end of the day. Seems a bit broken. I know they spawn the "lesser" series but it still feels like too much.

[beerfly]

13 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Any plans to tone down the absolute ridiculous amount of books you are getting from newspaper stands at the moment? Just watching Woodle go into a city day 1 and almost finish multiple book series by the end of the day. Seems a bit broken. I know they spawn the "lesser" series but it still feels like too much.

Watched it recently.

 

On one of my savegames, the ratio between books and papers is 1:10 roughly. And till day 46 now, which with lucky looter 3lvl  and lucky goggles started to progres to no more than 3:10. 

 

I am unlucky ass.

[Demonoid74]

I also seem to get paper 9 out of 10 times or more often from scavenging...even with lucky looter and goggles...
Then I moved my base to the snow and around those cities , it seems to be better , around 25% of the time there to get a book...with the above bonuses as well

[Babuchas]

There is something odd going on on those series where people find a book in almost every newspaper stand or mailbox. In 2 different series, with very high loot stage (over 200), i found a book maybe 25% of the time. So if they tone it down i guess i wont be able to find a single book until i get to lootstage 250...

[Callum123456789]

1 hour ago, Babuchas said:

There is something odd going on on those series where people find a book in almost every newspaper stand or mailbox. In 2 different series, with very high loot stage (over 200), i found a book maybe 25% of the time. So if they tone it down i guess i wont be able to find a single book until i get to lootstage 250...

the spear hunter, needle and thread and the the rangers guide to archery books seem a lot less common in the late game but are very common in the late game its kinda weird

[beerfly]

3 hours ago, Babuchas said:

There is something odd going on on those series where people find a book in almost every newspaper stand or mailbox. In 2 different series, with very high loot stage (over 200), i found a book maybe 25% of the time. So if they tone it down i guess i wont be able to find a single book until i get to lootstage 250...

Random loot is random loot

 

Which is the best part, disappointing sometimes indeed, but it is rarely boring.

 

Got a steel tools book at day 9, at the same savegame I talk about above. From a trash bag. (no mods)

 

 

[Guppycur]

Oh the siren call of a conversation about lbd.

 

Lbd is great.  Tfp's implementation of it was not.

 

It makes total sense that if I grind stone axes I become a great stone axe maker.  It makes zero sense that I can then spend the points gained from stone axe grinding on learning how to make concrete.

 

[meganoth]

12 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Rly idk how @meganoth cut posts in parts using quoting.

 

This way:

* Put cursor into the quote where you want to cut

* Hit <return> key multiple times and fast.

* If you don't succeed (happens in half the cases) delete the unwanted lines and try again. If you succeed you have two quote blocks now, again delete the unwanted empty lines.

 

1 hour ago, beerfly said:

Random loot is random loot

 

Which is the best part, disappointing sometimes indeed, but it is rarely boring.

 

Got a steel tools book at day 9, at the same savegame I talk about above. From a trash bag. (no mods)

 

 

 

I don't know. At some time early in the game (probably player lvl<10) you find rangers/spear/needle books in masses in the newspaper boxes around town, then it seems to actually decrease to a low probability.

 

That looting is random just means that problems, if they exist, are not easy to prove.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[beerfly]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't know. At some time early in the game (probably player lvl<10) you find rangers/spear/needle books in masses in the newspaper boxes around town, then it seems to actually decrease to a low probability.

 

That looting is random just means that problems, if they exist, are not easy to prove.

 

Well said, hope people not accept it as problem, balance is still a WIP, till gold. 

[Matt115]

So for know we know about 3 big things : armor system, water and bandits

 and few small things like : vans and sleeper. I miss  something ?

[JCrook1028]

16 hours ago, ltbrunt said:

Building a new gaming PC mainly for the best experience of playing 7days to die. I think A20 is almost flawless. Do we have a rough estimate to when A21 will be released. I know the fun pimps motto is it is ready when it is ready which I totally agree with. But would like to know if it is the end of this year or sometime next year. I base all my game purchases around new version releases of 7DTD since this is the game I play 90% of the time. I know I will be grinding hard in Starfield which I hope does not conflict with the release of A21. 

