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ArcadeAndrew115

If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"

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Title.

 

Reading the notes for A19 and all of the B's after it: they state they  are nerfing alot of perks, and nerfing the ability to find high tier loot like shotguns early on, and have this overly convoluted thing about how they are going to make progress feel "more natural" 

 

I'll Tell you one thing that would make progress feel natural, is the "spam crafting" items back, and items levels 1thru 100 that slowly progresses as you use the skill more and more, the skill gets better. (remember athletics? that felt more natural, the more you run the better you are at running)

 

but now with this new system its really lackluster and just annoying.

If I search 5 different gun safes in the same building, or in the same day its old and repetitive for them all to have blunderblusses (early on) and literally nothing else save maybe some ammo. Hell, who the heck would even have a blunderbuss in a gunsafe, Blunderbuss is more of the "crafted makeshift weapon" that you craft to help you clear a path to the gun safes which SHOULD have pistols, shotguns, rifles ect.

 

honestly I feel like TFP just enjoys ruining the game more and more, because I dont see the point in scavenging anymore if all im getting is level 1-3 blunderbusses and ammo for guns which are are virtually non existent 

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Ugh. Please don't bring this crap up again. 

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Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

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It was the better concept and if they had focused their attention for 5 minutes on it like they do with graphics updates, it would have been the best system we ever had.

But its gone now. It won't come back without mods. No sense in beeing stuck in the past. They disliked it, therefor it won't come back, no matter how superior the possibilities are.

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1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

You know that lockpicks exist right? Early game about hunting and gathering? Have you even played this game recently?
 

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3 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

Thoroughly disagree. You can always come up with the most fallacious example to prove a point, that doesn't mean it makes you right.

 

Was LBD perfect ? Hell no. Spamcrafting was an issue, walking on cactus to raise your armor level was a bad design, etc. We can all agree on that. That being said, LBD was and still could be working fine in quite a lot of areas. Improve your stamina regen by running, increase your precision/damage with guns by using them, become more efficient at mining by... mining, etc.

 

So what if you can't raise your armor/gun/tool crafting level by "learning how to do so" ? Keep the current system for that, invest points and craft better gear, problem solved. That being said, the current system could be supplemented by getting better at using weapons and tools, like we had back then. I don't mind not being able to craft a level 5 bow if I don't put points in the governing perk. But i'd love to make better use of my level 1 bow over time, by simply using it.

 

A prime example of how weird the current system works is the "low damage weapons efficiency treshhold". It's really suboptimal to use level 1 knuckle wraps while you have no perk points in brawling, since the damage is pisspoor and you have a low dismemberment chance. So what do you end up doing ? Using clubs, sledgehammers and bows, until you have enough perk points invested in Fortitude/Brawling so that you can now craft and use level 3-4 knuckle wraps efficiently. I don't mind the design for the "crafting" part, I do mind that after 10 days of using a bow I still suck at using it the same as I did on day 1. And I'd like it if I actually did suck at using the knuckle wraps at first, since my character never used them. A logic trade-off for choosing different gear early game.

 

tl;dr : just because LBD wasn't working in some areas doesn't mean the whole system had to be scrapped; we could have kept the working parts of it and supplement it with the current system.

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I gotta agree with the OP, except for the "spam crafting" and finding a blunderbuss in the safe part. I have zero problems with the loot system, finding stone weapons in sealed crates for example, etc.

 

I do however miss the, LBD, or learn by doing method. I do agree some parts of it were stupid, such as the previously mentioned spam crafting, what an ugly term. Also the hurting yourself on purpose to improve armor made no sense either. 

 

I also liked the quality 1-99, 100-199, etc. Plus the fact that it went down in quality everytime you repaired it, this just makes sense.

However the more you use guns, bows, spears, etc, the better you get. The more you run, the better your stamina increases. Maybe the better you eat, the better your "gut" gets? 

 

Idk, but it's a good idea and a missed mechanic of old. Agreed it has its exploits just like everything else but it felt the most "natural". 

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I do miss parts of LBD, it was part of the magic of the version i fell in love with 💔

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Posted (edited)

I really miss learn by doing.

I think spam crafting has become a dirty phrase because it reads like a bad mechanic but in reality it is far more organic than the current system.

It made progress feel so much more meaningful.

Shoot a rifle more and learn to manage the recoil and accuracy better.


Craft more tools, become a better tool crafter.

It also tied in so well with night time when it's dangerous to go outside you could hide in your base and improve your skills. Each day you could feel the progress of your character as you levelled different skills.

While this Alpha is the best since A15/A16 IMO it will never be the same without learn by doing! While I preferred A15 I think A16 was a good balance incorporating a mixture of the current points skill system and the old learn by doing system. 

