Weekend Arguments

[4sheetzngeegles]

A possible balance for bloodmoon in the future releases may be. Don't disable the basic entity spawners on that night. Instead in spawning.xml add a line for "bloodmoon spawn group time="bloodmoon_night" that pulls from the bloodmoon level in entitygroups.xml, this would allow for the horde to come from everywhere, continuously until dawn. since they would be keyed on the players, no matter where you go in the 7dtd world you activate the spawners in that area continuously.

example: <spawn maxcount="20" respawndelay=".0016" time="Bloodmoon_Night" entitygroup="Bloodmoon_Horde" /> Then associate that line with the gamestage to change the spawn in the world that night.

[Roland]

Mod it!

 

If we need to...as a last resort.

 

But for now we are having a discussion on balance that the developer, himself, is engaged in. Stating reasons why proposed balancing moves are not a good idea and what might be better is a productive response. Casting people as villains who want to ruin the fun of others is less productive.

 

A well produced game is balanced so that players don’t have to pretend glaring loopholes don’t exist. It’s interesting that even the opposing camp doesn’t disagree that there is a balancing problem but they want us all to just pretend it doesn’t exist and they do this on behalf of some population they are not even members of. The loudest objections are coming from people who don’t run away from the horde themselves—or claim not to.

 

It’s just non-forum-using friends and relatives they’re looking out for?

 

Personally, I am for having to drive skillfully to not hit zombies all night and I love Guppy’s proposal of loss of traction/ chance to wipe out increasing with each zombie hit— on any day. That sounds like a fun alternative to base defending that I would probably try so as to mix things up and have a more diverse playing experience.

[AtomicUs5000]

Personally, I am for having to drive skillfully to not hit zombies all night and I love Guppy’s proposal of loss of traction/ chance to wipe out increasing with each zombie hit— on any day. That sounds like a fun alternative to base defending that I would probably try so as to mix things up and have a more diverse playing experience.

 

Ideas like this align well with the game. I seem to prefer the ideas that keep the zombies as the main threat.

The other more fantastical ideas are fun to read and imagine, but they seem out of place to me in this world.

 

In older zombie movies, you would sometimes see people driving through hordes of zombies like hot knives through butter. More recently I have watched scenes that are quite a bit more realistic. Zombie guts blocking the radiator, limbs jammed up in the wheel wells, wheels spinning on a mass of mushy gore, or simply the vehicle become overwhelmed by too many bodies and cannot push through anymore. In this world it seems feasible that I could hit a zombie and get slowed down enough to not be able to steer clear of the next one. I might even decide to hop off/out before too many hone in on the action.

 

There is this one episode of Fear the Walking Dead that demonstrates even being on a boat isn't totally safe from similar disasters. I think it was a hand or an arm that got sucked up into the boat's intake after driving over a floater and stalled the engines... until it was found and pulled out of the pipes. I don't remember the exact details, but I always thought it was awesome that someone thought of that happening.

[Roland]

It's also funny that additional unbalanced loopholes are thrown out there as some sort of reason to not fix the one that is being discussed. These examples don't make me want to give up on fixing the loophole. They just add on to the to do list.

 

 

Rooftops of buildings were mentioned..

 

Vultures nesting on rooftops would be one way to make things interesting as well as the return of a vertical wall climbing zombie. Unless you prepare that rooftop ahead of time you will be fighting off climbers who can follow you up there.

 

Treading water was mentioned..

I like the idea of a water based enemy or just make it so zombie dogs can swim. Someone (Odetta?) mentioned that changing wood blocks to be able to be placed and to float on water would be a great way to give wood building a place in the world. Then, no treading would be required. Players could build a floating base with hopefully some appropriate threats to it that could be defended against.

 

Logging off is always mentioned..

 

Who cares? We are looking to add fun for those of us who stay to play the game.

[Guppycur]

I love Guppy’s proposal of loss of traction/ chance to wipe out increasing with each zombie hit— on any day. That sounds like a fun alternative to base defending that I would probably try so as to mix things up and have a more diverse playing experience.

 

I play Zombie Driver HD when I'm super lazy and don't want to go upstairs (it's one of the few games that works well on controller so I can just use my steam box thingie ma bob on the big tv), and that's the basic gist... you can shoot at them of course, but running them over is more fun, until you run over too many... then they beat your car to ♥♥♥♥ and you die. Good times.

 

At any rate, if it was actually dangerous to drive during horde night it would solve the alleged "problem" of people playing how they want, and making the people who hole up in a spike field jealous. We can't have that!

[Phoenixshade35]

I gotta say, I like the idea of running over zombies giving trouble to the vehicle, maybe even have it so the fat zombies possibly explode on impact dealing more damage to the car than traction loss?

