Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Diragor]

I wish zombies would just go beserk on loop bases..When the AI realizes that it can't reach you and always loops it should start hitting the blocks. Thats what Night of the Dead does and it's a good idea for 7dtd too

[Aldranon]

28 minutes ago, Diragor said:

I wish zombies would just go beserk on loop bases..When the AI realizes that it can't reach you and always loops it should start hitting the blocks. Thats what Night of the Dead does and it's a good idea for 7dtd too

^

THIS is a great idea!

Maybe double the chance of berserk after a game hour passes.  Or at midnight, all zombies go straight for the player, destroying all blocks in the way.

Call it "Midnight Madness"    (until 2am),

 

Then, have all the super strong zombies for that level come at the "Witching Hour" (3am-4am).  Maybe signal that time with a "Screamers call".

 

Of course people who really like to cheese things might not like it so much.  But I think many would like an increase in challenge.

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, Gazz said:

If they do stop to destroy a block once in a while that makes it less easy to cheese the AI with an infinite loop horde base. =P

Yes, but as far as I can remember, "destroy mode" was mainly (if not always) activated when the AI pathing couldn't reach you.

I'm talking about the case when they can clearly reach you and you're literally a few paces away.

 

[Blake_]

 

 

9 hours ago, faatal said:

They are not necessarily stuck. Sight checks and pathing calculations have delays for performance reasons. They could be destroying area and not seeing you since they are not facing you. Destroy area locks them in for a bit or you could just yo-yo them back and forth by moving. I actually have a MF I'm looking at now of that happening in a warehouse and the player on shelves.

5 hours ago, Gazz said:

If they do stop to destroy a block once in a while that makes it less easy to cheese the AI with an infinite loop horde base. =P

 

Yeah, but that behaviour makes it easier for the player to engage in 1vs X combat at any other situation . They should immediately wake up from that focused behaviour once the player is 3-5 blocks away. It wouldn't make performace cry at all and right now the "what the hell" situation is that you can lick, tap and caress their heads while they hit the wall and they only start seing you after a very noticeable moment, so forcing a check at 3m distance is neither hard on the system nor bad for gameplay. What if you are 5m away? Benefit of the doubt. But I've never seen a TWD zombie turn away from a human that's nearby and stay that way if not attacked. 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Blake_ said:

 

 

 

Yeah, but that behaviour makes it easier for the player to engage in 1vs X combat at any other situation . They should immediately wake up from that focused behaviour once the player is 3-5 blocks away. It wouldn't make performace cry at all and right now the "what the hell" situation is that you can lick, tap and caress their heads while they hit the wall and they only start seing you after a very noticeable moment, so forcing a check at 3m distance is neither hard on the system nor bad for gameplay. What if you are 5m away? Benefit of the doubt. But I've never seen a TWD zombie turn away from a human that's nearby and stay that way if not attacked. 

Well if i good remember sometimes if someone were highter they didn't know what to do and watched surviors. Btw damn i wish to see mod which allow players to make wood blocks doors traps and work stations and zombie can only destroy doors traps and wood traps

[dcsobral]

6 hours ago, Diragor said:

I wish zombies would just go beserk on loop bases..When the AI realizes that it can't reach you and always loops it should start hitting the blocks. Thats what Night of the Dead does and it's a good idea for 7dtd too

Night of the Dead does that? I have never observed it. In fact, aside from jerk infected which intentionally attack base structures, their destruction mode seems pretty similar to 7d2d: if they attack base structures if they take damage that wasn't inflicted by the player.

[dcsobral]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Yes, but as far as I can remember, "destroy mode" was mainly (if not always) activated when the AI pathing couldn't reach you.

I'm talking about the case when they can clearly reach you and you're literally a few paces away.

 

Yeah, there are very weird cases when a zombie is coming in your direction -- or pathing to you -- and suddenly reverse direction and go attack some block. There was a striking example of it on Kage848's current playthrough, on the first horde night with demolishers. One of the demolishers walking down the path to him just turned 180 at one point and started going back (link at the bottom).

 

Zombies doing weird things when the player is within reach isn't uncommon in my experience. On SP in my computer the AI task takes one or two seconds to change, so if they are approaching when I suddenly go past them they won't attack me because their current task does not include attacking. Same things go for block destruction: if they are engaged on it before I make myself "available" for attacks they'll keep at it for a couple of seconds before switching to approach and attack me.

 

But that weird behavior of just deciding to stop pathing to you with no apparent reason, that I find rather frustrating. In some circumstances I can see them going to a block and attacking it, so I suspect it is all related to destroy mode, but I just can't figure out why they are doing it. It is not a case of not having a path.  In kage's case I think the demolisher's path was blocked by the zombie in front of it, but I have seen it happen with zombies that were not in contact with any other zombie.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[dcsobral]

6 hours ago, Aldranon said:

Of course people who really like to cheese things might not like it so much.  But I think many would like an increase in challenge.