Maybe one day we will see a proper overhaul done by modders that brings the learn by doing system back as I don't think we will see it come from the Fun Pimps as it's already dominated so much discussion but they don't want to do it.

Edited by caatalyst (see edit history)
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We've got so few valid complaints with the game that we're back to complaining about learn by doing and realism.  This is a pretty positive sign for the current state of the game IMO.

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If TFP had first tried the perk system and then in alpha17 changed it to LBD, there would be the same nostalgia just from a different group of players. Every fault of the LBD system would then be a reason to bring up the perk system and how it wouldn't have been a problem there and how good it felt then.

 

Nostalgia: Remember how good those old tv shows were? Think about an old tv show you liked and haven't seen in 10 years. Watch it again today and suddenly you see the plot holes and short cuts and it really isn't that great anymore.

 

 

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Honestly i would like that much more than the current system, all it needs is some adjustments on what gets improved and how.

 

On skills what can actually progress by usage they get these exp lines and everything else becomes a perk bonus.

 

 

Like for example lets take the stun baton:

 

Whacking enemies with it makes it a learnable experience, you learn how to hit, where and when and you learn when to utilize the shock BUT on the other side you dont learn to craft it better because that needs actual intellect and/or shematics.

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19 hours ago, beHypE said:

Thoroughly disagree. You can always come up with the most fallacious example to prove a point, that doesn't mean it makes you right.

 

Was LBD perfect ? Hell no. Spamcrafting was an issue, walking on cactus to raise your armor level was a bad design, etc. We can all agree on that. That being said, LBD was and still could be working fine in quite a lot of areas. Improve your stamina regen by running, increase your precision/damage with guns by using them, become more efficient at mining by... mining, etc.

 

So what if you can't raise your armor/gun/tool crafting level by "learning how to do so" ? Keep the current system for that, invest points and craft better gear, problem solved. That being said, the current system could be supplemented by getting better at using weapons and tools, like we had back then. I don't mind not being able to craft a level 5 bow if I don't put points in the governing perk. But i'd love to make better use of my level 1 bow over time, by simply using it.

 

A prime example of how weird the current system works is the "low damage weapons efficiency treshhold". It's really suboptimal to use level 1 knuckle wraps while you have no perk points in brawling, since the damage is pisspoor and you have a low dismemberment chance. So what do you end up doing ? Using clubs, sledgehammers and bows, until you have enough perk points invested in Fortitude/Brawling so that you can now craft and use level 3-4 knuckle wraps efficiently. I don't mind the design for the "crafting" part, I do mind that after 10 days of using a bow I still suck at using it the same as I did on day 1. And I'd like it if I actually did suck at using the knuckle wraps at first, since my character never used them. A logic trade-off for choosing different gear early game.

 

tl;dr : just because LBD wasn't working in some areas doesn't mean the whole system had to be scrapped; we could have kept the working parts of it and supplement it with the current system.

Im perfectly fine with a perk+LBD system, Theres some things that naturally dont "fit well" with LBD, such as learning how to craft a pistol, that makes sense that you need to learn it through a book/perk. also Perks could be a nice supplement to LBD, the build before they removed LBD nailed it spot on IMO (aside from a few things they couldve smoothed over) but It doesnt make sense to me that you can make 100 wooden clubs and somehow you still havent gotten any better at it.

 

16 hours ago, Outlaw_187 said:

I gotta agree with the OP, except for the "spam crafting" and finding a blunderbuss in the safe part. I have zero problems with the loot system, finding stone weapons in sealed crates for example, etc.

 

I do however miss the, LBD, or learn by doing method. I do agree some parts of it were stupid, such as the previously mentioned spam crafting, what an ugly term. Also the hurting yourself on purpose to improve armor made no sense either. 

 

I also liked the quality 1-99, 100-199, etc. Plus the fact that it went down in quality everytime you repaired it, this just makes sense.

However the more you use guns, bows, spears, etc, the better you get. The more you run, the better your stamina increases. Maybe the better you eat, the better your "gut" gets? 

 

Idk, but it's a good idea and a missed mechanic of old. Agreed it has its exploits just like everything else but it felt the most "natural". 

Finding @%$*#!ty weapons in sealed crates where youd normally expect good weapons is just silly. 

23 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

Have you played this game..? Its an open world zombie survival base building game, the point of the game is to go out scavenge supplies, gather materials, and fortify a POI or build your own base to survive the 7th day hordes. 

 

In A18 it made more sense that more dangerous zombies and more amounts of them were in the bigger POI's, and the loot tradeoff was worth it. now? I can get 6 blunderbusses and keep switching between them or just craft a stone sledgehammer and 1 tap most zombies with a power attack and cruise through builds that used to be dangerous 

15 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

We've got so few valid complaints with the game that we're back to complaining about learn by doing and realism.  This is a pretty positive sign for the current state of the game IMO.

