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If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"

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Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2020 at 4:05 PM, Ralathar44 said:

And now the circle is complete, anyone who has criticisms of spam crafting is a troll.  That was fast.  Ad hominems against anyone who disagrees is a great way to discredit your own opinion and taint the ideals you hold with your poor example.  I heavily advise against it.  Disagree with other people, hold the opinion that spam crafting is better, it's a subjective preference so you cannot be wrong (and neither can they) by definition.  But don't be a @%$*#! by insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

Game design is always going to evolve and change, things you like will eventually change as a game continues to develop.  Whether LBD or the current skill system is the "better" option the current system is what we have now and the player counts for this 7 year old PVE game are at record levels and the game keeps consistently growing.  A18 gained a large player bump the game maintained.  The end of the year normally gets a small bump in activity over the holidays, but A18 doubled the active population and then maintained it.  A17 was the initial flawed implementation of the new skill system, A18 went back and fixed most of the problems with it, A19 provided some polish to the skill system.  A18 was basically the culmination of the new skill system.

Like it or not, the rebuild was super successful from a metrics point of view.  I'm sorry you preferred the old system.  I could do either and I view either as a tradeoff progression wise in a vacuum in an individual playthrough.  For multiple playthroughs I vastly prefer the current system however because now all the builds and weapons have their own identities and offer greatly different experiences, which did not exist in the old systems.  I can also progress what I want by playing how I want, offering much more freedom of gameplay.  If I want to pour all my points into weapons early on and crush at scavegning I can do that.  If I want to pour it all into mining and crush as mining and basebuilding I can do that.  The nuances and experiences I can choose right now are pretty diverse.  In the old LBD system, it didn't matter how I wanted to play  it was going to take me 20 hours to be able to effectively play that way and most of the early to mid game experience of each run would be the same.

Seriously though, go pure agility then go pure perception then go pure int then go pure strength then go pure fortitude.  All of them play incredibly differently in ways that did not exist before and they do so from like day 3 instead of like day 20-30 like would be the case with the old LBD.   And to implement that same kind of functionality of being able to quickly choose a playstyle while maintaining your freedom into the old LBD system would be nearly impossible and is fraught with problems.

The new system lacks some of the charms of LBD, but in tradeoff it crushes in alot of other areas...especially replayablity.

 

I didn't say spam crafting was good or anyone with criticisms against it was an idiot. I SAID IT WAS ALREADY GONE IN THE LAST VERSION OF LBD

Edited by meganoth
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ITT Moderators come to defend the purity of the strawmanning trolls.

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2 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

ITT Moderators come to defend the purity of the strawmanning trolls.

If you think a post is against forum rules, report it. If not and you start using insults, you can only blame yourself for the result.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Roland said:

Loot has always been directly tied to gamestage ever since there was gamestage. It was just a looser relationship than it was now. 
 

I promise you that this game has NEVER forced anyone to level as quickly as possible and does not do so now. And yet we have people choosing to rush leveling because that is how they like to play. And that’s fine. But don’t claim that people must play that way because there is plenty of proof otherwise. 
 

Decent weapons for Day 7 horde ARE blundies, spears, and primitive bows Along with pipe bombs and molotovs. The event only lasts a couple game hours or so. I found a brown AK47 before the day 14 horde in my last game and that was more than decent for that night. 

My experience has been different. Once I start getting quality 5 and 6 primitive gear I am starting to find parts and quality 1 guns. 

I have noticed some youtubers like jawoodle get shotguns first day. So it sounds like rnJeasus is still large and in charge here. The blunderbus is not a bad weapon either, i find that it is a simple insta kill at close range gun. Is it dependent on shotgun perks? if so than that might explain why i did so well with it. 

 

5 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

I remember the tension of breaking the windows of a Working Stiffs from afar with either guns or crossbows, enter and loot the crates as fast as possible, then running away if things got too heavy to handle.

 

Those were the guns blazing days. The stealth days were all about crossbows and stones.

I do remember those days.I have not run away from a poi in a while now that you mention it. I am not sure if it's because the pois have changed, or if my play style adapted, or because i can't due to the questing system. I found in that after the baseball bat was introduced that it changed the game difficulty for me quite a bit. I had a system where i would go into a room, regardless of night or day, hit the wall, then deal with everything that woke up to fight me. If i do run away from something, it will be because of the mod i am playing. I have not had too many experiences with feral wrights jumping out of a building anymore. My set up is "apocalypse knight" where i am in steel armor and have baseball bats. In a19 the only change is i use the steel club now. I rush to make tier 5 blue steel armor. Its good for close range fighting, and now that it is in the strength tree that play style is much easier for me. 

 

I have more difficulty doing that now, because of the critical wound system. Getting hit too many times in a fight will mess you up a bit. 

