Weekend Arguments

[Sigil_Thane]

You can add more minerals and metals for the mining.

Copper to make the cables and some materials for mechanics and electronics.

Sulfur.

Platinum for some electronic materials and as a precious metal.

Tungsten for some necessary materials of electronics and advanced weapons.

Titanium as the strongest metal, the next level of steel to improve the blocks and to make some materials for vehicles, electronics, advanced weapons.

 

For larger hordes of zombies and more powerful zombies, something harder than steel is required. The only thing that exceeds steel and is found in mines is titanium.

 

Apart from that, titanium is necessary for electronics, vehicles and as a last level of weapons. Example: stone ax, iron ax, steel ax and titanium ax. Titanium as the most advanced, last levels of the character and very rare the loot.

 

Please... Just no. Titanium is not stronger than steel. it's as strong as steel, pound for pound, but is about half as dense. so upgrading a 10 pound sledge hammer to Titanium will result in a 5 pound sledgehammer with a normal looking head. Sometimes you will want a lighter item, like for a gyrocopter chassis, but titanium will also be more fragile as in general hitting 2 items of different densities only damages the less dense one.

 

Tungsten is what you want in most cases. It is harder than steel, so it will not be damaged as easily. It's density is more than twice that of Steel, so upgrading a 10 pound sledge hammer to Tungsten will result in a 20 pound sledgehammer with a normal looking head.

 

( Also see:

)

[AtomicUs5000]

I'd just like to be able to skip hordenight without having to log out and wait it out.

After the 20th one, it's just a useless chore on a Multiplayer Server for me. It's great for the new guys, personally I don't see the appeal of shooting countless zombies without reward. And yeah, no reward, since xp isn't of any consequence for me at that stage.

I'm in building mode then, chatting and helping new guys. And since me staying on, avoiding the horde would take away those horde zombies from other players, I could not do that.

So I have to log out for hordenights just to skip them. Without any consequences other than a lost 20minutes. Well, most of the time I just use hordenight as the final reason to stop playing for the session.

Many times I don't even join the server if it's a day short of bloodmoon. Wouldn't get things done until then

I'd rather have the option to stay on, without having to fight. BM, for me, is early game excitement. The endgame doesn't need that mechanic in my opinion. It's neither hard nor rewarding. It's just 20minutes of shooting until it's over. I'd really like being able to skip it

Your late game could be someone else's early game in an MP setting.

If the amount of enjoyment you get early game is not worth the problem you face late game, I just wouldn't join a server that had it on.

 

For the most part, I am in agreement that the BM should be rewarding on its own for the sake of survival.

When discussing this in other threads, we came to this problem with MP.

For the life of me, I cannot think of any solution except for reward when it comes to MP. Or, if it is MP, then maybe BM just isn't a mode that fits well.

In SP, when you have BM on, you can appreciate such a thing as survival being its own reward when surviving it is a must.

[meganoth]

I'd just like to be able to skip hordenight without having to log out and wait it out.

 

You heard about the planned feature that you could wait out the BM inside the trader compound, for a fee?

 

why should it bother anybody if i hop on a bike and avoid it?

 

Why should it bother anybody if I want to have a meaningful balanced choice in my game?

[mr.devolver]

Release Estimate: Sometime in 2019

 

See you next year lol

[Dreyseth]

Re vehicles on horde night, how about a breakdown mechanic? Low quality vehicles may stall, or may take a few seconds or a few tries to start. Higher quality vehicles have a decreased chance of breaking down. To get a stalled vehicle running again, you have to get off and use the wrench or repair kit to fix it.

 

I'm fine with a rare chance of vehicle breakdown, to maybe slow a vehicle after taking a certain amount of damage, but not one that completely immoblizes, potentially stranding the player miles away from base. To be forced to always carry emergency repair equipment in inventory would not be fun.

 

 

 

I am in favor of a very rare chance of an electrical engine losing power after a BloodMoon lightning strike (for whatever unknown reason). With the only real drawback that the affected engine simply needs to be restarted.

 

Along with this I would also like to see engines that actually take a moment to start. Also, if vehicles have tiered quality (I don't remember the latest status there) having worse engines carry a slight chance of starting difficulty.

 

 

translating the feel of my real world experiences with troublesome engines into simple statistical odds I came up with this example:

(the chances of starting an engine seem to actually get worse the more you mess with it)

 

Starting Engine

Try #1, 1 in 6 chance of not starting. (typically starts right up)

Try #2, 2 in 6 chance of not starting. (you just don't have your golden touch today)

Try #3, 3 in 6 chance of not starting. (needs a tune-up maybe?)