Its more an observation that the DEVs are stating they want a realistic natural game, yet they knowingly got rid of one of the most realistic features there were

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17 hours ago, meganoth said:

If TFP had first tried the perk system and then in alpha17 changed it to LBD, there would be the same nostalgia just from a different group of players. Every fault of the LBD system would then be a reason to bring up the perk system and how it wouldn't have been a problem there and how good it felt then.

 

Nostalgia: Remember how good those old tv shows were? Think about an old tv show you liked and haven't seen in 10 years. Watch it again today and suddenly you see the plot holes and short cuts and it really isn't that great anymore.

 

 

It's not just nostalgia. At least not for me. Actually yesterday I fired up 16.4 (modded). I didn't have so much fun with any alpha afterwards as I had yesterday with it. Sure, it's quirky in some way (most notably performance) and there were lot's of improvements in many areas... but yesterday I learnt that for me the "fun" was decreasing with each alpha after 16.4. :(

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I think it could be a trifecta of progression

  • LBD - for raw numbers
    • weapon handling
    • gathering
  • Perks - change in gameplay, something fun
    • animal tracker
    • lockpicking
    • etc.
  • Magazines and books - recipes and unique bonuses
    • recipes
    • unique bonuses

 

Lot of concern in the game is with replayability. Might I suggest a selection of random new perk (select from 3) or using several perk points to improve already existing one? It works quite well in lot of roguelike games imho.

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On 7/18/2020 at 8:46 AM, SylenThunder said:

Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

It should. 

But not done artificially. 

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1 hour ago, Onarr said:

I think it could be a trifecta of progression

  • LBD - for raw numbers
    • weapon handling
    • gathering
  • Perks - change in gameplay, something fun
    • animal tracker
    • lockpicking
    • etc.
  • Magazines and books - recipes and unique bonuses
    • recipes
    • unique bonuses

 

Lot of concern in the game is with replayability. Might I suggest a selection of random new perk (select from 3) or using several perk points to improve already existing one? It works quite well in lot of roguelike games imho.

The irony here is that's almost exactly what A16 had. The best version of LBD before they ripped it out. They didn't have some of the unique perks in yet, but that progression system was already compatible.

 

Trolls on this forum (yes, I'm calling them trolls) like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but spam crafting." Spam Crafting was gone in A16.

 

Trolls on this forum like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but medical exp and armor exp was so dumb!" Like TFP couldn't tweak the numbers or designate certain sources of damage as exempt from giving exp (something they are currently doing in reverse for bleeds and fire DOTs).

 

Trolls on this forum like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but gun damage was so stupid." Gun damage being anemic had literally nothing to @%$*#!ing do with learning by doing. The rebalance was a separate effort that coincidentally happened at the same time.

 

There's more but I tire of this. Learning by Doing was a superior system and its removal has led to an inferior product.

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4 hours ago, Ranzera said:

The irony here is that's almost exactly what A16 had. The best version of LBD before they ripped it out. They didn't have some of the unique perks in yet, but that progression system was already compatible.

 

Trolls on this forum (yes, I'm calling them trolls) like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but spam crafting." Spam Crafting was gone in A16.

 

Trolls on this forum like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but medical exp and armor exp was so dumb!" Like TFP couldn't tweak the numbers or designate certain sources of damage as exempt from giving exp (something they are currently doing in reverse for bleeds and fire DOTs).

 

Trolls on this forum like to put forth disingenuous arguments like "but but but gun damage was so stupid." Gun damage being anemic had literally nothing to @%$*#!ing do with learning by doing. The rebalance was a separate effort that coincidentally happened at the same time.

 

There's more but I tire of this. Learning by Doing was a superior system and its removal has led to an inferior product.

And now the circle is complete, anyone who has criticisms of spam crafting is a troll.  That was fast.  Ad hominems against anyone who disagrees is a great way to discredit your own opinion and taint the ideals you hold with your poor example.  I heavily advise against it.  Disagree with other people, hold the opinion that spam crafting is better, it's a subjective preference so you cannot be wrong (and neither can they) by definition.  But don't be a @%$*#! by insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

Game design is always going to evolve and change, things you like will eventually change as a game continues to develop.  Whether LBD or the current skill system is the "better" option the current system is what we have now and the player counts for this 7 year old PVE game are at record levels and the game keeps consistently growing.  A18 gained a large player bump the game maintained.  The end of the year normally gets a small bump in activity over the holidays, but A18 doubled the active population and then maintained it.  A17 was the initial flawed implementation of the new skill system, A18 went back and fixed most of the problems with it, A19 provided some polish to the skill system.  A18 was basically the culmination of the new skill system.

