Weekend Arguments

[TSBX]

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

 

Just like with underground bases it's not about discrimination against your play style, it's about balancing the game in general. Things that have no challenge make the game boring and just like underground bases, if the devs say it shouldn't be, stop using other users as strawmen when asking who says they can't play the way they want. For people who make the game, that's who.

[canadianbluebeer]

While I still think the code for diggers is borked, (same for jumping), I do agree that just digging down a few blocks was cheesy.

 

 

Digging to bedrock takes work. So a limit to how far underground they can sense would make...sense.

 

Again though, the entire game is still a WiP, so...

 

Now on vehicles, for the 4x4 at least, I'd put a damned ROOF on it. Close up the sides, put doors on.

 

Vultures become roadkill.

 

 

(and in evil moments, a turret for the passenger to shoot things. MG or Shotgun. pick a turret. )

(mind you, an automatic CLUB would be fun. Batter up on the vultures) heh.

[Hamburglar]

I wonder when the release date will be

[Shineblossom]

You don't understand the issue, so you just resort to calling us spoiled brats and whiners. Classy.

 

That is exactly how half of this forums is acting about other people not playing like them. Or do you think that if i did not say that aloud, it would not be true?

 

And it's really great if you find it fun. But I explained to you in as much detail as it is humanly possible, that what you may find "fun", may not be fun for others. I explained to you how we have "fun" in that situation and how the current situation does not allow us for fun options. Pointing you again to "point b)" of my post. Are you able to understand that different people find different things fun? If yes, it's a start.

 

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless. If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

 

Go ahead and show me where in the post you quoted do I mention or imply anything about what other people are doing. Why do you always want/like it to be about other people? Do you feel victimized that someone else expressed preferences different than yours or something? Why would I care about what you or anyone else is doing? Do you really feel that important?

 

My first post was reffering to mass of people doing this. You started discussion with me, adding to their side.

 

And when did I say that more than one strategies shouldn't be viable? Can you point that out?

 

See above.

 

You would "like to see those exploits to be made challenging but not harder for others"? Can you explain that more extensively?

 

I voiced that poorly, my fault.

I would love to see some work on other methods of fending off horde, like running away with a car. To make it feel real, to make it feel rewarding. It give it some actual gameplay.

I would hate tho to make the game harder by forcing people into using strategies they are not comfortable with.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

 

If you find it funny to run away from horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, go kill yourself because you have no right to have fun.

Did i get it right?

[SnowDog1942]

This is the whole underground base argument again...

 

Group A doesn't build UG bases, but hates that group B does it, so cries "Loophole! Must close the loophole!".

 

Group B is shocked because they know their play style doesn't affect group A and says "Let us play how we want!"

 

Group C, the silent majority, says "How about making underground living challenging in other ways?"

 

 

Group A2. Like group A this group didnt build UG bases. Unlike group A, A2 didnt build them because it was boring. Unlike Group A, A2 doesnt care how anyone else plays. They wanted digging zombies for THEIR OWN enjoyment so they can build UG bases and not be bored. Group B apparently has ZERO comprehension of A2 and pretend they dont exist, made apparent by your omission

[Phoenixshade35]

I've always been the type to stay above ground, but to have a bunker to retreat to when things got dicey, i admit, i never get my bunkers complete and end up just fighting the horde head on, i wouldnt mind some challenges to living underground myself to motivate me to build underground more, like needing to build vents to the surface for air, actually powering ac units to give fresh air (already in game so why not) but thats me, i want more reasons for underground to be a challenge for me to build there, what will make it more interesting is when they add npc characters you can save and have help around your base doing various tasks, if it gets added, that will be a game changer for the better I think.

[Guppycur]

Group A2. Like group A this group didnt build UG bases. This group however didnt build them because it was cheesy and boring. A2 also oesnt care how anyone else plays. They wanted digging zombies for THEIR OWN enjoyment so they can build UG bases and not be bored. Group B apparently has ZERO comprehension of A2 and pretend they dont exist, made apparent by your omission

 

Group a2 sounds an awful lot like group b...