 

As far as balancing goes, I think a lot of things in the game are fairly balanced right now but i could toss out a few things i have been thinking about.

1. Scrapping Batteries - I know they are lead batteries and we get lead but what if there was a chance upon scrapping them we gained acid as well since that stuff is a pain to find?

2. Acid - Like my above question what about crafting it? Like take 10 Polymer, 10 Lead, Plant Fiber and 1 Bottle of Water in the Chem station, that could work.

3. What about a different bullet tip - Kinda like how we have the steel casings for the bullets now (Which is awesome by the way) why not something similar for the bullet tips?

4. Mining - I know the mining is pretty perfect right now, but what if you guys added that there is a very small percentage that hitting normal rock, not boulders can give some added resources like say maybe 5% chance or something.

 

Those are my thoughts anyways, i hope some of them sound good for the future of the game.

[Weazelsun]

It's also funny that additional unbalanced loopholes are thrown out there as some sort of reason to not fix the one that is being discussed. These examples don't make me want to give up on fixing the loophole. They just add on to the to do list.

 

 

Rooftops of buildings were mentioned..

 

Vultures nesting on rooftops would be one way to make things interesting as well as the return of a vertical wall climbing zombie. Unless you prepare that rooftop ahead of time you will be fighting off climbers who can follow you up there.

 

Treading water was mentioned..

I like the idea of a water based enemy or just make it so zombie dogs can swim. Someone (Odetta?) mentioned that changing wood blocks to be able to be placed and to float on water would be a great way to give wood building a place in the world. Then, no treading would be required. Players could build a floating base with hopefully some appropriate threats to it that could be defended against.

 

Logging off is always mentioned..

 

Who cares? We are looking to add fun for those of us who stay to play the game.

 

In addition to the vultures, my opinion is that for vehicle based escapes, water escapes, roof escapes, have the game simply spawn vultures. Considering that vultures can spit and essentially dive bomb you. There is no escape from them, sure one could use an AK to shoot them out of the sky. Anecdote, I remember when vultures were introduced in A16, and I had been wounded, now obviously there was no swimmer perk but, being in the water I would argue is more of a disadvantage than what others believe. Also, cop spit can still hit you in water.

 

Cop and vulture bile should also cause more damage to vehicles and other metal materials.

[RipClaw]

1. Scrapping Batteries - I know they are lead batteries and we get lead but what if there was a chance upon scrapping them we gained acid as well since that stuff is a pain to find?

 

The problem here seems to be a technical limitation. Currently it seems that you can only get a resource if you scrap something. This is not only the case for batteries but also for other things.

 

2. Acid - Like my above question what about crafting it? Like take 10 Polymer, 10 Lead, Plant Fiber and 1 Bottle of Water in the Chem station, that could work.

 

In my single player game I find sufficient amounts of acid for my needs. I don't know what the situation is with multiplayer games. I can imagine that there is a shortage because every player wants to have a vehicle.

 

3. What about a different bullet tip - Kinda like how we have the steel casings for the bullets now (Which is awesome by the way) why not something similar for the bullet tips?

 

In A18, hollow point projectiles are to be added. Possibly also other types of ammunition.

[Phoenixshade35]

Yeah i hear ya, maybe they could make a workbench style table to allow you to deconstruct stuff and obtain various resources, I am playing on single player and I am more wanting acid for military fiber, multiplayer i imagine it is a real pain on highly active servers, im glad to hear that different tips are being added, will make for more ways to play, I can't wait for the baseball bat i heard was being added, im also hoping for more pistols, I would even be ok with a flintlock simply for fun lol

[Doctor3D]

So many hours with my wife and family playing this game. I'd encourage peeps to grab some of those early alphas from steam and keep them just in case you can't get them next year or two.

 

Not the same game for me. I loved where it was going..hate where it went. Appreciate all the effort and dedication...just not for me. Got a gazillion times my money's worth..best value for a game ever. Thank you so much TFP..from the bottom of my heart..you made one of the most addictive and hopeful games I've ever played.

[Socrastein]

In addition to the vultures, my opinion is that for vehicle based escapes, water escapes, roof escapes, have the game simply spawn vultures. Considering that vultures can spit and essentially dive bomb you. There is no escape from them, sure one could use an AK to shoot them out of the sky. Anecdote, I remember when vultures were introduced in A16, and I had been wounded, now obviously there was no swimmer perk but, being in the water I would argue is more of a disadvantage than what others believe. Also, cop spit can still hit you in water.

 

Cop and vulture bile should also cause more damage to vehicles and other metal materials.