Try #4, 4 in 6 chance of not starting. (definitely something not right mechanically)

Try #5, 5 in 6 chance of not starting. (the engine is flooded or karma is taking its toll)

Try++ At this point any subsequent tries have the same 5 in 6 chance of not starting, or, let it rest for 60 seconds and the odds reset to the initial try.

[khzmusik]

Regarding this whole blood moon vehicle issue:

 

I'm coming around to the idea that this isn't some "exploit" that needs to be "fixed." That phrase suggests that driving around during the blood moon shouldn't even be an option - and that attitude just takes away from player choice.

 

Instead, I think solutions have to focus on making the option more challenging. Not because TFP want to design a game where this isn't an option - but because currently taking that option is boring.

 

Basically, the focus should be on how players can drive around during the blood moon, but they would do something other than just sit there holding the "W" key for eight in-game hours. Hopefully, this option should be as deep, involving, and require as much interesting prep as the tower defense/base building strategy is now.

 

All IMHO of course.

[AtomicUs5000]

Regarding this whole blood moon vehicle issue:

 

I'm coming around to the idea that this isn't some "exploit" that needs to be "fixed." That phrase suggests that driving around during the blood moon shouldn't even be an option - and that attitude just takes away from player choice.

 

Instead, I think solutions have to focus on making the option more challenging. Not because TFP want to design a game where this isn't an option - but because currently taking that option is boring.

 

Basically, the focus should be on how players can drive around during the blood moon, but they would do something other than just sit there holding the "W" key for eight in-game hours. Hopefully, this option should be as deep, involving, and require as much interesting prep as the tower defense/base building strategy is now.

 

All IMHO of course.

 

Nobody wants to completely eliminate the possibility.

The consensus among those presenting and/or agreeing with this as an idea is that it is not to prevent the possibility of doing so altogether... just doing so should bring at least some effort, some challenge, to maintain balance as you said.

The number of people posting this assumption as a counterargument is probably making you see it this way.

[Roland]

Well... that would explain why all my arguments are percieved as hate or negative attitude.

 

Nothing I said explains that at all.

 

You don't think arguments that aren't emotionally charged should count.

 

I don’t think that and I never said that.

 

So bringing up gamedesign and interconnectedness between features mean nothing to you, but the subjective "me not having fun" is.

Of course, if I didn't have fun, I'm simply playing the game wrong or the game is not for me...

Buuut... I'm silent again. I sometimes just forget myself if I read these.

 

I have no idea what you are going on about. Nothing I wrote means anything close to what you are writing. You are welcome to continue to give your opinion on game design. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else’s.

 

What’s wrong from a design viewpoint with continuing to allow players to avoid blood moon night by driving around but also adding a challenge or risk to that choice? If the devs don’t prevent the choice but do add a component of driving skill being necessary to successfully pull it off how is that a worse design than the way it has been?

[Dimpy]

I wasn't on the fourms when this was a thing, but wasn't the "throw down spikes and laugh" strategy considered an exploit back when log spikes were a thing? How comparable is it to the use of veichles to run away?

[FA_Q2]

"Feels like 7dtd is turning into a shooter more than a RPG"

 

I've seen this statement a few times lately in here, but I have a hard time understanding it.

Firstly, what is the goal? Is the game supposed to be 50% shooter, 50% RPG? 75/25? 25/75?

What is it at right now? What is changing to change that amount of RPGness?

 

I see that a lot of people get excited about "RPG elements" in the game. What exactly is bringing those elements. Excuse me with those questions. I have played RPG games, but I think I don't understand what exactly defines an RPG and distinguishes it from others. I believe the trader and skill points contribute to having RPG elements, but what else? I guess these RPG elements have been so minimal, that I just have never even considered this game to be even close to an RPG... at least the ones I have played.

 

In my mind an RPG requires one thing above all others, a ROLE. IOW, story.

 

Considering that this game is utterly without a story and any semblance of a 'role' that you are playing it is not an RPG at all.

[Roland]

I wasn't on the fourms when this was a thing, but wasn't the "throw down spikes and laugh" strategy considered an exploit back when log spikes were a thing? How comparable is it to the use of veichles to run away?

 

Depends on who you ask as with anything. It was the regular spikes and not the log spikes anyway. But Madmole, himself, enjoys casting this particular spell so it is probably here to stay

 

It does require some amount of skill to place them effectively in the heat of the moment and of course the effort of chopping all the wood. So maybe it is somewhat in line with driving in a car but needing to swerve out of the way of zombies in your path.

[Roland]

In my mind an RPG requires one thing above all others, a ROLE. IOW, story.