[SnowDog1942]

That proves my line about comprehension

[Viktoriusiii]

 

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless. If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

 

How can a person be so dense and/or me focused... I'm sorry.

"Well I like it this way so YOU find another way to have fun!"

 

This is not how to argue. He tried to explain to you why subjectively you are wrong.

But we have stated hundrets of times why OBJECTIVELY beeing able to avoid the horde with minimal effort is bad.

 

 

Stop saying that you like it. Try giving us an argument that explains how beeing able to avoid the horde makes sense.

 

Is the game called "7 days to run away"?

Is it a creative sandbox or a survival game?

Is there an option in the menu to disable the hordes?

Are there different settings and commands to make you ABLE to avoid the hordes? (the answer is yes)

 

There is NO such setting for defending hordenights.

There is no "no driving while hordenight" no "no exploitive ai" setting.

 

 

 

 

What all of this boils down to:

At the start of the game, you set parimeters, in which you want to operate. Within these settings, you want to be able to overcome the challenge and feel like you did something hard. THIS is the reward.

If there was a button in Dark Souls that made you oneshot enemies WITHOUT needing any timing or preparation... would the game still be fun? Would it be rewarding to finish off bosses?

A boss is too hard... just press the button. You just lost your lifeenergy and need it back... just press the button.

No? Well just don't use that button then. Well there is no reward for not doing it except bragging rights... but wouldn't the game be objectively better without it? Without having to restrain yourself?

 

 

Same is happening here. It is not a challenge to survive, if there are obvious and easy exploits.

And what is worst: You completely lack the incentive to build a base. Which means you lack incentive to farm ressources, which means you lack exploration... which means...

And just with that little exploit, 90% of the game became absolutely unnecessary.

Could have just started a creative world and would have had the same fun.

 

 

 

also @Guppy: I think group A&C are pretty much the same. One is just annoyed more and wants change now instead of some complicated "underground poison" system, that takes 4 alphas to implement.

 

 

I take it. If they can implement it next alpha, I will LOVE those extra challenges in exchange for digging, gps zombies. But since a new mechanic is hard to implement, we beg for them to simply go the easy way and make zombies reach you anywhere.

 

giving us challenges based on location (vultures in treehouses, maggotzombies/poison air under ground, block random collapse on stiltbases and so on): 10/10

 

giving us challenges by removing exploits, meaning that zombies can "see" structural support and under ground:

6/10

 

doing nothing and keeping in the stupid exploits which ruin 90% of the game by proxy:

1/10

[RestInPieces]

That is exactly how half of this forums is acting about other people not playing like them. Or do you think that if i did not say that aloud, it would not be true?

You know what they say... if you believe something hard enough, it becomes true... for you. I certainly don't see even 1/100 of the forum caring for how others play. This is evident from threads in the general section that frequently ask about cheats, commands, mods etc. None pops up to tell them not to do this or that. I think you are making a leap of logic, when someone wants something for himself that will influence your playstyle and think it's all about you.

 

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

What does that even mean? "Find something that will make it fun for you". I know what it is and I am asking for it right now. The game is in alpha. This is a feedback forum. Perhaps what you mean is, "find something that will make it fun for you, which I won't disagree with". Which won't happen unless it's a coincidence.

 

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless.

Again, what gave you that idea? I asked you to point that out in my previous post, but you didn't (because I never implied such a thing). And you keep making assumptions about me nevertheless Maybe I am being too polite with you, considering the baseless rudeness I am receiving.

 

If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

Surviving itself should be the reward indeed. Thing is that surviving doesn't mean much if the opposite (death) bears no weight. So as MM also said, survival may be seen as more of a reward if there was a harsher DP.

 

My first post was reffering to mass of people doing this. You started discussion with me, adding to their side.

See above.

You quoted my post replying to me directly in your second post, after I replied to you, saying the quote bellow:

why are you guys acting like spoiled brats, crying out loud that those ugly bad people run from Horde when you fight which is oh no so much harder

So, weren't you referring to me as well in that post? What "mass of people" are you referring to?

 

I voiced that poorly, my fault.

I would love to see some work on other methods of fending off horde, like running away with a car. To make it feel real, to make it feel rewarding. It give it some actual gameplay.