Like it or not, the rebuild was super successful from a metrics point of view.  I'm sorry you preferred the old system.  I could do either and I view either as a tradeoff progression wise in a vacuum in an individual playthrough.  For multiple playthroughs I vastly prefer the current system however because now all the builds and weapons have their own identities and offer greatly different experiences, which did not exist in the old systems.  I can also progress what I want by playing how I want, offering much more freedom of gameplay.  If I want to pour all my points into weapons early on and crush at scavegning I can do that.  If I want to pour it all into mining and crush as mining and basebuilding I can do that.  The nuances and experiences I can choose right now are pretty diverse.  In the old LBD system, it didn't matter how I wanted to play  it was going to take me 20 hours to be able to effectively play that way and most of the early to mid game experience of each run would be the same.

Seriously though, go pure agility then go pure perception then go pure int then go pure strength then go pure fortitude.  All of them play incredibly differently in ways that did not exist before and they do so from like day 3 instead of like day 20-30 like would be the case with the old LBD.   And to implement that same kind of functionality of being able to quickly choose a playstyle while maintaining your freedom into the old LBD system would be nearly impossible and is fraught with problems.

The new system lacks some of the charms of LBD, but in tradeoff it crushes in alot of other areas...especially replayablity.

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I also somewhat miss the LBD system. I remember I had played A16 and I enjoyed the system alot especially the athletics, mining, "spam crafting" and combat. You did it over, over again and learned how to get better each time. The best duo would be the current perk system + LBD mixed in.

 

LBD for mining, crafting till you get to purple, athletics and combat while the perk system takes over the armor and all the other skills that wouldn't make alot of sense with LBD.

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On 7/18/2020 at 7:46 AM, SylenThunder said:

Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

Gathering and looting is the same thing, just explain to me whats the difference between picking jucca in a desert or picking jucca from a house?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ArcadeAndrew115 said:

In A18 it made more sense that more dangerous zombies and more amounts of them were in the bigger POI's, and the loot tradeoff was worth it. now?

That is essentially wrong.

The bigger POIs had more Zs, because they are bigger. They didn't have tougher Zs or better loot. A weapon bag in the lootroom of the Shamway factory had exactly the same chance to spawn any weapon than a weapon bag in just a garage with not Z around at all.

What zombies spawn is ONLY determined by your gamestage, it does not depend at all on the location. And the loot previously had the same chance to drop for each box of the same type no matter where the box is located. The only difference now is, that also the loot is tied to your gamestage.

Factories may have seen harder, because they are bigger. It takes longer to fight through them, but it is NOT more difficult, you just need to endure longer to fight through it and in the end you still wouldn't get better loot than anywhere else.

You can fight trough a factory on day 1 and you will also not see any cop, feral or even radiated, because your gamestage is still low.

 

Since the loot drops in A18 were just RNG and not limited by anything else, the better chance to get a good weapon was to go in any poi where you find more lootboxes. Because opening many boxes increases your chance to get a drop with a low chance. The single box on the end of a factory, has no higher chance, but you fought a long way for lesser boxes.

Basically the factories where useless in every version up to now. To long to fight with NO better loot. The only value they got where the T5 missions and their quest reward. And as you can read from many many comments here on the forums too, people even dislike the T5 quests, because they simply take to long to finish.

 

The game currently is not even capable of making specific places harder and drop better loot there then anywhere else. TFP is currently working on such a system and that changes may ship with A20.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

LBD on skills - Athletics, Weapon handling, Mining skill, etc 

 

crafting level for weapon, tool, armor etc-  Read schematics multiple times 

Edited by Styx7x (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2020 at 8:46 AM, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

Silly things, easily fixed with a few lines of code. They never bothered to do that though.

Not that I am saying they should have. Their game, their vision.

Our feedback >:)

 

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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a lot of use enjoyed the LBD aspect of the game and as some have mentioned would like to see a revamped version return to the game. with TFP wanting progress slowed down and players hating certain aspects or finding the lower tier weapons and tools lacking why not return it for maybe alpha 20 or 21 if it goes that far?

 

like the perk and book system can stay for certain things like crafting and resource gathering increases while the LBD system can be made for block and weapon damage along with stacking it to certain perk requirements.  hell if they want it to go further it could also be tied to requirements for using tools, weapons and armor. 

 

yeah this is a dead horse but considering how the game has been getting and maybe it's just on here but enjoyment of the vanilla game seems to have dwindled maybe it's time to revisit it and see why people enjoyed that aspect of the game?  thankfully the system is in some really good mods so incase it never gets added at least the modding community adds in fun elements to the game.

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