 

I'm usually frustrated at people who complain about their cheese bases not working anymore. Like people who want to make an underground base where zombies just won't reach them during horde night -- that one is a pet peeve of mine because on alpha 15, before I knew zombies would not dig, I used pillar 50s on the roof of tunnels so I could defend them.

 

But you have to be careful about these things because what constitutes "cheesing" depends very much on how you think horde nights should be handled. To people who liked underground bunkers, making underground bunkers was their goal. For them, they weren't cheesing it, they were dealing with it. The same goes for loop bases. Just consider this: if there was a real zombie apocalypse then a loop base would be ideal.

 

But even leaving these more extreme cases, there are people who think the players should be directly engaging zombies during horde night with weapons and there are others that want to work between horde nights so that their bases will take care of zombies during horde night. One is focusing on the FPS element, the other is focusing on the tower defense strategy element. Making something impossible doesn't necessarily mean the game got better for one group, but it does mean the game got worse for another group.

 

The bunker builders are right to be upset: there's no point in building underground bunkers anymore. As a tower defense person I happen to enjoy this particular change because it gives me a reason to make underground bases (which, incidentally, I stopped doing since alpha 17 because digging became so much slower). 

 

On my own last YouTube playthrough I made an AFK base. It isn't a loop base, just  a base that is very effective in killing zombies without my intervention. During horde nights I use the free fly camera to see what's happening. The challenge comes in designing the base, seeing it fail and figuring out how to fix it, then keeping it repaired and the dart traps ammoed.

 

Many people might find that bases like that shouldn't be possible at all, that the players must be actively engaged in base defense on horde night, but here's the thing: if a base like this is made impossible, it won't change anything about the way these people play. It will just remove that possibility for me and people who enjoy this sort of thing.

 

Never ask for a playstyle to be made impossible because you don't want other people to do those things. And when it comes to something like this, where you have "people X might not like it" and "many would like an increase in challenge",  one has to consider whether that increase in challenge would have any effect whatsoever for the people who would like it, and I don't think so. I hate loop bases, so I just don't use them. I'd appreciate the increase in challenge but, fact is, it wouldn't change anything for me.

 

6 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Yes, but as far as I can remember, "destroy mode" was mainly (if not always) activated when the AI pathing couldn't reach you.

I'm talking about the case when they can clearly reach you and you're literally a few paces away.

 

I believe it can happen whenever a zombie takes damage, though maybe it's just fall damage.

[Blake_]

26 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

 

 

I believe it can happen whenever a zombie takes damage, though maybe it's just fall damage.

Yes. You are correct that when you hit them or when they receive damage they can snap out of it, but that "deaf and blind" behaviour shouldn't happen in the first place. If the player is very close they should immediatly notice it, not a few seconds later if the stars align. Destroy mode needs to be able to disengage if the player gets close, and not by actively punching the entity.

[JCrook1028]

22 hours ago, Blake_ said:

loot is good but it lacks flavor in the form of "enchantments"

That's a good thing in my book. I can's stand games with spells and potions etc.

[dcsobral]

31 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Yes. You are correct that when you hit them or when they receive damage they can snap out of it, but that "deaf and blind" behaviour shouldn't happen in the first place. If the player is very close they should immediatly notice it, not a few seconds later if the stars align. Destroy mode needs to be able to disengage if the player gets close, and not by actively punching the entity.

I meant the other way around. When they take damage from an unknown source (that is, not a player) they can go into destruction mode. AFAIK, not guaranteeing it.  As for immediately vs after a few seconds, that may be a matter of performance but it also helps avoiding the case where moving towards one goal makes another goal more attractive and vice verse, in a loop. It may be clear to you that the zombie can go attack you but the AI never knows for sure, and this delay helps prevent gross exploits.

 

Also, they are in rage mode. Enraged people tend to ignore their surroundings except for whatever they are focusing their rage on. Well, ok, not "rage mode" because that's a different thing (though I think any zombie in destruction mode should also be in rage mode), but the idea is that they are bashing things around in a fit of rage.

 

[Blake_]

44 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's a good thing in my book. I can's stand games with spells and potions etc.

By enchantments I meant "buffs" which really are "enchantments" of a sort in videogames. Unless there was a joke somewhere that passed me by. 

[SpaceBound]

Dear hardworking Developers, How many MFB is left to fix before hitting Experimental release?

