Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[dcsobral]

On 2/21/2022 at 5:33 AM, meganoth said:

 

Put yourself into the shoes of a game designer (not a graphics designer, I assume you know the difference). Imagine you built this game, designed all the rules the player has to follow. I.e. can't fly by himself, moves at that max speed, has hitpoints and dies when he looses them all, all of those are in essence rules limiting the player. You built dangers into your game and ways to overcome those dangers, achievable with effort. You made dangers and remedies balanced and bath in the glory of a successful game.

 

Would you now keep something you consider an exploitable item unchanged in the game if you think it just makes the dangers you built into the game vanish as soon as the player knows this item exists? If that item broke an important rule you designed the game with? If you see players on youtube just sitting safe in their horde base making fun of the ineffectual zombies in this game that don't even have a chance to reach them? Do you really think you would need some forum users complaining to get you into action?

 

I can only repeat what Roland said multiple times: Every day dozens of suggestions turn up in the forum and it is highly likely that one of those has guessed what the developers had planned all along. Doesn't mean the suggestion was causing that decision. Often suggestions are even the opposite of other suggestions, no wonder that one will come true.

 

I realize in hindsight it was not obvious from my comment, but devs were not included in "other people". Maybe some of them are included in it, maybe not -- I don't know. But it is my belief that something like this, which has been known for multiple alphas, might never be "fixed" if it didn't draw a crowd of people getting up in arms about it. The old joke goes that Microsoft will call a bug a "feature" if they don't want to spend resources to fix it, but joke works because there's a lot of truth to it. Even more so because there's a solid real world explanation for it, as evidenced by cattle grids.

 

Anyway, I'm bemoaning the loss of valid uses as a result of fixing an exploit. It's (edit) not the first time such thing happens, it's not the first time I complain about it either.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by dcsobral (see edit history)

[Roland]

51 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

I realize in hindsight it was not obvious from my comment, but devs were not included in "other people". Maybe some of them are included in it, maybe not -- I don't know. But it is my belief that something like this, which has been known for multiple alphas, might never be "fixed" if it didn't draw a crowd of people getting up in arms about it. The old joke goes that Microsoft will call a bug a "feature" if they don't want to spend resources to fix it, but joke works because there's a lot of truth to it. Even more so because there's a solid real world explanation for it, as evidenced by cattle grids.

 

Anyway, I'm bemoaning the loss of valid uses as a result of fixing an exploit. It's the first time such thing happens, it's not the first time I complain about it either.

 

 

It's true that it often takes more time finding an exploit that might exist and then consistently reproducing it than it does fixing that exploit once it is found. I doubt TFP would spend the time and resources on "discovery" if there weren't already thousands of users doing it for them. When an exploit is discovered and comes to light and reproduced over and over again on video and shared so that the time consuming part of it is done, then often it is like a gift-wrapped little present that the devs can spend a bit of time on to fix.

 

What I wonder is how many people have pet little exploits they haven't ever revealed to anyone...heheh

 

On 2/20/2022 at 8:12 AM, Grandpa Minion said:

Today is not the same as X years ago. When 7d2d came out it was a unique concept with many great ideas. I think it is fair to say in modern times you can't compare those ideas from the past to what it is today since it has been many years from the start of 7d2d. Things change and my recommendation would be for them to get up to speed on the new trends that players are looking for. 

 

Well, it's a bit more than simply ideas from the past. They were pledge promises from the past used to entice people to support the game. Regardless of how trends have changed, TFP has an obligation to stick to those original promises and then if they have time and resources enough to pimp the game further then great. So fun ideas that might become trendy after those original promises were made might be something they will add or they may just decide to push to finish this game and put some trendy stuff in the next one. But they aren't going to replace old pledge promises with the today's flavor of the month just because that is what players are currently looking for.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, dcsobral said:

I realize in hindsight it was not obvious from my comment, but devs were not included in "other people".

 

That is how I understood you. And my point is that those other people complaining has very little to do with the developers fixing exploits whenever they discover one. Or see one in a video. Or read about one.