I would hate tho to make the game harder by forcing people into using strategies they are not comfortable with.

 

That's what I want as well. Actual gameplay - a balanced choice that will make the player think of what to choose. Practical reasons that will make the choice of fighting the horde meaningful.

 

 

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

If you find it funny to run away from horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, go kill yourself because you have no right to have fun.

Did i get it right?

And this is what you said to me just above:

If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Impressive amount of self-reflection, when I was asking for features that will make BM fun for me.

[Guppycur]

That proves my line about comprehension

 

Don't be too hard on yourself; it'll click with you, I promise. =)

 

(I could do this all day too, but at some point Roland is going to spoil all the fun)

[RestInPieces]

If they can implement it next alpha, I will LOVE those extra challenges in exchange for digging, gps zombies.

 

Maggots, block infection. Blocks with my avatar gif. Best idea ever. Guaranteed

[SnowDog1942]

Don't be too hard on yourself; it'll click with you, I promise. =)

 

(I could do this all day too, but at some point Roland is going to spoil all the fun)

 

I'll make it easy then.

 

In your OP, Group B built undergound (and avoided hordes), right?.

 

The group I added (A2) did not.

 

EDIT: I see where the disconnect between us is now I think. You assume either people build or don't build underground for no particular reason but preference. Some of us want to build underground ONLY IF there are challenges like zombies.

[FA_Q2]

God can we drop this bull♥♥♥♥ claim that people are upset or want to change the way other people play. Once again, I and pretty much everyone else does not give one iota of concern with how you play. How you want to play has literally nothing to do with the fact that I want obvious exploits like driving on BM night to be addressed. It is a major issue as well.

 

The problem is that a huge part of the game is building a viable base and having fun defending it. Imagine that, particularly for a new guy, you have spent a lot of time setting up a good base. You spent some time planning it out, have your traps set and your vantage point set up. You are ready. Then, BM rolls around and while murdering the horde something goes wrong. Your plans fail. They break in. Now you have one of those oh ♥♥♥♥! moments frantically running out your back door and desperately trying to survive. Except that you now realize that you can just jog over to your minibike and casually ride away into the sunset. Or just run away as that is viable too atm. No harm, no problems surviving and the ONLY consequence comes in the form of repairing the base that you never had to build in the first place. The sense of achievement is gone. Your base layout and traps are meaningless because you can survive with nothing as you are not overcoming a challenge anymore. I know how this feels because this is exactly what happened to me and it cheapened the entire experience.

 

What should happen is that after the horde breaks in and I make a run for it there is another challenge waiting that will likely kill me. Getting on my minibike should not give me an easy out, it should present a new challenge. One more harrowing as well as the cost is significantly lower but the challenge should be much more active. This gives an actual sense of achievement in surviving the BM.

 

As MM pointed out, the reason that surviving right now is not enough is not that the rewards are to small. It is that there is no challenge to the BM because should your structure fail you still get away without a scratch and the DP is lackluster anyway. The BM needs to be a real challenge.

 

 

This is also very similar to digging zeds as has been pointed out. I can also say that I am one of those guys that flatly refused to build an underground base in 16 because it was an exploit and ruined the game. In 17, because underground now has all the elements of the game in it, most of my bases were underground. I even got my farm set up at bedrock on my last one (that was an excessive amount of work but it looked cool as hell).

 

This constant whining about people wanting to change your game play is nothing but a straw man. You are not that important. No one cares how you play.

[FA_Q2]

It definitely is not an RPG. But it does have RPG elements. It borrows mechanics normally associated with RPGs. I would classify it more as an Adventure game in which you create your own stories as you live in the world.

 

I think reducing loot drops from zombies made it less of a shooter but the fact that there is still a significant xp reward is what keeps the shooter elements continuing to feel significant.

 

It is definitely a genre mutt of a game...lol

 

The xp certainly gives that impression. It is not a shooter though either. Not by a long shot. I think that you are right, adventure is the best way to categorize it.

 

It is a mutt but almost all games are a mix these days. Computing power has moved to far to limit a game to a single type of game.

 

I really do hope that the devs add some story to the world though. The world lacks any connection between it and the player without some type of backstory.

