Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[MechanicalLens]

deleted; no need

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

This is a good point and when changes are made everyone should remember that it wasn’t because TFP succumbed to a group of whiners but because they felt it important to fix unintentional behavior. 
 

When @faatal ended the steep slope exploit, he didn’t do it to stop players from enjoying their play style nor due to the excessive complaints that were posted about the exploit. He did it because it was a pathing bug and a collision issue that needed fixing— pure and simple. 
 

When plates were reduced to 25% hp the floating base people were pretty unhappy and many of them even said the change would be the end of that type of base.  If TFP decides to go forward with that plan it will be because it is how they intend the blocks in the game to function and not because they are at war with players and their strategies. 

Roland - i will give  example. They  made crafting steel tool ineffcient because it is much easier  to find steel tools that make them. Before  dunno in a17 you could get steel tools very soon and looting was less  usefull. now mining and advance crafting is useless because it is easier to find complited so they forced people to looting. I  honestly hate  this- why? because after 60+ h while playing with my friend coudn't find anywhere beaker. And another problem- passive defence is pointless now- why? let say you will make  10 lenght spike filed around you base- zombie will only focusing on  2- 3 places in your defence   like  X mean spike

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX    XXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

so still zombie AI is too much smart 

[meganoth]

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Roland - i will give  example. They  made crafting steel tool ineffcient because it is much easier  to find steel tools that make them. Before  dunno in a17 you could get steel tools very soon and looting was less  usefull. now mining and advance crafting is useless because it is easier to find complited so they forced people to looting. I  honestly hate  this- why? because after 60+ h while playing with my friend coudn't find anywhere beaker. And another problem- passive defence is pointless now- why? let say you will make  10 lenght spike filed around you base- zombie will only focusing on  2- 3 places in your defence   like  X mean spike

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX    XXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

so still zombie AI is too much smart 

 

No, you haven't found the right way to use spike traps.

 

Plant them in the ground, make their top be level with the ground and zombies will treat them like a plane floor and walk all over them.

 

[Roland]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:24 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

@Any developer - I saw recently on a mod to reduce zombie digging damage and slow them down, a disclaimer stating the reason digging could only be lowered and not removed is because of hard coding.

 

Can we expect the flexibility of this either being exposed to modders within this alpha, next, or gold as an added option to disable this?

 

It's another annoying addition that would be good to be able to disable or at least mod out.

 

"Digging" is not an AI Task that can be excluded or altered, Rather it is an integrated part of the pathing code that determines how zombies get to the player. That's not to say that @faatal couldn't do something to allow the option but it might be more work than they are willing to do if it involves rewriting the pathing code rather than simply editing a few values.

[Blake_]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX    XXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX

 

My strategy is usually:

 

 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXX                                                                         XXXXXXXXXXXXX

                       XXXXXXX                                                    XXXXXX

         XXXXX                                             X                                           XXXXX

     XX      XX                                                 X                                    XX      XX         

     XXXXXX                                                    X                                   XXXXXX                                                                      

                                                                        X

                                                       XXX   X X X

  X                                                                                                               X                  

     X                                                                                                       X

       X                                  XXX          XXX                                      X   

            XXX XXXXXXXXXXXX                 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 

                                             X      xxxxx   X        

                                                   XXX

[PoloPoPo]

Quick question considering the book Art of mining Vol. 3:

 

It says it gives 10 % more ressources when mining with an axe or pick axe under the influence of coffee.

 

Does that mean this does not give 10 % more when mining with an auger? I have always used coffee with an auger... turns out this might have been useless all the hours? 😄

Or has this been changed to A20?

[Jay_ombie]

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

+1

 

TFP does such a nice job with the HUD beeing minimalistic but then they slap that markers right into our face. GIve us the option to turn it on/off please, it´s enough to see it in the compass. No need for an immersion breaker in the middle of the screen. Especially the quick waypoint is annoying af.

 

Also, update does what? Can´t find any info on that.

 

I am interested in a clock remover. I want to have to rely on the position of the sun in the game to govern time. Its beautifully placed there and is such a atmospherically thing to have to do in game I am not sure why its not a default requirement..

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

No, you haven't found the right way to use spike traps.

 

Plant them in the ground, make their top be level with the ground and zombies will treat them like a plane floor and walk all over them.

 

Yep i was testing this too and this most of  the time ( except one time on A19  in flat- in this situation i hadn't doors only tons of spikes and this works dunno why but zombie only focused on exit )

[ltbrunt]

I think A20 is damn near flawless. Now give me bandits and I am all set. 

[Mahnogard]

1 hour ago, PoloPoPo said:

Quick question considering the book Art of mining Vol. 3:

 

It says it gives 10 % more ressources when mining with an axe or pick axe under the influence of coffee.