You're kidding right? They haven't even really started on it and you expect a rough timeline on completion? Go ask a psychic or astrologer, you'll get the same level of accuracy.

[Blake_]

16 hours ago, Roland said:

I like LBD okay. I enjoy the freedom of using a central pool of xp for whatever I want to improve a bit better. I like playing how I like and focusing on what I think is fun but still being able to improve in the areas that I'd rather not grind up. The LBD in A16 was pretty good because you could grind or spend skill points as you chose.

 

My first choice would be to award xp based solely on time survived and not tie xp to any specific action at all. Simply have it be a reward for not dying. If you do die, the timer starts over for when you will earn your next xp payout. The problem with xp based on actions is that it incentivizes those actions in unnatural ways and instead of the focus being to live and survive in the world, the focus becomes doing specific highly effective actions to slurp up xp. The game becomes all about leveling up instead of living and surviving in the world. Remove the xp carrot and suddenly the only actions a player needs to do are the actions they want to do in order to survive. Without zombie kill xp you would only kill zombies when needed instead of hunting them down and farming them for precious progress currency.

 

The problem I have with LBD is that it exacerbates that distraction from natural play even more by encouraging players to grind unnaturally or even finding ways to set up an automatic process to level up while AFK. For a great look at the power of LBD to overwhelm the game and plunge players into an xp centric mindset just look at the current state of the trader quests. Trader quest progression is currently an LBD model. By doing quests you go up in quest tiers and progress. Look at how much questing now dominates the game and how players often feel compelled to spam multiple quests a day so they can grind up their "quest skill" with the trader and move from T1 to T5 as quickly as possible. Can anyone really point at grinding multiple quests a day to the exclusion of most other activities and call that natural and normal?

 

People used to explore POI's just because it was fun to clear them and explore. Since questing for the traders became LBD-like there seems to be a lot less exploring and clearing a city like there used to be and a lot more ignoring all POI's except the ones the traders send you to. People complain that they keep getting sent to the same POIs as if they couldn't go and explore a new POI without a quest. But the power of the LBD model for progressing up the quest tiers is so strong it wouldn't occur to most people to "waste their time" on non-quest POI's.

 

Do I have fun questing and rising in the ranks? Yes. So I don't hate LBD. I just recognize how XP-centric models change the player focus from living and surviving in a virtual world into a focus of simply acquiring xp and leveling up and I think it is too bad. I hear that @Boidster is possibly working on a cool time-based xp alternative. I wonder how that is coming along....?

Summary.... enjoy the game for what it offers or switch games you say? Does reading your scroll counts as enjoying the game? I'm roleplaying a reader at the moment.

[Adam the Waster]

13 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Any plans to tone down the absolute ridiculous amount of books you are getting from newspaper stands at the moment? Just watching Woodle go into a city day 1 and almost finish multiple book series by the end of the day. Seems a bit broken. I know they spawn the "lesser" series but it still feels like too much.

yeah but at least its only a set amount of books
spears, Cloths (The worst book IMO), and Bows

if anything they should buff book shelves and add Just a ton of paper in male boxes. Maybe even a XP book that gives some? idk

Im trying to get my game too run better cuz it was playing nice now its being a Sack of Potatos

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

So for know we know about 3 big things : armor system, water and bandits

 and few small things like : vans and sleeper. I miss  something ?

i saw a video on some stuff so i take it with MAJOR amount of salt |
ill link it

Spoiler

if your lazy like me heres what the video says

• more tier 6 missions
• Flamethrower (Not sure)
• Flares
• Plasma baton (I knew it and people looked at me like a idiot!)
• wasteland overhaul (adding radiation and such)
• some new modes (like rad Protection, Electical melee mods, cryo and Fire (i call BS on the last 3)
• Gasser zombie
• story mode
• Random event manager
• crafting overhaul (WIP)
  
  So take that with Mine of salt....