 

1 hour ago, dcsobral said:

Maybe some of them are included in it, maybe not -- I don't know. But it is my belief that something like this, which has been known for multiple alphas, might never be "fixed" if it didn't draw a crowd of people getting up in arms about it. The old joke goes that Microsoft will call a bug a "feature" if they don't want to spend resources to fix it, but joke works because there's a lot of truth to it. Even more so because there's a solid real world explanation for it, as evidenced by cattle grids.

 

Anyway, I'm bemoaning the loss of valid uses as a result of fixing an exploit. It's the first time such thing happens, it's not the first time I complain about it either.

 

We got 1000 shapes now, you will likely find other ways to supply and repair your dart traps.

 

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well this is not black and white . One from metroid series game give you award cutscene and let you kill boss faster if you get item using exploit. In Witcher 3 killing cows for skins were good way to earn money but now this exploit is solved by adding "cow avenger" monster.  Well this depends on exploit in my opinion - item copy  exloit need to be fixed in normal way but this AI exploit can be solved more unusual - zombie can't reach player? well maybe let demolisher zombie to explode himself if he can't reach player after 30 after spawning. For me  perfect passive defense in magnus opus. Why? in my opinion this in 1 of 2 main targets of zombie sandbox survival games.  Another one is farm of basic resources (water, oxygen, food , whatever is need to be alive). Well i don't know what Madmole, Faatal and rest of team think and what they want achive. But if we would use TWD as "typical zombie universe" we can say that make or find the most safe base and stable source of food, electicity water, medicine etc is the main target.  I know- game must be fun. But what mean " be fun"? well i think ww1 simulator where you will just shot and reload artilery cannon for next 3 hour to let your team assult enemy position would be greate but i know most people prefere fast action.  But another hand - there is game like dwarf fortress where you can loose everyhing if one your dwarfs will cut in hand by accident. And about exploits - i think they make sometimes game immortal - there is a lot games that are still alive because exploit let speedruners end game faster. 

And honestly- exploits in manly SP games don't mean too much if this game don't have microtransations - you manage to get 100000 k of coins using exploit in M&B? Ok your choice do what you want. You one hit kill boss in prince of persia? Ok etc

 

I understood maybe 10% of what you were saying. But regarding speedrunners, a game is dead when only speedrunners play the game.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

 

Well, it's a bit more than simply ideas from the past. They were pledge promises from the past used to entice people to support the game. Regardless of how trends have changed, TFP has an obligation to stick to those original promises and then if they have time and resources enough to pimp the game further then great. So fun ideas that might become trendy after those original promises were made might be something they will add or they may just decide to push to finish this game and put some trendy stuff in the next one. But they aren't going to replace old pledge promises with the today's flavor of the month just because that is what players are currently looking for.

 

somebody say ziplines? nah im kidding lol i know such a thing is like a meme on the forum

but on a more serious note this is exactly why i have a lot of respect for the fun pimps no matter how long the cake is to be baked they give us the cake we wanted not something that is twisted by modern day gaming strange way to phrase it but hey i think its a pretty solid point 🙂

Edited February 22, 2022 by Callum123456789 (see edit history)

[NukemDed]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

What I wonder is how many people have pet little exploits they haven't ever revealed to anyone...heheh

 

shhhhhh

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I understood maybe 10% of what you were saying. But regarding speedrunners, a game is dead when only speedrunners play the game.

 

Nope.  Now we have PS , XBOX , switch and PC right? In past you had more platforms . It means if someone still in so old game it is rly good game - for example Snes super mario world: yoshi island From 1995. 

 

Okay i will try to write this in diffrent way. 

Some well know "tricks" still used in games were exploit. Rocket(granade) jump, bunny chooping , combos ( it was a exploit from street fighter) are now features.

So  - some "exploits" can be solved in better way that "it can't be used anymore".you gave AI as example. So if zombies during blood moon can't reach player for X time and do X dmg to blocks there will be 50% chance of respawning demo zombie. If after that time it will not change anything - 100% chance. And demo zombie will explode 15 sec. after spawning.

12 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

Well, it's a bit more than simply ideas from the past. They were pledge promises from the past used to entice people to support the game. Regardless of how trends have changed, TFP has an obligation to stick to those original promises and then if they have time and resources enough to pimp the game further then great. So fun ideas that might become trendy after those original promises were made might be something they will add or they may just decide to push to finish this game and put some trendy stuff in the next one. But they aren't going to replace old pledge promises with the today's flavor of the month just because that is what players are currently looking for.