 

Does that mean this does not give 10 % more when mining with an auger? I have always used coffee with an auger... turns out this might have been useless all the hours? 😄

Or has this been changed to A20?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the XML the perk is tagged for miningTool, and augers are tagged as miningTool so I'm going to say that it does affect augers.

[POCKET951]

2 hours ago, ltbrunt said:

I think A20 is damn near flawless. Now give me bandits and I am all set. 

I wouldn't call it flawless. There are still alot of bugs and maybe even a bit of balance issues to iron out. (Rarity of acid,beakers,sewing kits for example)

 

Also making .44 less rare and making it so you don't loot containers to have nothing in it/be empty.

 

If you Lootnsomething and it is empty, why didn't it just tell you it was empty?

 

 

Alpha 20 overall is really solid and stable, and as I said some things still need a bit of fine tuning and alot of bugs still need fixing .

Overall 9/10 release

 

 

[bdubyah]

19 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

 

If you Lootnsomething and it is empty, why didn't it just tell you it was empty?

 

 

How would your character know it is empty before you opened it?

[Quantum Blue]

54 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

How would your character know it is empty before you opened it?

 

Because the lid or door might have been left opened?  ; - )

[Quantum Blue]

An evaluation of 7D2D Day 'Cycle' Time

 

A small comparison table:

 

Day Cycle     Real              Trader                  # of
Setting         Time             Vender              7th Day
(Mins)         (Hours)        Supply Drop        Hordes

60                    7                     2                       1
60                  14                     4                       2
60                  21                     6                       3
60                  28                     8                       4

120                  7                     0                       0
120                14                     2                       1
120                21                     3                       1
120                28                     4                       2

 

7 Days to Die is not a game where any/all time slices are 'tension' 'equal'.  Because it has 'events' that drive player actions.  (Almost always.  Unless you change settings...)  Because of this, players are nudged into preparing for these events.  And, also not just because of this, but because almost every game has what is called a net positive time effect.  Meaning, most actions are rewarded with positive effects, more/better objects, etc.  Because that allows to game creators to increase the pressure/threat/tension, so that the player can continue with more actions, usually augmented with rewards to make those more difficult situations easier.  (And it continues...)

 

Something the table shows is that regardless of the time setting (assuming all other settings being default or equal) that players will have the same number of drops or vendor/trader changes before the next horde night.  (30 min is not exactly true right away, but it does end up being the same after some time.)  It also shows that the 120 min cycle setting allows for twice as much time to be prepared for the next horde.  And, because, 7D2D is a net positive time effect game, it will almost always result in a better than 2x factor for being ready.

 

Having said that, I also realize that if a player relies solely or mostly on Supply Drops, Vending Machines (for Food), and Traders (especially for ammo) that the game might appear to be more difficult.  But, that almost seems to ignore all the additional time for farming, hunting, crafting, etc.  An analogy for me would be setting the experience setting to provide 200% experience, but then only assigning perks to things you never or almost never use.

 

I know 90 minute and 120 minute settings make the game easier.  (90 being half as much as 120.)  Just like I now know that the 30 minute setting makes the 'harder'.  You are always scrambling to get ready for the first horde.  And, you realize that choices need to be made very quickly and that time is extremely precious and cannot be wasted.  120 minute setting is very much the opposite.  If I make a mistake, almost always no big deal to fix.  Lots of time.  I can craft twice as many bullets every day on 120 vs 60. (And half as many on the 30 minute setting.)  Because it's not just about crafting time, I have twice as much time to go find brass, after I emptied the trader of all of his ammo.)  And I will have almost twice as much experience for each horde as I do on 60 minutes.  (That's not speculation.  I do.)

 

Now, you could posit that after 14 hours real time my two characters will have roughly the same amount of experience at either setting.  (Assuming settings are the same, and that my playstyle is the same).  And actually, it works out that that seems to be 'close'.  (Level / GameStage / LootStage)  What it is not saying is that my 60 minute character has had to survive 2 hordes (and the tension that goes with that), while my 120 minute character has had only one.  Yes, my 60 minute character has twice as many loot drops, but all loot drops are not that great (especially having been tweaked/rebalanced again), and is almost never close to making up for you needed to use for the horde.  (If it did, you would never need to do anything else...)  And, yes, the 60 min cycle character is getting more experience from the doubling of the hordes, but it doesn't make up for the extra z's and other activities that provide experience on the other 6 days that my 120 minute cycle character gets twice as much time to do.  My 120 minute cycle horde battles are definitely easier than the same horde battle for the 60 minute cycle character.  (And, as I mentioned, tension is not the same.  And, 30 minute cycle tension is just too crazy for me.  Maybe Aldranon, JaxTeller, KhaineGB, etc.)