 

Maybe some pois need to be infested spawns? they can have their own sprite, and a quest that will appear next to it, and when you start that quest it will have 64 times the normal level of zombies, that are 20 game stage higher? 

Edited by SenpaiThatIngnoresYou (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

This ridiculous system forces you to use a certain weapon because it is in the same skill tree as the one you want to take. You can't, for example, be a guy with intellect and at the same time good with pistols (at least not in the beginning, because you won't have points to put in the two skill trees).
 

I liked the old system, it was far better, which didn't have these stupid limitations. The limitations were on the character's level and on certain skills that were learned by pratice. For example, do you want to be good at mining? Mine. Want to be good with pistols? Use pistols, and so on.
 

You could place the points freely on the skills that were of interest to you and you didn't need to waste points where you didn't want to.

But there is no use criticizing, TFP does not care much about the opinions of the players, you have to eat what they want to serve and if you don't like the taste, ask a modder to bring you "water" to make it easier to eat.
 

The old system was undoubtedly much more organic and challenging, it was much more customizable. Now to have the character the way I want it, I need to have a lot more levels and spend a lot more time playing.
 

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.
But ok, here we go wasting 8 character levels to level up Force to 7 so I can have Miner'69 Er and Mother Lode maxed.

Edited by Biscoitoso (see edit history)
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5 minutes ago, Biscoitoso said:

This ridiculous system forces you to use a certain weapon because it is in the same skill tree as the one you want to take. You can't, for example, be a guy with intellect and at the same time good with pistols (at least not in the beginning, because you won't have points to put in the two skill trees).
 

I liked the old system, it was far better, which didn't have these stupid limitations. The limitations were on the character's level and on certain skills that were learned by pratice. For example, do you want to be good at mining? Mine. Want to be good with pistols? Use pistols, and so on.
 

You could place the points freely on the skills that were of interest to you and you didn't need to waste points where you didn't want to.

But there is no use criticizing, TFP does not care much about the opinions of the players, you have to eat what they want to serve and if you don't like the taste, ask a modder to bring you "water" to make it easier to eat.
 

The old system was undoubtedly much more organic and challenging, it was much more customizable. Now to have the character the way I want it, I need to have a lot more levels and spend a lot more time playing.
 

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.
But ok, here we go wasting 8 character levels to level up Force to 7 so I can have Miner'69 Er and Mother Lode maxed.

 

Yeah, darkness falls has this system, and as a result it is my go to for this game. am not waiting for the game to update, i am waiting for darkness falls to update. 

 

The best leveling system i have ever seen, was in the freeware rouglelight ELONA. You leveled up by doing, but you got skill points per level to put wherever you wanted, on top of perk points. 

 

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

 

I do miss the old system though, maybe they will change their minds and reconsider it? 

 

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4 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

 

Yeah, darkness falls has this system, and as a result it is my go to for this game. am not waiting for the game to update, i am waiting for darkness falls to update. 

 

The best leveling system i have ever seen, was in the freeware rouglelight ELONA. You leveled up by doing, but you got skill points per level to put wherever you wanted, on top of perk points. 

 

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

 

I do miss the old system though, maybe they will change their minds and reconsider it? 

 

The best skill system I have seen was in Project Zomboid, there you can read books, but they dont give you skills, they just give a XP Boost to the learning. If you read a medicine book, you gain XP boost to medical skills. And all skills in this game are pratice skills.

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16 minutes ago, Biscoitoso said:

The best skill system I have seen was in Project Zomboid, there you can read books, but they dont give you skills, they just give a XP Boost to the learning. If you read a medicine book, you gain XP boost to medical skills. And all skills in this game are pratice skills.

I love everything about that game except playing it :(.  If it had all the same systems and etc but controlled and played more smoothly in the gameplay and UI I'd be all over that game.  Well, I WOULD mod the infection to have some hard to make cure.  That 1 scratch from a corpse on the ground around a blind corner ending your entire run if you get infected is uncool.

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55 minutes ago, Biscoitoso said:

 

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.

The points are never wasted. They are the cost of gaining the mining ability you desire. Why do you care that they also give benefits elsewhere?  
 

You would rather pay the same overall cost for Miner69 without any other side benefits being granted? Because if TFP were to separate out perks like Miner69 they would definitely keep the overall cost to progress the same as they are now when you go out of your preferred attribute. 
 

And what’s wrong with advancing strength to pay the cost of Miner69 and also as a side benefit knowing that if you happen to snag a shotgun sometime in the game you’ll have some extra skill with it?

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:28 AM, iejen said:

Just another question... Are there good games out there with survival/rpg elements and a LBD skill system? 

None come to mind...the best hybrid LBD skill point system I've seen recently (apart from 7d2d) is bannerlord: mount and blade.  Last I played it was still very much unbalanced, especially at the higher game stage.

