Weekend Arguments

[Roland]

I feel like you guys are over thinking it, just make the vehicles stop working when the blood moon activates the same way they do when they run out of health or gas.

 

If you get into the vehicle during a blood moon, instead of "Varooom", you get "Rrrr, Rrrrrr, <sputter, sputter, click>" noises of an engine that will not start.

 

You still aren't processing the actual conversation that is happening. You castigated us because you assumed our motives for wanting change were to prevent other players from playing the way they want. Now you offer a suggestion that would do exactly that?

 

The point is not to prevent anyone from driving around on Blood Moon night. The point is that if someone does choose to do this there is challenge and fun to it.

 

And not overwhelming challenge that only veterans of the game can overcome. Just plain basic challenge that any one with any experience with video games could rise to. As for first time virgin video gamers....I'd rather not that the default settings of this game become so gentle that those folks would choose 7 Days to Die to cut their teeth on...

[Roland]

I agree but I dont think it's a good idea that TFP should base difficult level based on us veteran players.

Hence my comment on Atomic.

 

Also I dont think it's a productive response to push a agenda based on ", i want challenges on horde night while driving for MY enjoyment. I dont care AT ALL how it affects you or anyone else. " hence my mod it comment on Snowdog.

I just dont see how that will benefit the playerbase.

 

As I said. I'm fine with nerfing gas.

I like the idea of adding driving skill.

Also I like the idea of losing traction and lowering visibility during bm storm. Since it's raining. Which should also affect driving during every rainy day.

 

I want to 7dtd to be a game without shoe-horned invisible walls that forces a certain playstyle. Why?

Because I want to still be able to promote this wonderful game to friends Without it being a flawed lore.

 

And I dont think a egoistic or a eletistic view on balancing the game will improve the playerbase at all.

 

I disagree. When making suggestions people should always state plainly their own preferences and what they want to see in the game. Making suggestions for some perceived group of people to try and add weight to your suggestions is fake-- and when someone suggests it for some alleged faction that they themselves are not even part of it becomes ridiculous.

 

Focusing on the motives for wanting a change instead of discussing and brainstorming the changes themselves is a waste of time. Who cares if one guy wants to stop others from doing something and someone else only wants to make their own game more fun? What was the suggestion that they made? Is it a good one? Are their downsides?

 

Let's discuss the actual suggestions and list pros and cons instead of trying to turn the conversation to why people are making suggestions.

 

Finally, when talking about balancing it is easy and simple to talk about loopholes and exploits in terms of "people can do this" or "people shouldn't be able to do this". These statements are to demonstrate that an imbalance exists and I seriously doubt they are meant to mean, "I don't want someone else to have fun by playing in this manner". It's not personal.

 

So maybe saying "People shouldn't be able to just drive around all night long without any cost or risk" is not as well phrased as "The game is currently not balanced well for the choice to drive around at night on blood moon vs the choice to defend a base" but I'm thinking they mean the same thing for most people and nobody is sitting around thinking of ways to ruin the fun of others.

[Roland]

And group has fun when they can get the good stuff. When i have LL i will not let others loot the containers. And when someone else has LL, i will help to open them but i won't loot anything.

 

heh...we could never play together. I would annoy you to distraction because I insist on opening my own loot containers regardless of whether someone has a higher looting rating standing right next to me. If someone stepped in to open it for me and then gave me what they found I would probably shoot them with it and hope that friendly fire was active....

 

 

Funny thing is I don't feel the same way about crafting. If a mate has a better ability to craft higher quality gear and offers to craft stuff for me I thank them and accept it with no problem. I guess I like looting more than I like crafting so if someone is going to play an aspect of the game for me it better not be the one I really enjoy.

[beerfly]

heh...we could never play together. I would annoy you to distraction because I insist on opening my own loot containers regardless of whether someone has a higher looting rating standing right next to me. If someone stepped in to open it for me and then gave me what they found I would probably shoot them with it and hope that friendly fire was active....

 

 

Funny thing is I don't feel the same way about crafting. If a mate has a better ability to craft higher quality gear and offers to craft stuff for me I thank them and accept it with no problem. I guess I like looting more than I like crafting so if someone is going to play an aspect of the game for me it better not be the one I really enjoy.