 

 I agree about that, that 's 100% right. 

[Gamida]

@Roland Is there any chance we will get an update on what was fixed/deleted/added/changed in 20.3?

[Blake_]

A20.3 Release Notes:

 

Added:

.A pixel to the Sunset.

.Zds now move before thinking of attacking, before they just attacked while thinking about it.

 

Fixed:

.Madmole trimmed his beard.

.Roland writes too much to appease the masses. It might not be fully fixed.

.TheFunPimp became a pessimistic human being. It's now completely fixed.

 

Known bugs:

.Lazman is actually really hardworking. Known bug. Needs more testing.

 

 

IMPORTANT:

To report a bug, send a email to Uganda's Foreign Affairs Department so it can relay the issue to the ISS and beam the answer to the rover Opportunity. From there, and with a "no more than 6 mins-delay", you might get a reply in the form of a paper-written note in your doorstep on the exact date of the Jupiter's Winter's Solstice. Buy Himalayan Pink salt, It's healthy.

 

[Gamida]

1 minute ago, Blake_ said:

A20.3 Release Notes:

 

Added:

.A pixel to the Sunset.

.Zds now move before thinking of attacking, before they just attacked while thinking about it.

 

Fixed:

.Madmole trimmed his beard.

.Roland writes too much to appease the masses. It might not be fully fixed.

.TheFunPimp became a pessimistic human being. It's now completely fixed.

 

Known bugs:

.Lazman is actually really hardworking. Known bug. Needs more testing.

 

 

IMPORTANT:

To report a bug, send a email to Uganda's Foreign Affairs Department so it can relay the issue to the ISS and beam the answer to the rover Opportunity. From there, and with a "no more than 6 mins-delay", you might get a reply in the form of a paper-written note in your doorstep on the exact date of the Jupiter's Winter's Solstice. Buy Himalayan Pink salt, It's healthy.

 

could you point to the official post with these notes. The last part of the important note seems to be debatable, from what I have read Himalayan Pink salt is just salt...that's pink

[dcsobral]

13 hours ago, meganoth said:

We got 1000 shapes now, you will likely find other ways to supply and repair your dart traps.

While that is true, and disregarding the aesthetics aspect of it, any shape that works can also be used for the force field. 

[RipClaw]

10 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

While that is true, and disregarding the aesthetics aspect of it, any shape that works can also be used for the force field. 

Some of them for sure but certainly not all.

 

Currently I use "Cube 1/4 Tee Side Centered" for my base to repair blade traps on the other side during the horde. Pathing over these blocks doesn't seem to be a problem for the zombies when I tested it.

 

I don't mind if the zombies can run over all the blocks that have a gap, but the function of repairing through them and connecting electric fences should remain.
 

[Guppycur]

...why.  It doesn't make sense.  Gameplay or reality.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

seems we have a mystery update right now

[dcsobral]

33 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

...why.  It doesn't make sense.  Gameplay or reality.

Why what?

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

A20.3 Release Notes:

 

Added:

.A pixel to the Sunset.

.Zds now move before thinking of attacking, before they just attacked while thinking about it.

 

Fixed:

.Madmole trimmed his beard.

.Roland writes too much to appease the masses. It might not be fully fixed.

.TheFunPimp became a pessimistic human being. It's now completely fixed.

 

Known bugs:

.Lazman is actually really hardworking. Known bug. Needs more testing.

 

 

IMPORTANT:

To report a bug, send a email to Uganda's Foreign Affairs Department so it can relay the issue to the ISS and beam the answer to the rover Opportunity. From there, and with a "no more than 6 mins-delay", you might get a reply in the form of a paper-written note in your doorstep on the exact date of the Jupiter's Winter's Solstice. Buy Himalayan Pink salt, It's healthy.

