If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"

[beHypE]

I think the biggest issue right now is that A19 shipped only half the solution. The new slow progression is fine if it's shipped with raised gamestaged POIs and biomes. You can either take your time and play safely while finding tons of stone age items, or you can take the risk and go for a harder place in order to find better items straight away. The system as a whole is very promising to be honest, but A19 has some people frustrated cause it lacks the latter option. 

[Solomon]

2 hours ago, ArcadeAndrew115 said:

the point is this natural progression nonsense made the game feel more grindy than ever, I dont want to spend a whole 3 in game days clearing a large POI only to get a @%$*#!ing blunderbuss if I havent made my gamestage higher yet

Also it doesnt feel natural at all because you are not actually slowly progressing but are forced into stages till the game decides that you can now find guns in the safes what since the begining only gave you stone age tools.

[RipClaw]

56 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Also it doesnt feel natural at all because you are not actually slowly progressing but are forced into stages till the game decides that you can now find guns in the safes what since the begining only gave you stone age tools.

It doesn't feel natural, but at least crafting is viable once again. When you find everything you need, and in better quality than you could craft it, then crafting is pointless.
 

[katarynna]

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Also it doesnt feel natural at all because you are not actually slowly progressing but are forced into stages till the game decides that you can now find guns in the safes what since the begining only gave you stone age tools.

I would say finding q4 stone tools to replace your q1 and finding a blunderbuss to add another ranged option to your primitive bow and such is the definition of slowly progressing.

 

Finding guns in safes is not slowly progressing, it is a big jump in power. 

 

You can argue that gamestaged loot feels too artificial, or that you want the power increase that guns give on day 1 instead of day 6-7. But arguing that obtaining guns in the first couple of days equals slow progression doesn't make sense to me. Better primitive items for several days before you start finding guns and higher tier tools is definitely slow, steady progression.

[Xtrakicking]

17 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It doesn't feel natural, but at least crafting is viable once again. When you find everything you need, and in better quality than you could craft it, then crafting is pointless.
 

Why do you think crafting wasn't viable? In previous versions, I always crafted my own tools before finding any in loot. It's true that guns were found more often than crafted, but then they could've made it so loot yields weapon parts instead of full guns.

5 minutes ago, katarynna said:

I would say finding q4 stone tools to replace your q1 and finding a blunderbuss to add another ranged option to your primitive bow and such is the definition of slowly progressing.

 

Finding guns in safes is not slowly progressing, it is a big jump in power. 

 

You can argue that gamestaged loot feels too artificial, or that you want the power increase that guns give on day 1 instead of day 6-7. But arguing that obtaining guns in the first couple of days equals slow progression doesn't make sense to me. Better primitive items for several days before you start finding guns and higher tier tools is definitely slow, steady progression.

It is slower progress, but only because the game is literally forcing that slow progression upon the player. It's also a problem that a gun store and a loot stash from a random house's attic will give you the same primitive stuff, which you can craft anyways. In my opinion, if they don't want players to find guns so early on, they should either guard gun safes and the like more heavily, make them harder to access or make them yield gun parts instead of full guns.

[Raestloz]

19 hours ago, Lorca said:

So, let them. What's it to you?

That's what I said about 4x4 and running away from zombies, I met extreme resistance. What's it to me, what's it to others, doesn't matter. TFP have said they disliked LBD and it will not return

 

4 hours ago, ArcadeAndrew115 said:

except now the game is boring, because its all perk based, and you still have to grind exp, and the only real way to get exp is kill zombies.... when before that was helpful to level up, but you still could get exp from crafting

I don't remember clearly how it was before, but it's clear TFP wants you to progress by killing zombies. Their changes are basically to nudge you to go shoot zombies, and ultimately farm xp during the Blood Moon Crescendo

[katarynna]

1 minute ago, Xtrakicking said:

Why do you think crafting wasn't viable? In previous versions, I always crafted my own tools before finding any in loot. It's true that guns were found more often than crafted, but then they could've made it so loot yields weapon parts instead of full guns.

It is slower progress, but only because the game is literally forcing that slow progression upon the player. It's also a problem that a gun store and a loot stash from a random house's attic will give you the same primitive stuff, which you can craft anyways. In my opinion, if they don't want players to find guns so early on, they should either guard gun safes and the like more heavily, make them harder to access or make them yield gun parts instead of full guns.