 

Nah, no one will be annoyed if people loot their own findings. It is that part of the game, that we love, that unzipping/opening loot container sound and the surprise we get. Remember our looks when we got the minibike book ? All the many reactions in YT and streams around the internet. Thats sacred.

 

If someone thinks it could replace this , you are doing right. You can probably just leave them. But shoot them and leave them works better.

Looting here is the best in any game so far. Many have lost me because the lack of it.

 

Once I helped a kid to go to his first quest, ever. I was so into the game that when I found it, without even a thought opened it and the dude`s dissapointed voice cracked me a bit.

 

Be careful who you play with, kids.

[khzmusik]

Quick ideas about some possible things to make driving a little more challenging:

 

• Running over zombies should slow the vehicle down ('cause guts get in the gears)
  
• Running over zombies damages the vehicle (but I disagree about vehicles taking more damage from the environment - they used to take damage when just running over rocks, glad that was removed)
  
• Running over zombies creates a visible "blood splatter" effect, limiting visibility (similar to bleeding)
  
• Acid rain during the blood moon, so you constantly take damage if you're outside
  

 

EDIT: It's also been suggested in the past that vehicles should be able to be found in the wild, like how they are in State of Decay or Mist. If this were a thing, then vehicles could be severely damaged by zombies, and you'd have to replace, loot, or repair two or three in a single blood moon. I still like the idea, and not just for this reason. But the devs do not seem terribly keen on it, so I have low hopes this will ever be considered.

 

As an aside - this doesn't solve any balancing issues, but it would be cool if running over zombies "splattered" them. Like, there would be a near-100% chance for dismemberment of all limbs. Wouldn't really do much, but it would look cool, and make running over zombies more satisfying.

 

Also, regarding loot shortage for MP servers - the new Borderlands game apparently has an option for "per-player loot," such that the same container can be looted once per player, and the loot inside matches the individual player level. In BL this is apparently to prevent "loot ninjas" but I'm sure it would also mitigate some MP-vs.-SP loot balancing issues. However, I imagine this would be a difficult thing to implement, so this suggestion might be a no-starter.

[Dark_Corvid]

What happened to survival itself being a reward? Everyone wants a participation reward these days. You know, the fat ass who walked the 50 yard dash gets a ribbon kind of thing? Sorry Navezgane is an unforgiving place, not meant for the weak. Zombies have a chance to drop loot, dogs drop bones and leather, and you get boatloads of XP for killing them, yet that isn't enough?

 

Once we make the death penalty steep enough maybe you will change your tune and you'll feel grateful you survived instead of having asking for a hand out lol.

 

The joy of gameplay for gamplay's sake is quickly disappearing thanks to an overabundance of extrinsic reward systems in many games. Players now expect an extrinsic reward instead of valuing the intrinsic reward of gameplay mastery.

 

Frankly, this trajectory is ruining certain games. I'm glad to see this discussion playing out here and appreciate the acknowledgement that joy can simply be had by playing.

[Roland]

Quick ideas about some possible things to make driving a little more challenging:

 

• Running over zombies should slow the vehicle down ('cause guts get in the gears)
  
• Running over zombies damages the vehicle (but I disagree about vehicles taking more damage from the environment - they used to take damage when just running over rocks, glad that was removed)
  
• Running over zombies creates a visible "blood splatter" effect, limiting visibility (similar to bleeding)
  
• Acid rain during the blood moon, so you constantly take damage if you're outside
  

 

EDIT: It's also been suggested in the past that vehicles should be able to be found in the wild, like how they are in State of Decay or Mist. If this were a thing, then vehicles could be severely damaged by zombies, and you'd have to replace, loot, or repair two or three in a single blood moon. I still like the idea, and not just for this reason. But the devs do not seem terribly keen on it, so I have low hopes this will ever be considered.

 

Also, regarding loot shortage for MP servers - the new Borderlands game apparently has an option for "per-player loot," such that the same container can be looted once per player, and the loot inside matches the individual player level. In BL this is apparently to prevent "loot ninjas" but I'm sure it would also mitigate some MP-vs.-SP loot balancing issues. However, I imagine this would be a difficult thing to implement, so this suggestion might be a no-starter.