 

This sounds so SCP like. damn i need more newsstands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now!!!!!! and skeletons....

make a newsstand using skeletons sounds like perfect idea.

hm.... what if you put newsstand inside skeleton?

hm... Lazman should could .... Workman... Yes.. THIS w.o.r.k.s good

AS good as newspapers in newstands wrote by skeletons.

hm.... Well well fortunatly skeletons always have both shoes are totaly barefoot...

that have sens... but if you somehow cut off your finger cut this same finger from second hand... aestetic is important...

That's why Madmole beard is so important.

Madmole could you send us your beard pic? We don't know why but... this will be important somehow...

But What if meganoth and roland are this same person because both of them writing in similiar time....

This have sense.... i need a doctor,,, or necromancer ... where is he when i need scientistic opinion... Why????

i need support skeleton doggy! 

Btw if Faatal make a big mistake writing a cod it is fatal  bug or faatal's bug?

so many question : 

What if bandits love smoking so we will to give ciggaretes to change our reputation.

 Can child  became bandit?

Why socks are always ugly so shoes or bare feet are neccesary?

Why  gloves looks better if there is two diffrents gloves. 

Why we have chili dogs not hot dogs but hot dogs are much easier to cook??

Why we have zombie dogs not zombie cats??

Why  make game being something bettween medival dynasty and 7dtd would be perfect ( HEY TFP DO YOU WANT HELP WITH THIS??? I CAN HELP FOR FREEE!!!!!!!!!!!)

Why if you die and zombie eat our body why there is not any blood in this  place....?

So if 7dtd is just nightmare of our character who just will wake up and go to work and during traffic will zombie outbreake begin ???

So many questions...........

 

12 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

...why.  It doesn't make sense.  Gameplay or reality.

BECAUSE OF REASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn....

@Guppycur i think 7dtd with medival setting would be perfect would you agree?

[Callum123456789]

nevermind i posted about the wrong thing

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Callum123456789 (see edit history)

[beerfly]

3 hours ago, Blake_ said:

IMPORTANT:

To report a bug...

 

It wasn`t me I swear ! 

[Evil_Geoff]

4 hours ago, Blake_ said:

A20.3 Release Notes:

 

Added:

.A pixel to the Sunset.

.Zds now move before thinking of attacking, before they just attacked while thinking about it.

 

Fixed:

.Madmole trimmed his beard.

.Roland writes too much to appease the masses. It might not be fully fixed...

No!

Just no.  Madmole couldn't have trimmed his beard!  It's so... beardly in its beardedness.

 

[Matt115]

53 minutes ago, Evil_Geoff said:

No!

Just no.  Madmole couldn't have trimmed his beard!  It's so... beardly in its beardedness.

 

Madmole is like dwarv - he need to have beard! 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

42 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Madmole is like dwarv - he need to have beard! 

Right on spot, Matt! I also found an old recording of a typical day of work at The Fun Pimps! 

Spoiler

 

 

[Adam the Waster]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

This sounds so SCP like. damn i need more newsstands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now!!!!!! and skeletons....

make a newsstand using skeletons sounds like perfect idea.

hm.... what if you put newsstand inside skeleton?

hm... Lazman should could .... Workman... Yes.. THIS w.o.r.k.s good

AS good as newspapers in newstands wrote by skeletons.

hm.... Well well fortunatly skeletons always have both shoes are totaly barefoot...

that have sens... but if you somehow cut off your finger cut this same finger from second hand... aestetic is important...

That's why Madmole beard is so important.

Madmole could you send us your beard pic? We don't know why but... this will be important somehow...

But What if meganoth and roland are this same person because both of them writing in similiar time....

This have sense.... i need a doctor,,, or necromancer ... where is he when i need scientistic opinion... Why????

i need support skeleton doggy! 

Btw if Faatal make a big mistake writing a cod it is fatal  bug or faatal's bug?

so many question : 

What if bandits love smoking so we will to give ciggaretes to change our reputation.

 Can child  became bandit?

Why socks are always ugly so shoes or bare feet are neccesary?

Why  gloves looks better if there is two diffrents gloves. 

Why we have chili dogs not hot dogs but hot dogs are much easier to cook??

Why we have zombie dogs not zombie cats??

Why  make game being something bettween medival dynasty and 7dtd would be perfect ( HEY TFP DO YOU WANT HELP WITH THIS??? I CAN HELP FOR FREEE!!!!!!!!!!!)