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

Summary.... enjoy the game for what it offers or switch games you say? Does reading your scroll counts as enjoying the game? I'm roleplaying a reader at the moment.

Only if you have the game running in the background while you are reading. 

[Demonoid74]

I still think they should add in random notes , letters etc as loot...Peoples messages , dairy pages...
Could have some random funny @%$# , or survivors stories to provide interesting reading and something else to collect in game...

 

Could have the Funpimps write a bunch , have a contest for the forum to submit notes , pages , stories and add the best ones in as well...

[bdubyah]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't know. At some time early in the game (probably player lvl<10) you find rangers/spear/needle books in masses in the newspaper boxes around town, then it seems to actually decrease to a low probability.

 

That looting is random just means that problems, if they exist, are not easy to prove.

 

It definitely seems worse real early game. I started up a new game last night and wandered into a small city right off the bat and hit every stand I saw, which was maybe 10 or so. I pulled a book out of at least half of them. Yes, as I said the first time, they are the lower end books, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken. And just because you can't find them in there as higher GS doesn't mean it isn't broken. It's more broken finding them day 1 than it is later into a game.

3 minutes ago, Demonoid74 said:

I still think they should add in random notes , letters etc as loot...Peoples messages , dairy pages...
Could have some random funny @%$# , or survivors stories to provide interesting reading and something else to collect in game...

 

Could have the Funpimps write a bunch , have a contest for the forum to submit notes , pages , stories and add the best ones in as well...

They really should do some things like this. I know they are pushing for gold and aren't looking to add "fluff", but this sort of stuff would be nice.

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Blake_ said:

Summary.... enjoy the game for what it offers or switch games you say? Does reading your scroll counts as enjoying the game? I'm roleplaying a reader at the moment.

i like long posts XD

1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

yeah but at least its only a set amount of books
spears, Cloths (The worst book IMO), and Bows

if anything they should buff book shelves and add Just a ton of paper in male boxes. Maybe even a XP book that gives some? idk

Im trying to get my game too run better cuz it was playing nice now its being a Sack of Potatos

i saw a video on some stuff so i take it with MAJOR amount of salt |
ill link it

  Reveal hidden contents

if your lazy like me heres what the video says

• more tier 6 missions
• Flamethrower (Not sure)
• Flares
• Plasma baton (I knew it and people looked at me like a idiot!)
• wasteland overhaul (adding radiation and such)
• some new modes (like rad Protection, Electical melee mods, cryo and Fire (i call BS on the last 3)
• Gasser zombie
• story mode
• Random event manager
• crafting overhaul (WIP)
  
  So take that with Mine of salt....
•  

 

Well flamethrower looks like typical "leftover" from previouse planes, rest of them can have sens but Story will be in A22 probably

4 minutes ago, Demonoid74 said:

I still think they should add in random notes , letters etc as loot...Peoples messages , dairy pages...
Could have some random funny @%$# , or survivors stories to provide interesting reading and something else to collect in game...

 

Could have the Funpimps write a bunch , have a contest for the forum to submit notes , pages , stories and add the best ones in as well...

i'm writing about that from long time so i agree

Random question but : 

There is any diffrent game in development by TFP? 

I mean - i remember post about something like that but i'm not sure if this is just my imagination or true

[Adam the Waster]

27 minutes ago, Demonoid74 said:

I still think they should add in random notes , letters etc as loot...Peoples messages , dairy pages...
Could have some random funny @%$# , or survivors stories to provide interesting reading and something else to collect in game...

 

Could have the Funpimps write a bunch , have a contest for the forum to submit notes , pages , stories and add the best ones in as well...

you don't want Snowdog too do that

There will be TOO many notes at the diamond gentleman's club