[Poutre]

Yeah I'm actually pretty disheartened to hear that there won't be a NPC/colony system in the game, because of the performance of the game..

 

Most likely will be a mod, for when Rigs are better.

[FA_Q2]

Most likely will be a mod, for when Rigs are better.

 

I think you could do this without a real performance hit by making a colony system that does not have pathing. Basically, place a trader or other colonist block that an NPC will spawn on at some point.

[Guppycur]

I'll make it easy then.

 

In your OP, Group B built undergound (and avoided hordes), right?.

 

The group I added (A2) did not.

 

EDIT: I see where the disconnect between us is now I think. You assume either people build or don't build underground for no particular reason but preference. Some of us want to build underground ONLY IF there are challenges like zombies.

 

Naw the main focus of group B was that they don't care what others do or how they play, but that they want challenge in what they do. You are a group B member. Just because you /chose/ not to build underground, doesn't exclude you.

 

A more defined line is "Players who want others to play like they do" vs "Players who don't give a crap what others do", if that helps delineate it for you.

 

If you looked at the members who were in group B during #undergroundbasegate you'd find that the vast majority of them said something along the lines of "although I personally don't do it, I defend their rights", in addition to statements like "digging zombies is dumb, what would be better is..."

[Socrastein]

I care how other people play.

 

I care how other people do all kinds of things - workout, read, train their dog, raise their kids, play their games, cook their food, talk to their spouse, etc. etc. etc.

 

"Do whatever you find fun, who cares?" - I find any 'life philosophy' of this sort to be extremely naive and simplistic, however popular they may be.

 

First of all, YOU are composed of many competing desires, perspectives, preferences, goals, etc, much like a society or nation is. Sure you can say "country ABC chose candidate XYZ" and be right in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that about half the country didn't want that.

 

Same way someone can say "I really like cheesing horde night" and that's what "they want" in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that parts of them find this unsatisfying, lame, etc.

 

One SUPER SIMPLE example is the difference between the 'experiential self' and the 'remembering self', basically the "I have fun in the moment" and the "I have fun reflecting on where my past has led me" selves. Their interests are often, but not always, mutually exclusive: what is maximally satisfying to your experiential self might later lead to great dissatisfaction for the remembering self, and likewise what feels very rewarding in remembrance may have been an unpleasant experience.

 

What I'm saying is, it's a pretty well-established psychological truth that humans aren't great at predicting what will be most "fun" for them, not in the short term and it's even worse over the long term. So you can THINK you're doing "what you like" but simply be wrong! That's why regret, remorse, shame, guilt, etc. exist.

 

On top of that is the fact that "what we want" is not a singular, permanent drive but the manifestation of many competing drives, feelings, goals, etc. that temporarily ebb and flow in importance. Maybe you're only doing what 55% of your brain processes want, while half of you is feeling suppressed & frustrated. Does 45% of what you want not count somehow? I think it does.

 

That's the part I care about when it comes to other people doing things I don't think are in their best overall long-term interests.

 

Oh and this is another can of worms I probably shouldn't dive into lest this comment get ridiculously long & boring, but THERE IS NO HARD LINE BETWEEN LOGIC AND FEELINGS PEOPLE. That's also a very popular belief, but it's also very naive and falls apart upon thorough investigation. "Facts vs feelings" is a false dichotomy. Feelings and intuitions are far more rational and objective than most people are aware, while facts and logic are more deeply rooted in subjectivity and personal preferences than most want to acknowledge.

 

Basically when someone says "I'm being objective and you're just arguing your feelings" what they really mean is "I am unaware of the personal values underpinning my facts and also unaware of the logic & rationality underpinning your preferences".

 

And yes I agree with the geologist that before anyone focuses too much on how to address cheesing the horde with a motorcycle we should prioritize other things vehicle-related like, say, motorcycles randomly disappearing (JUST LOST SO MUCH LOOT LAST NIGHT TO THIS!) and jeeps flying into the sky.

[TSBX]

If you find it funny to run away from horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, go kill yourself because you have no right to have fun.

Did i get it right?