Why if you die and zombie eat our body why there is not any blood in this  place....?

So if 7dtd is just nightmare of our character who just will wake up and go to work and during traffic will zombie outbreake begin ???

So many questions...........

 

BECAUSE OF REASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn....

@Guppycur i think 7dtd with medival setting would be perfect would you agree?

your still on those skelletons?

damn... nothing changed really 
Do feral wight still look like Boes meth headed brother

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Nope.  Now we have PS , XBOX , switch and PC right? In past you had more platforms . It means if someone still in so old game it is rly good game - for example Snes super mario world: yoshi island From 1995. 

 

There are hundreds if not thousands of good but still dead games.

 

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

Okay i will try to write this in diffrent way. 

Some well know "tricks" still used in games were exploit. Rocket(granade) jump, bunny chooping , combos ( it was a exploit from street fighter) are now features.

 

Yes, when they were an exploit most of them unbalanced their game. When they were later implemented into OTHER games they were also balanced so they actually were not exploits in those other games.

 

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

So  - some "exploits" can be solved in better way that "it can't be used anymore".you gave AI as example. So if zombies during blood moon can't reach player for X time and do X dmg to blocks there will be 50% chance of respawning demo zombie. If after that time it will not change anything - 100% chance. And demo zombie will explode 15 sec. after spawning.

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Right on spot, Matt! I also found an old recording of a typical day of work at The Fun Pimps! 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

YEP! finally our community know how they work! 

2 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

your still on those skelletons?

damn... nothing changed really 
Do feral wight still look like Boes meth headed brother

Yes i love skeletons. i like skeletons as long as remember.

There were PS1 racer game with small cars i don't remember how this game was called. Anyway - there were skeleton in cage above lava on one track. I was 6 years old if i good remember. Next there were skeleton in sleeping beauty cartoon. Idk why but i like skeletons.  I'm something wrong with my brain probably because i have a specific eastetic. Double barrel shotguns looks so good. Flak 88 too, I love morgesterns ,  cats, concrate fences, newsstands, wooden elves, spears, hanging bodies, cars from 40S, coca cola glass bottle, playing cards and "logical" - this is hard to express what i mean. Hm... let say you have WW2 game with zombies . well zombies don't exist but i surrfer a  lot when i see japan Type 99 in random bunker. Or hm... lets say there is RPG in witcher style - you know mud everywhere , hanging corpses , burned corpses and crow  eat one of dead villageres. And there main character meet poor orphan thief girl which.... wear high leather shoes and this same clothes like rich trader daughter.  Well at least Merle from A plague tale wear logical simple black clothes and go barefoot (it is much quier that way). Well @Adam the Waster i care a lot about aestetic in movies games books etc. A name of the wind and mistborn have rly good describtions of clothes, places etc and these books rly logical. A plague tale and horizon zero dawn is another example how details matter. That's why DL2 is so painfull for me - well gameplay is rly good but for example -  everywhere on street you can find only  upper halve of skeleton in 2 variants (complet skull and broken skull) . Btw skeletons are very imporant for me in such games - in tomb rider  places with skeletons = it's mean this place is rly old. Fallout skeletons give vibes "it is old and forggoten place"  so i wish so much there were a full ( full i mean complete) skeletons in 7dtd ( i know there is a pile with bloody bones and skull) - let say 3 variants- sitting and 2 lying. I know small detail but i need this so much because it would suit there soooo good!! damn i know this is not something important for 99,9% but for me yes. Damn a skeleton in cage hanging in bandit camp could look so good. I know i know nobody care about that. I wish i would be normal person

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Yes, when they were an exploit most of them unbalanced their game. When they were later implemented into OTHER games they were also balanced so they actually were not exploits in those other games.

 

 

Well this depends - in older cods you  could make "crawler" zombies to finish easter eggs . Devs learn about that exploit and... decided to left this as it works. Why? because it wasn't anything bad and it was player's choice. They change this in CW because... well money - ending easter egg give you a lot of EXP. So to finish battle pass you have to - grind, do hard things or.. pay a lot

Edited February 23, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

Poke.

[Guppycur]

1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

Poke.

Bowl.