 

Increasing attritubes in that game would increase your hardcap on certain LBD skills while increasing focus points were ways to increase specific LBD skills faster (e.g. think multiplier).

 

Different tyoenof game though but an interesting hybrid implementation.

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3 hours ago, Roland said:

The points are never wasted. They are the cost of gaining the mining ability you desire. Why do you care that they also give benefits elsewhere?  
 

You would rather pay the same overall cost for Miner69 without any other side benefits being granted? Because if TFP were to separate out perks like Miner69 they would definitely keep the overall cost to progress the same as they are now when you go out of your preferred attribute. 
 

And what’s wrong with advancing strength to pay the cost of Miner69 and also as a side benefit knowing that if you happen to snag a shotgun sometime in the game you’ll have some extra skill with it?

I strong and totally disagree with you! Points spent without any direct benefit are WASTED points. And NO, I dont use shotguns, I dont like shotguns. I play as a grenadier using explosives, rocket launcher and m60. The atribute system is very unfair to me.

If you like mining and shotguns, then it is a great deal to you, cause EVERY single point you spent in your preferred tree will give you direct benefits. But others players like me who enjoy mining, but playing with other weapons than shotguns, will have a very slow progression. The atribute system is OK if you like play with "skill kits", but not ok if you dont like the pre made character sets.

The old LBD system with pre-requirement skills and levels was great. You can build your character like you want without need spent any useless points. And in the old versions of the game, like A-15 and A-16, I got myself more time playing with low tier and quality items before got some high end stuff. Now with this atribute system, I got end stuff very fast.

And yes, no matter what you say, I will tell you again: every point I spent, I want direct benefit, it is not fair to me be  punished just cause I dont want follow the pre made skills set.

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Every point you spend does give a direct benefit. It pays the required cost for Miner69 and Motherlode. 
 

1 point for tier 1

3 points more for tier 2

4 points more for tier 3
etc

It’s the direct cost for the benefit you want. Instead of the level 2 perk itself costing 3 points, you pay two for strength plus 1 for Miner69 tier 2. 
 

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9 hours ago, Roland said:

Loot has always been directly tied to gamestage ever since there was gamestage. It was just a looser relationship than it was now. 

and as such gives you more moments of disappointment or joy, more emotion. 

 

Right now it's like opening a can of beans and finding beans inside. It's not a thrill, no excitment anymore, so I understand why people don't like this tight relationship as it currently is. 

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1 minute ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Why did they move away from the old system? is there a thread on that? did they ever give a reason for that? 

As far as I know this is the first step to establish areas and POIs with different gamestages.

 

For example you go to a factory and this POI has a gamestage bonus of e.g. +50, which means you get loot that is better by +50 gamestages than what you get in the base POIs but you also have to deal with enemies that would show up 50 gamestages later.

 

There are also areas with different radiation levels planned so that you have to prepare yourself when entering an area with higher radiation.

 

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2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

As far as I know this is the first step to establish areas and POIs with different gamestages.

 

For example you go to a factory and this POI has a gamestage bonus of e.g. +50, which means you get loot that is better by +50 gamestages than what you get in the base POIs but you also have to deal with enemies that would show up 50 gamestages later.

 

There are also areas with different radiation levels planned so that you have to prepare yourself when entering an area with higher radiation.

 

 

That explains a looooot. Last horde night a demolisher had a rad suit in the loot. I was wondering why that was still in the game. I can see why they would have to scrap the old progression system then. Then again darkness falls plays exactly like that, and it is heavy on the LBD system. I dunno, early access game is early access game. I'd rather see them break things to fix later, then abandon a game like what happened with starforge and interstellar marines. 

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19 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Why did they move away from the old system? is there a thread on that? did they ever give a reason for that? 

Perks were the original plan. Books and schematics started out as placeholders for perks. When they started adding an experience system in Alpha 11 there were no perks. There were books and a simple method of advancing the quality of tools and weapons by crafting them. There was even a +/- 50 randomizer on what you crafted so that sometimes it was good and sometimes bad. 
 

There was a lot of iterating and experimenting that went on from Alpha 11 onward but LBD consistently declined as perks became more dominant. A11 was wholly an basic and rudimentary LBD system but by Alpha 16 crafting xp was completely abandoned and LBD was limited to skills whereas the perks became more dominant than ever. Finally, the last remnants of LBD disappeared in A17. 
 

The developers were always committed to perks. They experimented with LBD but it was not something they decided to go with. Perks were shown in their kickstarter mockups.  
 

It’s understandable that some players are going to have different preferences than the developers and really feel that for them the system that the devs dabbled in for a time was better than the one they wanted and planned to do. 
 

 

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17 minutes ago, Noctoras said:

and as such gives you more moments of disappointment or joy, more emotion. 