 

Madmole has said that raining on BM night would kill performance even more, so that is a no go.

 

Up to 8 people looting every container would really increase the amount of gear/food/mats exponentially. For BL it is fine because scarcity really goes against its style. But in this game there needs to be a degree of scarcity. Cool idea but bad fit in my opinion.

[khzmusik]

Madmole has said that raining on BM night would kill performance even more, so that is a no go.

 

Up to 8 people looting every container would really increase the amount of gear/food/mats exponentially. For BL it is fine because scarcity really goes against its style. But in this game there needs to be a degree of scarcity. Cool idea but bad fit in my opinion.

 

I didn't know rain killed performance that much. That is an understandable criticism.

 

The point about the "per-player loot" would be that TFP would, theoretically, only need to balance the loot abundance for SP games. IMHO certain loot is far too abundant in SP, but I've heard many complaints that trying to balance that would kill MP. The whole issue with finding acid is a good example - the fact that it is scarce right now works in SP, but people here have been asking for ways to make it more abundant (like being able to craft it), and the usual reason is that it's far too scarce in MP games.

 

Still, not counting on it being implemented, I imagine it would be a PITA to code.

[Syrex]

Shortened version of vehicle gimp during blood moon idea. Could do blood moon = engine trouble. Couple of could's would be (for blood moon nite):

 

a) Could code the vehicles "normal" speed to be less than a sprinting/running zombie, that way players playing on a lower difficulty (most likely have zombie run/sprint off) can outrun a horde if they choose while those playing a higher difficulty wont be able to outrun a running/sprinting zombie easily in their vehicle.

 

b) Could make it that the vehicle uses more than avg gas so you have to get out to refuel more often during this nite. (If I'm not mistaken, at least it appeared so to me, the mechanic is already in game where if you press shift key to make the vehicle go faster you use more gas. Could increase the gas usage even further when shift is used.)

 

c) Could make refueling slower as well, like the time it takes to open a trunk of a car (instead of refuel as fast as you can click the refuel key).

 

So it would look like this:

 

In vehicle putt-putting around, running zombie sees and sets out to attack you. It could catch you in normal vehicle movement mode so you hold the shift button (pedal to the metal) to outrun the running zombie. Constant use of burst speed (shift) causes vehicle to gas guzzle making you stop the vehicle to refuel sooner than expected. While you're refueling, someone has to lookout for you to make sure you're not jumped during refuel or if solo you are forced to make a decision of abandon car for the moment or try to refuel if it appears safe enough to do so.

 

Just random first cup of coffee ideas

[Kalex]

They should, its the only way to pick up your workstations.

 

Will people on your friends list be able to put blocks down and pick up workstation under landclaim in A18. In A16, it would not allow them too (haven't tested it in A17)?

[Kalex]

Oh, loot bo... pardon, surprise mechanics? That's not something players usually ask for. =)

 

because he's a lone weirdo.

[AtomicUs5000]

I agree but I dont think it's a good idea that TFP should base difficult level based on us veteran players.

Hence my comment on Atomic.

 

Just want to say here that I do not consider myself a veteran player. I do have quite a substantial amount of hours in, but spanned over only 2 and a half alphas.

 

Also I dont think it's a productive response to push a agenda based on ", i want challenges on horde night while driving for MY enjoyment. I dont care AT ALL how it affects you or anyone else. " hence my mod it comment on Snowdog.

I just dont see how that will benefit the playerbase.

 

I don't think so either. Please understand that this statement and the like from others are in response to the "don't tell me how to play" and "stop forcing me to play your way" arguments. It is far from my main points in the debate and far from the main points presented by others.

 

As I said. I'm fine with nerfing gas.

I like the idea of adding driving skill.

Also I like the idea of losing traction and lowering visibility during bm storm. Since it's raining. Which should also affect driving during every rainy day.

 

Then mod it. Just kidding. Ideas are much better to see than the good ole "mod it" response.

 

I want to 7dtd to be a game without shoe-horned invisible walls that forces a certain playstyle. Why?