I would actually love to see them add weapon and tool parts to primitive loot. That would make crafting more valuable while making looting a bit more exciting for week 1.

 

I'm not arguing that the game is forcing slower progression now. It definitely is. I think that will be felt a lot less once a19 is stable and we aren't restarting so often. Repeating that first week over and over is part of the problem i think. 

 

I don't mind the way they are doing loot now. I am enjoying the lengthened primitive stage. Adding a decent chance of finding gun parts to safes and shotgun messiah crates and tool parts to working stiff crates and a small chance to find all parts anywhere in the primitive loot stage would make it perfect to me.

[Xtrakicking]

3 minutes ago, katarynna said:

I would actually love to see them add weapon and tool parts to primitive loot. That would make crafting more valuable while making looting a bit more exciting for week 1.

Yeah, I agree with this sentiment 100%.

[RipClaw]

55 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Why do you think crafting wasn't viable? In previous versions, I always crafted my own tools before finding any in loot. It's true that guns were found more often than crafted, but then they could've made it so loot yields weapon parts instead of full guns.

There was a level gate in A17. If I remember correctly, you had to be level 20 to build a forge. If you where lucky you found a working forge but this was not guranteed. By the time you got your first forge you most certainly found some iron tools already.

 

In A18 there was the schematic for the forge and most player tried to find the schematic instead of investing two precious points because leveling was slowed down. You needed one point in Advanced Engineering to build the forge and one point in Miner 69 to craft the tools.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, ArcadeAndrew115 said:

except now the game is boring, because its all perk based, and you still have to grind exp, and the only real way to get exp is kill zombies.... when before that was helpful to level up, but you still could get exp from crafting

so grinding zombie kills is better? game sure is fun now that I have to kill zombies to level up...said no one ever

EDIT: I should say that the game was still playable and fun prior to a19, now it literally is just a grind fest to get my gamestage higher so I can actually find good weapons instead of a blunderbuss in every gun safe.

 

I literally just try and rush as many big POIS the first 7 days and rack up as many kills as possible in order to get my gamestage higher so ill be able to find a shotgun.

 

the point is this natural progression nonsense made the game feel more grindy than ever, I dont want to spend a whole 3 in game days clearing a large POI only to get a @%$*#!ing blunderbuss if I havent made my gamestage higher yet

It doesn't matter how xp is generated in the early game, my impression is that you simply don't like the survivaly early game.

 

The only real real way to get xp in the early game is mining and upgrading blocks, by the way. Put all your first perk points into mining, craft lots of cobblestone and upgrade wood buildings and I'm sure you will be a faster than with fighting. Not that doing that would be necessarily more fun than grinding zombies.

 

A20 might provide another solution, but until that time you should just use "giveselfxp" or the creative menue and jump ahead.

[Boidster]

I have made sooo many levels by mining and base-building. I kill most zombies I see, but I don't go looking for them - or rush to clear random POIs - because of the free & easy XP available from stuff I need to do anyway to get my base upgraded and to craft gunpowder/casings/bullet tips.

 

I would be 100% fine if crates and safes only gave resources/parts/mods for crafting weapons, at all gamestages. Never find a ready-to-use firearm, ever. Trader can still sell them, with progression controlled by inventory. I preferred the old (barrel + grip + parts) = gun crafting system from A15/A16 anyhow. They could add a Gunsmith NPC (or just give the traders this ability) for crafting weapons from parts you provide. Higher parts cost + a cost in Dukes, of course, to give incentive to learn to craft your own weapons. So if you don't want to perk into shotgun crafting, but you really want that Q6 pump shotgun, you can bring 110% of the normal parts + 5,000 Dukes to the Gunsmith and get your gun. But yer naganna find it ready-made in loot any more.

 

I bet I'm in a very small minority who like that idea. 🙂

[Roland]

It's so interesting to read the different perspectives and really brings home the saying One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm happy when I open a container and find a better quality blundie or even a better quality stone axe than what I have. I don't look at it like I'm wasting these containers by opening them. I look at it as this town is full of primitive loot but the next town I come to will have better stuff. I play with my brother and mom and after clearing a town we usually are at high enough gamestage and have at least bicycles to where the next town we travel to is our Tier 2 town.