 

Right now it's like opening a can of beans and finding beans inside. It's not a thrill, no excitment anymore, so I understand why people don't like this tight relationship as it currently is. 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

So what if every item in a poi had a random chance to be a next tier item? or had a random chance to summon a horde? 

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2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

None come to mind...the best hybrid LBD skill point system I've seen recently (apart from 7d2d) is bannerlord: mount and blade.  Last I played it was still very much unbalanced, especially at the higher game stage.

 

Increasing attritubes in that game would increase your hardcap on certain LBD skills while increasing focus points were ways to increase specific LBD skills faster (e.g. think multiplier).

 

Different tyoenof game though but an interesting hybrid implementation.

Yeah, I'd have to agree this is the closest I could think of as well.  Ark has an interesting system, but it's also very similar to the current system in 7 Days. It's just got two layers to it.

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1 hour ago, Biscoitoso said:

I strong and totally disagree with you! Points spent without any direct benefit are WASTED points. And NO, I dont use shotguns, I dont like shotguns. I play as a grenadier using explosives, rocket launcher and m60. The atribute system is very unfair to me.

If you like mining and shotguns, then it is a great deal to you, cause EVERY single point you spent in your preferred tree will give you direct benefits. But others players like me who enjoy mining, but playing with other weapons than shotguns, will have a very slow progression. The atribute system is OK if you like play with "skill kits", but not ok if you dont like the pre made character sets.

The old LBD system with pre-requirement skills and levels was great. You can build your character like you want without need spent any useless points. And in the old versions of the game, like A-15 and A-16, I got myself more time playing with low tier and quality items before got some high end stuff. Now with this atribute system, I got end stuff very fast.

And yes, no matter what you say, I will tell you again: every point I spent, I want direct benefit, it is not fair to me be  punished just cause I dont want follow the pre made skills set.

I so agree with this.  All the perks I want are from perception, but I don't want to use a javelin.  I want to use a club.  So If I build my player how I want to, I'm always going to be underpowered compared to those who are happy to be pidgeonholed into one of the 5 builds. 

 

It's unfair. I really don't see why they need to have weapons linked to attribute points. LBD for weapons would be perfect.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hotpoon said:

I so agree with this.  All the perks I want are from perception, but I don't want to use a javelin.

Let me guess, the perk you're interested in is Lucky Looter.

 

Lucky Looter's not as powerful as it used to be in the early game. It adds between 5% and 25% to the current gamestage, which doesn't have much effect at the beginning of the game. A gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 10.5 with one point in Lucky Looter and 12.5 with Lucky Looter maxed out. Only when you are higher in the gamestage the effect of Lucky Looter becomes noticeable. Then a gamestage of 100 becomes a loot gamestage of 125 with Lucky Looter maxed out.

 

At the beginning the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles are much more powerful since they add directly to the gamestage. The Eye Candy adds 5 to the gamestage so a gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 15 and the Lucky Looter Goggles can also give up to 5 gamestages which means if you use the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles then you will have a loot gamestage of up to 20.
 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)

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On 7/18/2020 at 6:46 AM, SylenThunder said:

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

 

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

 

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2 minutes ago, Galifrey1965 said:

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

 

No. Even primitive weapons can be effective on day 7 if the base is designed for them. You don't need an shotgun, pistol or a AK-47 for the day 7 horde.

 

For example, I fought the day 7 horde with a stone sledgehammer and a blunderbuss. The base design was a simple hatch base. Most of the base was flagstone and some parts I upgraded to cobblestone. The hatches were iron reinforced wooden hatches. All I needed could be looted from POIs or harvested with stone tools.

 

The design that JaWoodle used for his day 21 horde in his current series could be used in the same way for the day 7 horde but with flagstone and cobblestone instead of concrete.
 

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7 hours ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

Shotguns have other drawbacks, like really short range. I noticed the pump shotgun has a range on only 5 blocks, when i realized during bloodmoon i can only shoot zombies attacking our base right below me. Guess what: The wall from where i shot down was 5 blocks high...

And the slugs also require brass.

 

And brass doesn't run out, you could melt dukes into brass since ever. So selling items to a trader or doing their quests is an indefinite source of brass. The only thing on brass is: You can't go into a mine and harvest tons of it in a short time.

 

54 minutes ago, Galifrey1965 said:

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

What weapons you find depends on your gamestage. Bloodmoon does also. So if your gamestage on day 7 is still so low that you are not able to find even a pistol, the bloodmoon will be weak too and can also been fought with bows, blunderbuss or even just melee.

Imho that's an interesting aspect of the new system. It makes you even more to really fight in the beginning but it doesn't become unbeatable, too. 

Finding a gun very early was really OP, as there were no hard Z spawns anywhere and you could almost single headshot everything with just a pistol.

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2 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

And the slugs also require brass.

No they don't since A18. The Slugs need polymers, gunpowder and bullet tips.
 

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