Because I want to still be able to promote this wonderful game to friends Without it being a flawed lore.

And I dont think a egoistic or a eletistic view on balancing the game will improve the playerbase at all

 

I agree and this is why it is important to think about the good aspects and bad aspects of the presented ideas.

[HerrKingsley]

snip.

 

I disagre. Being able too look beyond your own ego might be a good practice for a lot of ppl.

 

And as a designer I strongly disagree with your world view that you can't see something being benifitional for other ppl than your self.

 

Solving problems for other ppl is basically the core of product and service design.

 

The creator might or might not belong to the target group. But there is still the target groups needs that are in focus.

 

Now you might be wrong about your assumptions or have the wrong data about the target group but that can also be discussed.

 

 

But on the rest of you comment I'll agree. Let's move forward.

[HerrKingsley]

Just want to say here that I do not consider myself a veteran player. I do have quite a substantial amount of hours in, but spanned over only 2 and a half alphas.

 

 

 

I don't think so either. Please understand that this statement and the like from others are in response to the "don't tell me how to play" and "stop forcing me to play your way" arguments. It is far from my main points in the debate and far from the main points presented by others.

 

 

 

Then mod it. Just kidding. Ideas are much better to see than the good ole "mod it" response.

 

 

 

I agree and this is why it is important to think about the good aspects and bad aspects of the presented ideas.

 

Great response. I think we are on the same page after all.

Let's move forward.

[Star69]

I guess it must be a perspective thing. I don’t use vehicles to run around on BM because... what’s the point? Same for water treading....where’s the fun factor? I play games for fun. If....if they somehow make driving or treading water on BM fun, maybe I might give it a try. It might be a fun alternative to standing on my base shooting zombies. Right now, IMO, it’s pointless. There has to be some sort of fun factor in order for people to do something. Right now, the only people who enjoy driving vehicles on BM are those avoiding the horde. If no fun factor is added, I’ll keep shooting zombies in my base, no big deal. Finding other ways to enjoy various aspects of the game should be a major interest from the developers. Regarding the arguments above, wouldn’t it be great if both sides get what they want? Avoid hordes and have fun? It shouldn’t have to be either/or. Now how to accomplish that, I have no idea. Just my 2 cents.

[PO_Man_3849]

So are we doing away with feathers now? Because I only found three uses for them.

 

1. Arrows and bolts.

2. Burning them as fuel. (burns very fast)

3. Sell at a trader. (Traders won't buy a lot of them)

 

He only said polymers would be for steel arrows and bolts, i assume all the lesser will still use feathers

[Guppycur]

Sometimes you want to play but just don't feel like doing a blood moon. (Shrug). Who cares?

[Roland]

I didn't know rain killed performance that much. That is an understandable criticism.

 

The point about the "per-player loot" would be that TFP would, theoretically, only need to balance the loot abundance for SP games. IMHO certain loot is far too abundant in SP, but I've heard many complaints that trying to balance that would kill MP. The whole issue with finding acid is a good example - the fact that it is scarce right now works in SP, but people here have been asking for ways to make it more abundant (like being able to craft it), and the usual reason is that it's far too scarce in MP games.

 

Still, not counting on it being implemented, I imagine it would be a PITA to code.

 

I fell into my normal trap of thinking in terms of MP cooperative where you are not competing for loot but are sharing and pooling loot. For each container to be able to be opened 8 times by a team of players it would be Christmas morning all the time.

 

For PVP that would probably be a great setting because you are correct that complaints of scarcity happen a lot. Of course, on a PVP server you would feel obligated to destroy any container you looted to deny the goods to others so....

[Shineblossom]

heh...we could never play together. I would annoy you to distraction because I insist on opening my own loot containers regardless of whether someone has a higher looting rating standing right next to me. If someone stepped in to open it for me and then gave me what they found I would probably shoot them with it and hope that friendly fire was active....

 

 

Funny thing is I don't feel the same way about crafting. If a mate has a better ability to craft higher quality gear and offers to craft stuff for me I thank them and accept it with no problem. I guess I like looting more than I like crafting so if someone is going to play an aspect of the game for me it better not be the one I really enjoy.