 

I think this is a great idea. Increasing acid damage to vehicles + writing some basic path projection so they lead their shots, forcing one to drive unpredictably and evasively so they don’t get melted by the cops and vultures, sounds awesome. Acid resistant mods would be cool.

[RestInPieces]

It's also funny that additional unbalanced loopholes are thrown out there as some sort of reason to not fix the one that is being discussed. These examples don't make me want to give up on fixing the loophole. They just add on to the to do list.

 

Yes some people have claimed that closing off loopholes compromises their freedom, will make the game lose customers, will bring about the apocalypse etc etc. No use analyzing why these "reasons" are false. They simply want to keep using these loopholes because they have gotten used to them and can't imagine themselves adapting.

 

When people say that just quote MM.

Its an ongoing effort to remove loopholes.

 

Logging off is always mentioned..

 

Who cares? We are looking to add fun for those of us who stay to play the game.

 

Exactly. Being able to stop playing doesn't mean the game should stop being consistent. Games are balanced around themselves, not external factors like the ability of the player to go to the WC, write a console command or choose a menu option. It's like saying players have the ability to turn god mode on, so why do we have health in the game?

[Roland]

Great while it lasted! Amazing even, at times. So many hours with my wife and family playing this game. I'd encourage peeps to grab some of those early alphas from steam and keep them just in case you can't get them next year or two.

 

Not the same game for me. I loved where it was going..hate where it went. Appreciate all the effort and dedication...just not for me. Got a gazillion times my money's worth..best value for a game ever. Thank you so much TFP..from the bottom of my heart..you made one of the most addictive and hopeful games I've ever played. Everyone has to move on..sometime.

 

Well...it's not done.

Hope you'll check out future builds just to see...unless you need the space on your hard drive or something...

[forger]

I thought you referred to blood moons.

 

Wandering horde size it tricky on servers, only 64 zeds are allowed at once for performance reasons, so if wandering hordes were too big POIs would be free to loot with no zombies.

 

I tested a lot wandering horde sizes to find out sweet spot for my server and found that around 130 is fine, never had any issues with no spawning zombies in POIs even while all biome spawns were multiplied by 10 so there were "wandering hordes" everywhere. But when I set hordes to 300+ the problem was that zombies got completely confused and stopped attacking players, they were uninterested in us.

Still, seeing 150 zombies coming your way and breaking through everything, also jumping over traders fence is a spectacular sight, so when you say that players can stay safe inside traders place during BM, I say - not on my server, they WILL jump over fence very easily and stay inside those walls up until player decides to leave.

Increasing biome spawns also resulted funny stuff as for some reason zombies love to hang around traders entrances, every time someone wanted to trade he had to run past 40-60 zombies and quickly close the door, obviously leaving the place was never done by using gates, only jumping from wall

Please, if you make another zombie game, make sure you can have 300+ zombie hordes, it completely changes the game, thanks!

[Gazz]

Add Alligators? ...Zombie Piranha?

Slow down there! We haven't even gotten the sharknados in!

[crazywildfire]

I think it be good if vehicles took damage in general the more you drive. These are not brand new cars or motorcycles. If you find a scrap vehicle and hotwire it how do you know what kind of shape it is in. If you make something yourself is it really top shape to last forever? Also most likely will be a gas hog on top of that. Then if I hit anything zombie or tree it should be taken more damage in general not just on BM nights. Maybe the jeep would've take as much as the rest but still should take damage then you have mods that would help in performance.

 

These things would keep me looting and getting resources to keep my vehicle up. I know, I know I don't have time to micromanage that I want to be doing this or that. I'm not saying go overkill with it to where you got to look and keep it maintained every second or anything. Not saying this alone is what would keep me looting and getting resources. Just saying it adds a little more to the game and not just for one night. It would make me wonder when and where I should take my vehicle out and to.

 

I think the electric storm is a cool idea but think it should be a random thing you don't know if it will happen or not. Don't think it should just target vehicles it should be everything. This will keep me on my toes and have different ways of defending. But this is just me in general to some I'm sure it will come across as me telling them how to play. 😉😁

[ozzysfang]

I play Zombie Driver HD when I'm super lazy and don't want to go upstairs (it's one of the few games that works well on controller so I can just use my steam box thingie ma bob on the big tv), and that's the basic gist... you can shoot at them of course, but running them over is more fun, until you run over too many... then they beat your car to ♥♥♥♥ and you die. Good times.

 

At any rate, if it was actually dangerous to drive during horde night it would solve the alleged "problem" of people playing how they want, and making the people who hole up in a spike field jealous. We can't have that!

 

I've thought the possibility for a forced dismount would be great for years

[alchemi2]

For me TFP are on the right track, with optimize and balance focus going forwards.

 

Simple balancing will solve many issues and refining what they have already.