 

Considering that this game is utterly without a story and any semblance of a 'role' that you are playing it is not an RPG at all.

 

It definitely is not an RPG. But it does have RPG elements. It borrows mechanics normally associated with RPGs. I would classify it more as an Adventure game in which you create your own stories as you live in the world.

 

I think reducing loot drops from zombies made it less of a shooter but the fact that there is still a significant xp reward is what keeps the shooter elements continuing to feel significant.

 

It is definitely a genre mutt of a game...lol

[AlabasterW]

All the talk of metal density and weight on the last page made me wonder: lead sledgehammer when? It's nearly impossible to swing but obliterates everything it hits, including your feet, probably! Odds are it's just some car batteries taped together on the end of a stick

[alchemi2]

IMO the whole Vehicle BM argument/discussion is due to vehicle being OP, shouldn't the solution be to make the whole driving experience more balanced.

 

Players avoiding BM by driving away easily is not really the issue, players being able to run down a Zombie Bear with a Bicycle multiple times without taking any damage is of greater concern from a game play point of view, funny but ridiculous.

 

Hopefully TFPs solution whatever it will be, would be an everyday one that increases or becomes more common on hoard night, after-all some players play BM every night and some have it once a green cheese.

[Sigil_Thane]

All the talk of metal density and weight on the last page made me wonder: lead sledgehammer when? It's nearly impossible to swing but obliterates everything it hits, including your feet, probably! Odds are it's just some car batteries taped together on the end of a stick

 

Lead is heavy, but soft. You'd be repairing it constantly. Tungsten is MORE dense, but so hard it is used in drill bits and saw blades to cut through hardened steel.

 

[b][u]Material            Density (kg/Mcu)            Hardness(Mohs)[/u][/b]
Iron			 7850                     	4.5
Lead			11340                      	1.5
Stainless Steel		 7480 - 8000         	        4.5  
Steel			 7850                           4.0
Titanium		 4500				6.6
Tungsten		19600				7.5
Tungsten Carbide	15600				9.0

 

(Also Relevent: Tungsten core for a Thor's hammer build

)

[Ezed]

OK here's a silly...

 

Behemoths are in our future. So, scale up some buzzards into Behemoth Buzzards that are large enough to pick up vehicles in their talons. They'd carry you up a bit then drop you when it realizes 4x4's (motorcycles, etc.) don't taste so good.

 

Keeps vehicles as they are and adds new 'gameplay' via the skillful driving required to avoid being snagged.

 

Also a threat to gyro-copters (much needed IMO).

[samonoske]

About this BM vehicle discussion. what if there was some type of zombie that fed on fuel and was fast enough to get to any moving vehicle and start sucking it dry. this would force you to get out/off your vehicle and deal with the zombie guzzler. giving other zombies a chance to get to you while you deal with it. kill it fast enough and you may have enough fuel left to make it back to your base. this might have to be some kind of zombie bat so it can get the fuel from those flying gyro-copters too. as for the bike just have the player get tired and slow down to rest after there stamina drops allowing zeds to catch up and attack.

[AlabasterW]

Lead is heavy, but soft. You'd be repairing it constantly. Tungsten is MORE dense, but so hard it is used in drill bits and saw blades to cut through hardened steel.

 

[b][u]Material            Density (kg/Mcu)            Hardness(Mohs)[/u][/b]
Iron			 7850                     	4.5
Lead			11340                      	1.5
Stainless Steel		 7480 - 8000         	        4.5  
Steel			 7850                           4.0
Titanium		 4500				6.6
Tungsten		19600				7.5
Tungsten Carbide	15600				9.0

 

(Also Relevent: Tungsten core for a Thor's hammer build

)

 

So what you're saying is lead weights and tungsten heads on everything. Gotcha

[RestInPieces]

XP, fun, satisfaction, sometimes drops. A few pages back, wasn't MM asking since when survival stopped to be for sake of survival?

 

1) First of all fun and satisfaction are... feelings that are mostly subjective to each person, they are not practical reasons.

2) XP and drops are practical reasons. However they are not mutually exclusive to the BM horde and easily acquired anywhere, so they can't be a practical reason to fight the horde.

3) XP and drops are rewards => The purpose of every reward in this game is to help you "survive" => If the most "threatening" event in the game (BM) rewards you, AKA helps you "survive", doesn't that moot the point of the event and the rewards themselves?

 

In other words, being rewarded, should not be practical reasons for players to "participate" in the event. Being threatened/defense/survival should be the reasons to fight the BM.