[Ralathar44]

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

It's so interesting to read the different perspectives and really brings home the saying One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm happy when I open a container and find a better quality blundie or even a better quality stone axe than what I have. I don't look at it like I'm wasting these containers by opening them. I look at it as this town is full of primitive loot but the next town I come to will have better stuff. I play with my brother and mom and after clearing a town we usually are at high enough gamestage and have at least bicycles to where the next town we travel to is our Tier 2 town.

Pretty much, and a blunderbuss I don't want is going to be turned into iron or dukes.  The only thing I really wish I had was primitive versions of pistols, snipers, and machine guns.  Plus i'm getting resources and recipes and schematics and perk books and etc.  IMO finding recipes/schematics/resources is way more important than finding iron tools/T2 weapons early game.  Stone tier and blundie carries you through day 14 no problem.

[iejen]

Just another question... Are there good games out there with survival/rpg elements and a LBD skill system? 

[Raestloz]

I suppose if you mod the @%$*#! out of Skyrim you'll get that
or Fallout New Vegas

[MechanicalLens]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

It's so interesting to read the different perspectives and really brings home the saying One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm happy when I open a container and find a better quality blundie or even a better quality stone axe than what I have. I don't look at it like I'm wasting these containers by opening them. I look at it as this town is full of primitive loot but the next town I come to will have better stuff. I play with my brother and mom and after clearing a town we usually are at high enough gamestage and have at least bicycles to where the next town we travel to is our Tier 2 town.

Nonetheless, opening up the average Working Stiff Tool's box to find a few low quality stone tools is hardly worth it. The current system is headed in the right direction, but it needs some tweaking; even finding 50-100 wood in said box would be useful, or two gear parts (steel spear, steel club, etc.) would feel beneficial.

 

The only issue I have with the primitive age is this is the first alpha since A16 where I'm marking every safe on the map. 1, so I can open them while the Jailbreakers candy is active, and 2, because I know that most likely I'm going to get junk in them, junk that I can get literally everywhere else. Why open them now and get a couple mods, some old cash, and a level 2 blunderbuss, when I can open them later and one of them might contain that sweet, juicy level 3 pump shotgun?

 

Gun safes, wall safes, etc. are already pretty common so having their loot contents be of a slightly higher gamestage probably wouldn't work. Still, just my opinion, but a container that is much harder to break into (lockpicking candy aside) should usually have better contents than a bag on the floor where you can gain access to its contents immediately.

 

Anyone else feel that the Jailbreakers candy is, dare I use the word, OP? Having a 100% chance to lockpick a safe or chest feels a bit off for me. Maybe it should be lowered down to 50%, or even 75%. Either that, or lockpicks should be made more scarce and the old system should be brought back where even successfully lockpicking a safe/chest/etc. should break (or at least have a high chance of breaking) your lockpick. Currently I just keep one lockpick and I sell the rest. (Sure, if I don't like the candy, I don't have to use it. But I also don't like wasting 30+ lockpicks on a single container. 😛)

[SylenThunder]

37 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Anyone else feel that the Jailbreakers candy is, dare I use the word, OP? Having a 100% chance to lockpick a safe or chest feels a bit off for me. Maybe it should be lowered down to 50%, or even 75%. Either that, or lockpicks should be made more scarce and the old system should be brought back where even successfully lockpicking a safe/chest/etc. should break (or at least have a high chance of breaking) your lockpick. Currently I just keep one lockpick and I sell the rest. (Sure, if I don't like the candy, I don't have to use it. But I also don't like wasting 30+ lockpicks on a single container. 😛)

IMHO it should be 75 or 80% at most

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, SylenThunder said:

IMHO it should be 75 or 80% at most

Still too high imo; players would just keep several more lockpicks on them. The way I see things, one meaningful way to balance this would be to reduce their frequency in vending machines (or have vending machines contain more contents but they would restock only every 3 days; probably bad for MP though), and it should be around 20-25%. This would not render it useless, but it wouldn't also mean that the player could run around with 1-5 lockpicks and crack open every safe they've discovered in the past 30 days. 😛

 

The issues with safes are:

 

1. They have the same loot table as similar unlocked containers; why go through the effort of breaking into them early on?

 

2. Jailbreakers

 

Hence I suggest that Jailbreakers be much more scarce, they should be nerfed, and gun safes/wall safes/etc. could have a marginally higher chance of giving the player guns early on, or at least parts. Then again though, this could just end up with players getting guns on day 1 again.