 

All animals should be able to swim on surface of water, vultures dive bomb you if you are floating treading water now.

 

Gas is very easy to scrounge but as MM said that is easier to balance, decrease the amount found, increase fuel usage is vehicles.

 

All vehicles at present are OP against Zombies, again keep the fixes simple and this isn't just a Blood Moon issue :-

Bicycle should be be wrecked if your ramming it into Zombies and you fall and are stunned and/or injured.

Motorcycle chance of falling off on impact, increased bike and player damage.

4x4 chance of engine cut out as it accumulates damage.

Gyro copter targeted even more vultures and heavy damage from cop vomit.

 

The aim as always should not be to stop players doing their thing or having fun but make the game more challenging or risky, whatever method players choose to use.

 

After all if your all honest about your play styles, is it really that difficult to stand at the end of base design where 90% of the hoard is killed by spikes, blades, slowed with barb wire and electric fences, weakened or killed by turrets, while you pick off the odd cop or vulture with a bow or rifle.

 

Each to their own, it is always a lazy or unimaginative method to just magically (or scientifically) stop part of the game being used, as with level gated items a poor solution to the issues.

[Ezed]

Cops could throw spike strips

 

That was a joke...but tire punctures might have some merit. They could happen when driving off road or from driving over zombies or from cop spit and would require a tire change...something you wouldn't want to do with horde coming at you.

[meganoth]

Have cars get stuck and start to slip when running over a zed. Hit a stack of Zeds and you're practically done for.

 

this is what a competent solution to the problem of transport looks like on a Bloody Night.

 

I agree. But this is only half the idea, the devs then have to make sure that the danger to drive over zombies (at least on BM) is above the 1% it is now (presumably, the last time I was late on BM and had to drive through the night was in A16)

[Grue]

Again, i want challenges on horde night while driving for MY enjoyment. I dont care AT ALL how it affects you or anyone else. You might think u are the center of the universe and you may think people care about how u play. Newsflash, you and your play style, or anyone elses play style are not important to me in the slightest bit.

 

 

The sheer irony and lack of self-reflection in this post is awe inspiring.

[HerrKingsley]

If we need to...as a last resort.

 

But for now we are having a discussion on balance that the developer, himself, is engaged in. Stating reasons why proposed balancing moves are not a good idea and what might be better is a productive response. Casting people as villains who want to ruin the fun of others is less productive.

 

 

I agree but I dont think it's a good idea that TFP should base difficult level based on us veteran players.

Hence my comment on Atomic.

 

Also I dont think it's a productive response to push a agenda based on ", i want challenges on horde night while driving for MY enjoyment. I dont care AT ALL how it affects you or anyone else. " hence my mod it comment on Snowdog.

I just dont see how that will benefit the playerbase.

 

As I said. I'm fine with nerfing gas.

I like the idea of adding driving skill.

Also I like the idea of losing traction and lowering visibility during bm storm. Since it's raining. Which should also affect driving during every rainy day.

 

I want to 7dtd to be a game without shoe-horned invisible walls that forces a certain playstyle. Why?

Because I want to still be able to promote this wonderful game to friends Without it being a flawed lore.

 

And I dont think a egoistic or a eletistic view on balancing the game will improve the playerbase at all.

[Grue]

Cops could throw spike strips

 

That was a joke...but tire punctures might have some merit. They could happen when driving off road or from driving over zombies or from cop spit and would require a tire change...something you wouldn't want to do with horde coming at you.

 

I feel like you guys are over thinking it, just make the vehicles stop working when the blood moon activates the same way they do when they run out of health or gas.

 

If you get into the vehicle during a blood moon, instead of "Varooom", you get "Rrrr, Rrrrrr, <sputter, sputter, click>" noises of an engine that will not start.

[crazywildfire]

I feel like you guys are over thinking it, just make the vehicles stop working when the blood moon activates the same way they do when they run out of health or gas.

 

If you get into the vehicle during a blood moon, instead of "Varooom", you get "Rrrr, Rrrrrr, <sputter, sputter, click>" noises of an engine that will not start.

 

I think most people are sayin what is the reason for it not to start? Why just those few hours that all of a sudden it doesn't start. Then on top of that does that mean the bicycle don't move? My feet stop working to get it to move? So the question becomes that it seems like cheesy way of handling it.

[Shineblossom]

If you want to stay friends, stop this immediately. Make a rule that everyone gets to open one box in the end room of a POI you loot together. And loot, no matter how good your LL skill is. The fun of the group is more important and the LL bonus not that big.

 

And group has fun when they can get the good stuff. When i have LL i will not let others loot the containers. And when someone else has LL, i will help to open them but i won't loot anything.