 

The 60 minute cycle setting seems to be extremely well balanced with regards to 'tension' and 'relaxation'.  (That's kind of a 'duh' as it is probably the basis for just about everything TFP does.)

 

BTW: This is not an admonition or anything about what cycle anyone uses or how to play.  I would even promote trying 90 or 120 or even the 30 minute settings.  One of the reasons 7D2D might be so successful is because it has so many ways for people to experience.

 

Just trying to help provide a foundation for conversations.

[Aero]

I don't know if this is a bug that many people have and being worked on, but...

 

I was going deeper into the big city I'm having my base at and started noticing that certain parts of the road, small objects etc popped in and out again. Some for a brief second, some for a bit longer and some stayed. It seemed like the new tile system was trying to blend in 2 choices in 1 spot.

 

I'll send in 3 screenshots. Hope that works.

[Mahnogard]

1 hour ago, Quantum Blue said:

I would even promote trying 90 or 120 or even the 30 minute settings.  One of the reasons 7D2D might be so successful is because it has so many ways for people to experience.

It's definitely why I still play. Mods help with that too. I recently installed Red Eagle's mod that adds additional day duration settings as well as how many hours are night. I've been playing 180min days and I'm really enjoying it for the way I want to play right now.  Prior to that, I found that 120 was my sweet spot.

 

But the biggest differences for me have been the many other ptions that TFP added over time, like being able to turn off Blood Moon. In fact, I remember the debates back when some people were asking for that option, and lots of people saying "that would remove the whole point of the game". But the point of the game is to play it, as far as I'm concerned. "How" doesn't matter so much (unless you're giving feedback, which I generally only do when I feel it applies to more than just the way I play). And because of all these options that TFP have given us, and the extremely moddable xml framework, I'm still playing it. It's not because the vanilla "intended" experience isn't good enough - it's great! I just don't always want to play that way.

 

I just started (another) new save because I got an idea for a mini castle I want to try with land claim size set to 21. I have Blood Moon on default at the moment for this save, but if I don't think I can weather it, I'll turn it off or set it to something else. I survived a tornado last year and I still don't do so well with building something and possibly having it destroyed, and having that option and many others is why I'm spending my holiday vacation immersed in A20 instead of playing something else. Besides, there's something immersive and satisfying about the process of exploring, looting, boppin' zombos on their heads, then coming home and mining, cooking and building. Routine is nice, even in the apocalypse.

[Quantum Blue]

1 hour ago, Mahnogard said:

It's definitely why I still play. Mods help with that too. I recently installed Red Eagle's mod that adds additional day duration settings as well as how many hours are night. I've been playing 180min days and I'm really enjoying it for the way I want to play right now.

 

I absolutely agree.  (When I am not using all defaults and no mods to help with bug testing) I have been a huge fan of JaxTeller's 'Ravenhurst', KhaineGB's 'When Darkness Falls' (and love the subtitle ref to 'Aliens'), SubQuakes 'Undead Legacy', (A name I don't remember) who had a Wizard/Sorcery version of 7D2D, and countless others.

 

Those overhauls, mods, and modlets not only show the massive diversity and ingenuity with the fanbase - but the 'willingness' of TFP to suffer some 'inconvenience' when people post errors and bug reports while using mods, to allow it to continue, and to have such an open framework to continue.  (It's not perfect, but it sure is in the top of game creators that do.)

 

I, myself, took a little break, but am back, because of advances in the game AND because I myself do some xpath editing and modlets to kind of tweak the game for me.  (Like bird's nests that destruct after purloining, etc.) 

[MechanicalLens]

2 hours ago, Quantum Blue said:

This is not an admonition or anything about what cycle anyone uses or how to play.  I would even promote trying 90 or 120 or even the 30 minute settings.  One of the reasons 7D2D might be so successful is because it has so many ways for people to experience.

 

 

Agreed 100%. Plus you're not limited to these settings, with some small XML tweaking you can add in custom daylengths. I'm currently playing on 75 minute days and I find it to be the healthy middle ground I've been looking for between the non-stop chaos of 60 minute days while also offering the opportunity for the player to smell the roses every once in a while like in 90 minute days, with the latter I've been playing for almost 5k hours but have since dropped permanently.

[Survior]

On 12/5/2021 at 1:15 AM, bachgaman said:

It is enough just to reduce the amount of meat from them. And to reduce the number of wild animals, it is really strange sometimes to observe a couple of bears and three pumas in one place.

 That's a horrible idea, you kill an animal and you can't even fill your gut as it is. If you kill a bear you shouldn't have to worry about food for a couple of weeks.