 

I completely agree with MM's sentiment and like he implied afterwards in his post, in order for survival to mean something, the opposite, death, has to bear weight. This is not debatable, it's a fact.

[Sigil_Thane]

So what you're saying is lead weights and tungsten heads on everything. Gotcha

 

...pretty much. Or just tungsten for weights too.

[DaVegaNL]

Not always possible. I could be (likely) on a server and others want it. It's no skin off their backs if I'm cruising down the street in my six-four.

 

...we have tons of legit things the game needs development on, finding a dumb way to nerf using cars on horde nights should be the lowest priority.

 

This. A thousand times.

Who cares about people using cars during bloodmoon.. seriously. I would worry more about more pressing issues. Like the still-no-bandits issue. Or the abysmal-performance issues. Or the issue where items/mechanics aren't added to the game because said performance. Or the issue that development time for a18 keeps increasing.

[Viktoriusiii]

Nothing I said explains that at all.

I don’t think that and I never said that.

I have no idea what you are going on about. Nothing I wrote means anything close to what you are writing. You are welcome to continue to give your opinion on game design. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else’s.

 

What’s wrong from a design viewpoint with continuing to allow players to avoid blood moon night by driving around but also adding a challenge or risk to that choice? If the devs don’t prevent the choice but do add a component of driving skill being necessary to successfully pull it off how is that a worse design than the way it has been?

 

Since we are not designers of this game but are consumers we should give feedback based on our own experience and not some hypothetical group we imagine exists. If everyone gives an accurate account of their own experience and preferences then the designers can use what they gather to temper and refine their own predilections.

 

I'm sorry... but this sounds a lot to me like "don't give generally true statements, but only personal experiences"

 

And I have been on here for long enough that you should know I am the biggest opponent of those loopholes, since they deactive the biggest part/driving factor of the game.

There shouldn't be a cost efficient way to avoid the hordes. If there is a recipe that you can find that costs loads and you need to find one each hordenight, sure. But not "oh i have this vehicle and now I'm forever safe from the Z's." Or "I dug down 20 blocks so now I don't have to worry about Z's".

[hotpoon]

This. A thousand times.

Who cares about people using cars during bloodmoon.. seriously. I would worry more about more pressing issues. Like the still-no-bandits issue. Or the abysmal-performance issues. Or the issue where items/mechanics aren't added to the game because said performance. Or the issue that development time for a18 keeps increasing.

 

Agreed. Personally I think this BM/vehicle discussion is only happening because the real issues have been marked as 'end of discussion', so now people are nitpicking to keep the conversation going.

[RestInPieces]

I'm sorry... but this sounds a lot to me like "don't give generally true statements, but only personal experiences"

 

And I have been on here for long enough that you should know I am the biggest opponent of those loopholes, since they deactive the biggest part/driving factor of the game.

There shouldn't be a cost efficient way to avoid the hordes. If there is a recipe that you can find that costs loads and you need to find one each hordenight, sure. But not "oh i have this vehicle and now I'm forever safe from the Z's." Or "I dug down 20 blocks so now I don't have to worry about Z's".

 

Mate, as you can see around you, not everyone is willing to properly back up a generally true statement or base it on logic. It's easier to accuse others, make it seem you belong to the majority and repeating the same things over and over, not replying to counter-arguments.

 

For example the "people care how I play" that is trending around here, is a generally true statement in the eyes of some people. Of course if that were the case, people would also be complaining about their ability to choose among the variety of different options we have available. None is, for some strange reason. But when someone really wants to convince himself of something, all logic coherence is lost to that person. Extensive reasons have been mentioned a thousand times and people still keep parroting the same things like in the post above yours. Just take a look at the "A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem." thread in the general section.

 

So the more honest approach is to start talking only about the pros and cons of the matter at hand. Anyway MM commented on loopholes and they are obviously trying to get rid of as many as possible, because they can obviously understand that it's not loopholes that create "playstyle freedom", but more like solid gameplay choices, which can't co-exist with loopholes.

 

Agreed. Personally I think this BM/vehicle discussion is only happening because the real issues have been marked as 'end of discussion', so now people are nitpicking to keep the conversation going.

 

Or maybe because practical reasons to use all of the game's TD elements, fortifications and defenses are kind of important, since, you know, TD is one of the game's tags and it is a huge part of the content. It's no less important the underground debate which had been going on for years, which was a different loophole, but for the very same thing.

[Gazz]

Lead is heavy, but soft. You'd be repairing it constantly. Tungsten is MORE dense, but so hard it is used in drill bits and saw blades to cut through hardened steel.

Yes. That's why diamond and gold pickaxes are so hilarious in games.