 

Well since i don't use LL lately i would not probably care And yes, friendly fire is fun.

"Am running out of the factory"

"Which exit?"

"It doesn't matter am getting out"

"WHICH EXIT? I might shoot you if i don't know which of those 6 exists you are going to use"

"Don't sweat that"

*boom*

"WHY DID YOU SHOOT ME?"

 

As i said, hella fun

[Roland]

I disagre. Being able too look beyond your own ego might be a good practice for a lot of ppl.

 

And as a designer I strongly disagree with your world view that you can't see something being benifitional for other ppl than your self.

 

I agree that looking beyond your own ego is always a good thing. Using play preferences not your own as a means to shut down discussion is not. Since we are not designers of this game but are consumers we should give feedback based on our own experience and not some hypothetical group we imagine exists. If everyone gives an accurate account of their own experience and preferences then the designers can use what they gather to temper and refine their own predilections.

 

But I think we all agree that talking about the ideas is preferable to talking about motives behind the ideas so great!

[Drunkwolf]

Sometimes you want to play but just don't feel like doing a blood moon. (Shrug). Who cares?

 

I agree, personally i have had this game for many years and have done many horde nights. sometimes i just dont feel like dealing with it. why should it bother anybody if i hop on a bike and avoid it?

 

there are times i love getting all set up and ready for horde and there are times when im like....i dont feel like shooting a green zombie 80 times in the face to kill him.

 

but in the end of the day this game is great because players have choices to play as they want, i dont understand why others care so much to try and nerf a vehicle because they dont like somebody else avoiding the horde.

[RestInPieces]

I disagre. Being able too look beyond your own ego might be a good practice for a lot of ppl.

 

And as a designer I strongly disagree with your world view that you can't see something being benifitional for other ppl than your self.

 

Solving problems for other ppl is basically the core of product and service design.

 

The creator might or might not belong to the target group. But there is still the target groups needs that are in focus.

 

Now you might be wrong about your assumptions or have the wrong data about the target group but that can also be discussed.

 

It's not that one can't see something being beneficial for other people, it's that anyone can claim that in order to argue for their opinion without using any practical arguments about the concept of their opinion. This is unproductive to a discussion.

 

Other common tropes are people claiming they belong to the majority and attacking the person instead of the argument. For example accusing the other person that his intent is malicious for making their suggestion. This is what pisses me off most personally.

 

So instead of using these pseudo-arguments that litter conversations, let's focus on real arguments about the suggestion itself, its pros and cons, details etc.

 

What happened to survival itself being a reward? Everyone wants a participation reward these days. You know, the fat ass who walked the 50 yard dash gets a ribbon kind of thing? Sorry Navezgane is an unforgiving place, not meant for the weak. Zombies have a chance to drop loot, dogs drop bones and leather, and you get boatloads of XP for killing them, yet that isn't enough?

 

Once we make the death penalty steep enough maybe you will change your tune and you'll feel grateful you survived instead of having asking for a hand out lol.

 

I think you know better than to take the "want moar rewards" posts seriously.

 

This is a long discussion but the gist is that in any environment rewards lose their meaning the more abundant they are, and as they lose their meaning, the futile need for rewards increases too. Reward requires adversity there is no other way around it.

[Aldranon]

I would like 7D2D to be something like the "Black Summer" TV show. OMG an actual scary zombie TV series!

 

So I don't know if it would require some tweaking of Unity or going to Unreal as the speed of the zombies is terrifying. There's not a lot of zombies and they don't tear down buildings but going outside would require some serious courage. What a game it could be!

[SnowDog1942]

Sometimes you want to play but just don't feel like doing a blood moon. (Shrug). Who cares?

 

Nobody.. turn it off.

[SnowDog1942]

And group has fun when they can get the good stuff. When i have LL i will not let others loot the containers. And when someone else has LL, i will help to open them but i won't loot anything.

 

Yea I see your point.

 

When someone else has higher shotgun messiah than me... only they can use shotguns.

When someone else has better strength than me, only they can use melee weapons.

When someone has higher mother load than me, only they can mine and chop trees.

When someone has higher archery than me, only they can use bows and feather.