[MechanicalLens]

Have any of you ever played for 10 hours straight, to the point where you were too exhausted to continue and had to log off to retain your sanity?

 

Oh look, a Mo Power Electronics Store is across the street. Maybe just one sneak peak inside...

 

[stupid]

I finally got a chance to play A20, and damn there was a lot of work put into this. The new city prefabs look like actual city architecture, and everything fits together nicely. Clearing an entire town solo used to be easy, but I'll probably never be able to do that again with the size and complexity they offer now, which is cool.

 

With how much content the game has, I think the trader missions could have a lot more variety, like destroying a radio tower, repairing a structure, refueling some generators, planting some food, or building and installing some turrets at the trader post. Maybe there could be some items which could only be obtained through trader missions.

 

The one trope I'm not thrilled with are all of the surprise attacks behind every closet door, or trying to avoid the trigger which causes everything to wake up and fall from the ceiling at once, or other beginner traps. I would like to come across a regular building that seems empty, but is home to just one very nasty creature- so nasty that you would consider coming back later, or maybe using your construction skills to cordon off its paths with blocks and bars to give you an actual chance at killing it. Difficulty shouldn't be confined to turning every POI into a labyrinth.

[Tmodloader]

There definitely feels like some sort of tension mission from the game. The A20 update is a huge step in the right direction as POIs now provide some pretty good scares, even still however I feel rarely truly threatened (without very gimmicky settings). I hope bandits fill that void (seen from a moderator or something that tier 6 may be bandit camps as the final and hardest tier?) and that their raiding is interesting. I have strong worries about the bandits however as that seems near impossible to code, no game has ever done that. Some have "raids" on your areas, but no heavy construction survival game like this. I wonder if fun pimps will be able to achieve it. I definitely worry the bandits will end up being dropped because of how no game even remotely in this genre has ever successfully simulated pvp-like enemies. 

[Aldranon]

54 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

There definitely feels like some sort of tension mission from the game. The A20 update is a huge step in the right direction as POIs now provide some pretty good scares, even still however I feel rarely truly threatened (without very gimmicky settings). I hope bandits fill that void (seen from a moderator or something that tier 6 may be bandit camps as the final and hardest tier?) and that their raiding is interesting. I have strong worries about the bandits however as that seems near impossible to code, no game has ever done that. Some have "raids" on your areas, but no heavy construction survival game like this. I wonder if fun pimps will be able to achieve it. I definitely worry the bandits will end up being dropped because of how no game even remotely in this genre has ever successfully simulated pvp-like enemies. 

 

Bandits will (Should) be the ultimate threat.

 

Early on, you should see 1-2 that only use melee weapons, but eventually, groups of 8-12 fully armed and armored bandits with extensive combat experience will be encountered. 

Maybe some visual que that shows they are high leveled bandits would be good.   (All the same uniform?)

For a SP the only good option will be (should be) to run/drive away quickly from a large group of heavily armed bandits.

 

If a SP can take on the very worst the game can throw at them, some people will stop playing as its "boring". 

[Quantum Blue]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

Have any of you ever played for 10 hours straight, to the point where you were too exhausted to continue and had to log off to retain your sanity?

 

Just about every single day.  ~14 hour 7D2d days are very common.  I have even had a couple of 48+ hour sessions.  (Eating at desk - but paused for quick BR breaks.)  And while I have done that with a few other games as well, I have 10x as much time invested in 7DTD as any of those other games.  (Ok, Civ 3/4 only 5x as much...)

 

My problem is I can't usually quit until after a horde night.  (Which is why I usually have ~14 hour 7D2D days.) I won't be able to sleep because of the 'tension' that keeps building until I know I have passed it.  It's a reason I find it hard to play on extended time cycle settings.  At least 120 min cycles allow me to do a week in 14 hours.  The 90 min setting means I either quit after 10.5 and go nuts trying to do something else or I do 21 hours.  While I can get by on 4 hours sleep, 2 or 3 a few days of 3 or less in a row aren't 'fun'.

 

Like stupid's message a couple above, I also find the new cities absolutely amazing.  btw - one of my normal playstyle 'things' is - I salvage just about everything.  Except structure.  And when a version gets long and there's some time before a new version pops, I start fixing POI's.  I learn a lot about them, the POI editor, and all kinds of useful little tricks to fix things.  You know, like invisible blocks...  (I also have a little OCD and like shiny/new things.)

 

I should also mention I am super blessed with a wonderful wife, who just retired herself, and is not a gamer (DANG!) who allows me the freedom to play as much as I want.

[AndrewT]

Ok fun pimps alpha 20 on the 6th and alpha 20 stable less than a month later for Christmas BEST PRESENT EVER yall did a fantastic job putting all the work into it to make it happen