 

Basically, safes are nothing special, and due to the current inconvenience and eventual major convenience of breaking into them, the "safe marking" on the map will continue.

[SylenThunder]

48 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Still too high imo; players would just keep several more lockpicks on them. The way I see things, one meaningful way to balance this would be to reduce their frequency in vending machines (or have vending machines contain more contents but they would restock only every 3 days; probably bad for MP though), and it should be around 20-25%. This would not render it useless, but it wouldn't also mean that the player could run around with 1-5 lockpicks and crack open every safe they've discovered in the past 30 days. 😛

 

The issues with safes are:

 

1. They have the same loot table as similar unlocked containers; why go through the effort of breaking into them early on?

 

2. Jailbreakers

 

Hence I suggest that Jailbreakers be much more scarce, they should be nerfed, and gun safes/wall safes/etc. could have a marginally higher chance of giving the player guns early on, or at least parts. Then again though, this could just end up with players getting guns on day 1 again.

 

Basically, safes are nothing special, and due to the current inconvenience and eventual major convenience of breaking into them, the "safe marking" on the map will continue.

Sorry when I mention 75-80% at most, I'm including stacking with the perk. Not just the candy.

 

I do agree that safes should have a higher loot table. So should the named containers like working stiffs, shamway, and the guns. It shouldn't however give you nice quality items at low levels. The days of being fully outfitted with gear for that first horde need to be over. I'm really tired of having multiple automatic weapons with enough ammo to get through the first three hordes without any effort. That doesn't make the game fun at all.

[August Spies]

On 7/17/2020 at 11:46 PM, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

I agree with this.  It's a good direction.  A lot of us have been playing this for years and generally just check things out from patch to patch.  For a finished game, I would imagine it would be better for people just stepping into the game to have a slower progression.

 

I would love for them to expand items and even have mods that fit different "periods of time". For example, maybe a leather grip mod or barbed blades to spears ect.  Armor could also be expanded along with food. 

There may then be a feeling of variety and getting loot and "good finds" that fit the particular epoch.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Pretty much, and a blunderbuss I don't want is going to be turned into iron or dukes.  The only thing I really wish I had was primitive versions of pistols, snipers, and machine guns.  Plus i'm getting resources and recipes and schematics and perk books and etc.  IMO finding recipes/schematics/resources is way more important than finding iron tools/T2 weapons early game.  Stone tier and blundie carries you through day 14 no problem.

A wooden club and a stack of coffee can carry you through day 14 if you've played this game for as many hours as most visitors of this forum have (or if you simply don't up your gamestage, lol). Most people complaining about the new loot system don't mention difficulty at all, or wanting to have "everything" at day 1, yet you and a few others keep characterizing the issue as such. Why?

 

I don't mind fighting the horde with a tin can and some good intentions, as long as it's a situation that arose from my (poor) choices rather than the game deciding that the whole world is stuck in the stone age until my character reaches some arbitrary XP threshold.

Judging from mod responses, this system might just be a placeholder for something better to come. I really hope TFP are serious about that, and manage to find a way to balance risk & reward in a way that encourages creativity and skill, instead of flattening progression because it's somehow a problem that some player somewhere got a good weapon "too early" (I guess it's unfair to the zombies?). Which, by the way, is a direct consequence of changes TFP made themselves, with the rather silly abundance of loot rooms implemented a few alphas ago.

[Ralathar44]

1 minute ago, Hrod Land said:

A wooden club and a stack of coffee can carry you through day 14 if you've played this game for as many hours as most visitors of this forum have (or if you simply don't up your gamestage, lol). Most people complaining about the new loot system don't mention difficulty at all, or wanting to have "everything" at day 1, yet you and a few others keep characterizing the issue as such. Why?

I didn't actually make the argument you are saying in my comment.  What I DID say is that I achieve significant value and progression from the current state of things still AND I advocated for primitive weapons so that all of us, especially those upset at current loot, have better and more exciting loot to look forwards to.  The problem isn't that people are not getting guns, it's that they feel the current loot lacks the excitement.  The solution to that is not necessarily guns/iron tools as has repeatedly been argued either directly or indirectly by many.  There are some who've advocated for more crafting materials instead for example.