 

That's one hell of an extrapolation from what I actually posted, but let's start there. If you find enjoyment from running away from a horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, that's good, and I'm glad you can find entertainment in that. The issue is that hopping on a vehicle to do so only costs fuel and vehicle damage HP.

 

1.) Fuel is currently way too prevalent in A17.4

2.) There is literally no challenge to avoiding the current damage sources to a vehicle, regardless of what day it is.

 

 

Nobody is saying that you can't still run from a horde while cackling gleefully from your minibike, what most people are saying is to make it an engaging form of gameplay instead of the clear "get out of jail free card" that it is currently.

 

If things like maintenance, part quality, mechanic skill, etc were implemented into the vehicle system we have now, it would close a lot of ground to make things more engaging. Until then, having the driving spawn system as previously mentioned a few times sounds like the best way to concede to both parties. Run, you fool, but prepare to use your WASD to avoid zombies on horde night.

[Shineblossom]

That's one hell of an extrapolation from what I actually posted, but let's start there. If you find enjoyment from running away from a horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, that's good, and I'm glad you can find entertainment in that. The issue is that hopping on a vehicle to do so only costs fuel and vehicle damage HP.

 

1.) Fuel is currently way too prevalent in A17.4

2.) There is literally no challenge to avoiding the current damage sources to a vehicle, regardless of what day it is.

 

 

Nobody is saying that you can't still run from a horde while cackling gleefully from your minibike, what most people are saying is to make it an engaging form of gameplay instead of the clear "get out of jail free card" that it is currently.

 

If things like maintenance, part quality, mechanic skill, etc were implemented into the vehicle system we have now, it would close a lot of ground to make things more engaging. Until then, having the driving spawn system as previously mentioned a few times sounds like the best way to concede to both parties. Run, you fool, but prepare to use your WASD to avoid zombies on horde night.

 

Yes, as i said in my previous posts, i do agree with it being a challenge to bring fun. But i do not agree on making it impossible.

 

Currently, i am not the type who runs. I like deffending my base. But when it has its own challenge, i would love to try and ride with the BM.

[Tin]

Yes, as i said in my previous posts, i do agree with it being a challenge to bring fun. But i do not agree on making it impossible.

 

Currently, i am not the type who runs. I like deffending my base. But when it has its own challenge, i would love to try and ride with the BM.

 

Then, the one you want to butt heads with is MM. Since he is the one contemplating a mechanic that don't allow people the ability to run away. You are falling into the same trap as Grue, and going after suggestions that others are making based on what he contemplated, that can't, affect you in any way. Only TFP can.

At least, be proactive, and suggest what you would like; Instead of being reactive, to people who you think can affect your game play, but can't.

[Viktoriusiii]

Well, I also disagree with this, just like others did. We shouldn't be forced to deal with the blood moon horde, really.

 

You aren't. Just deactivate blood moon in the settings.

But all that DIDN'T deactivate it, SHOULD be forced to deal with it. Otherwise this option becomes meaningless and we are back at tile one.

[SnowDog1942]

Naw the main focus of group B was that they don't care what others do or how they play, but that they want challenge in what they do. You are a group B member. Just because you /chose/ not to build underground, doesn't exclude you.

 

A more defined line is "Players who want others to play like they do" vs "Players who don't give a crap what others do", if that helps delineate it for you.

 

If you looked at the members who were in group B during #undergroundbasegate you'd find that the vast majority of them said something along the lines of "although I personally don't do it, I defend their rights", in addition to statements like "digging zombies is dumb, what would be better is..."

 

If u dont give a crap what others do then u would be ok with me playing underground with zombie challenges and using vehicles on horde night with challenges. See its all about me, i dont care what others do. Selfish? Maybe? -- Honest, hell yea. Read ny lips; I dont care how others play, i want challenges for ME.

[Guppycur]

If u dont give a crap what others do then u would be ok with me playing underground with zombie challenges and using vehicles on horde night with challenges. See its all about me, i dont care what others do. Selfish? Maybe? -- Honest, hell yea. Read ny lips; I dont care how others play, i want challenges for ME.

 

Same. So... you're B as well. That's my point. <shrug>