If other primitive guns were introduced and they felt as good as the blunderbuss is now I think that would quell alot of the concerns about the current loot by bringing back some of that excitement Everyone?  OFC not, there is never a time where you can make everyone happy.  And many DO indeed want specifically guns and iron tools, but even part of that is just them being used to having it.  How much?  Who can say.  But such happens with every change in games.  People get married to the current state of things for a variety of reasons good and bad and then rebel at new changes that jeopardize what they settled on.  Nature of game development.
 

8 minutes ago, Hrod Land said:

udging from mod responses, this system might just be a placeholder for something better to come. I really hope TFP are serious about that, and manage to find a way to balance risk & reward in a way that encourages creativity and skill, instead of flattening progression because it's somehow a problem that some player somewhere got a good weapon "too early" (I guess it's unfair to the zombies?). Which, by the way, is a direct consequence of changes TFP made themselves, with the rather silly abundance of loot rooms implemented a few alphas ago.

If it helps you contextualize it A17/A18 was basically a set of major changes rolled out over 2 updates and A19/A20 appears to be the same.  First update sets the ground work, builds the foundation, and then collects feedback.  Second update finishes building the overall plan while incorporating SOME of that feedback.  Being in that half finished limbo state is not the most comfortable place to be as an end user, but trust me as a QA Tester it's normal :).  And with today's live service, early access, etc style games continiously being built with an audience gamers are getting to be part of that process too.  For better and for worse :P.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

whole bunch of assuming ignorance on my part

I get that you're content with the current system, which is cool. But while more primitive weapons are of course welcome, they wouldn't fix the problem of the fixed/flat/whatever loot progression, which is what my main contention is. Sure, some people just want to have the same early "overpowered" loot they're used to from A17/18. For me (and several others I've seen you respond to with the same "it's fine, trust me, I'm in QA" shtick), we're actually looking for something closer to even earlier alphas, where good gear was rare well into late game, unless you took your chances in the hub city, with its dogs and cops around every corner. Now I just whack zombies and watch the loot tsunami slowly turn purple. Sure, I have better gear to "look forward to", but it doesn't feel like it's up to me how to get it and getting my first firearm hardly feels special anymore, since it's basically a standard reward for playing X days, unless you go out of your way to avoid leveling up your GS for some reason.

 

I'd like to have the option to die ten times trying to get a pistol on day one, instead of having to "grind" my way through easy early game enemies until the game decides the stone age is over and starts showering me with pistols like that's supposed to make it feel better.

 

It's just so artificial and, dare I say it, lazy. It's not like there aren't good examples of loot/progression out there, even in the games TFP obviously got most of their ideas from, so yeah, I guess I don't really understand why they implemented this half baked system and tried to pass it off as a big improvement.

[SylenThunder]

14 minutes ago, Hrod Land said:

I'd like to have the option to die ten times trying to get a pistol on day one, instead of having to "grind" my way through easy early game enemies until the game decides the stone age is over and starts showering me with pistols like that's supposed to make it feel better.

I agree. And the issue was that you could get a T5 pistol with a bucket full of ammunition, which shouldn't be happening.  The pistol you get should be T1, found ammo should be limiting. It's going to be the weapon you save for a last minute hail mary, and not something good enough to carry you through the first horde night. Maybe you'll get an AK or an M-60, and those should last you long enough to get a couple of clips of ammo through them, and that's it. Then they'll need repairs, which isn't something you can do yet.

 

 

[Guest]

Yeah I'd be fine with ammo being scarcer or repairs as a way to make advanced weapons less likely to trivialize early game threats. It makes sense in the game's world and would be a great incentive to either keep seeking out high risk/reward areas (if those existed), or just use the weapon sparingly, like you said. That's more or less what I remember it being like prior to A17. I'd get excited about the gun (or the final part to complete one) I just found rifling through an abandoned car in the forest on my second day, but would use it only in emergency situations (i.e. dogs, lol) because ammo was hard to find and even harder to craft (my kingdom for some calipers!). And sometimes I didn't find anything in the first week, or I'd die in the city and lose what little gear I had, and I'd have to face the horde night with just a bow and half a set of crappy armor. Obviously that system wasn't perfect/complete either, but it offered way more memorable moments, which all but stopped occurring for me when A17 and its prefab loot rooms came into effect.