[littlegreen]

4 minutes ago, SpaceBound said:

Dear hardworking Developers, How many MFB is left to fix before hitting Experimental release?

 

It was 32 yesterday and we know there is at least one more dev stream next Wednesday... so November in general, is I would say just as good as a guess as "December" - again, in general

[Blake_]

22 minutes ago, littlegreen said:

 

It was 32 yesterday and we know there is at least one more dev stream next Wednesday... so November in general, is I would say just as good as a guess as "December" - again, in general

Do we know that next Wednesday is going to be a Gameplay Stream for sure? Maybe I missed the words at the twitch stream, but I haven't seen the announcement yet, and they usually tell us 24 hours after. Also, the last stream is also already up on Youtube.

Spoiler

 

 

Maybe they are just looking for devs to play, or maybe 32 bugs left for 10 people are really getting done in 14 days, so next week should be the Streamer announcement for the following one. Just saying. This time it smells like a20. I believe it's really time for the "spider-meat" meme, wasn't @Laz Man the man for that?

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, dcsobral said:

 

I'm usually frustrated at people who complain about their cheese bases not working anymore. Like people who want to make an underground base where zombies just won't reach them during horde night -- that one is a pet peeve of mine because on alpha 15, before I knew zombies would not dig, I used pillar 50s on the roof of tunnels so I could defend them.

I always try to design my bases so the zombies have a fighting chance to get to me.  Not that I give them much of one, but at least it is better than thinking they had a change and not having one  😁

[Heliox]

Hey,

 

is there a update or current status on which of the pipe weapons are being released in A20?
I think it was mentioned in a playthrough that some of the pipe weapons will not be released in this A20 version.

 

Thanks!

 

Quote

9) Weapons

• Pipe Rifle
• Pipe Pistol
• Pipe Baton
• Pipe Shotgun
• Pipe Machine Gun
• Pipe weapons craftable from backpack without need for schematic
• Lever Action Rifle Tier between Bolt and Sniper
• Many weapons reskinned to apocalyptic art style

 

[Doomofman]

8 minutes ago, Heliox said:

Hey,

 

is there a update or current status on which of the pipe weapons are being released in A20?
I think it was mentioned in a playthrough that some of the pipe weapons will not be released in this A20 version.

 

Thanks!

 

 

I think all the pipe weapons but the Pipe Pistol have been seen in action in the A20 streams. Don't think I saw the Pipe Pistol and they haven't progressed far enough in those playthroughs to get the Lever Action rifle

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, Doomofman said:

I think all the pipe weapons but the Pipe Pistol have been seen in action in the A20 streams. Don't think I saw the Pipe Pistol and they haven't progressed far enough in those playthroughs to get the Lever Action rifle

 

Yeah no level action rifle yet in the playthrough series yet.  I think lathan crafted a pipe pistol tho in the playthrough with joel and rick.

2 hours ago, Heliox said:

Hey,

 

is there a update or current status on which of the pipe weapons are being released in A20?
I think it was mentioned in a playthrough that some of the pipe weapons will not be released in this A20 version.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

All of the pipe weapons in that list will be released in A20.

[khzmusik]

@faatal or whoever else can answer - How much is has the AI pathing been tested with all the new block shapes? I imagine the opportunity for horde base exploits is enormous.

 

(I personally don't care all that much, but I know others who are obsessed with it.)

 

[Khalagar]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

I think lathan crafted a pipe pistol

 

Speaking of the pipe pistol, it also presents a similar problem to Int where it doesn't fit the new design themes. They wanted to add weapons to the game that used each ammo type early game, but the Magnum ammo is still useless early on. A pipe revolver could solve that issue imo

 

Currently Magnum, Junk, and Junk Shotgun ammo are all not represented for tier 0, or even tier 1 as I think the magnum is a tier 2 weapon right?

[Outlaw_187]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:58 AM, Burrfly said:

I can enter the option 'Disabled' at 'Blood Moon Warning', which won't turn the letters red and thus won't create a warning. The option can be accessed by pressing the LEFT arrow in the setting

 

On 11/4/2021 at 7:02 AM, KhaineGB said:

You can already do this.

Or just set it to evening, because that's when the thunder starts to tell you the bloodmoon is incoming anyways.

Oh hell....thanks guys. I could a swore it was only the two options. Been a while since I've started a new world. 

 

I feel like....such...a newbie...

[Jost Amman]

8 hours ago, khzmusik said:

@faatal or whoever else can answer - How much is has the AI pathing been tested with all the new block shapes? I imagine the opportunity for horde base exploits is enormous.

 

(I personally don't care all that much, but I know others who are obsessed with it.)

 

Oh, don't worry... as soon as Jawoodle (or however his nickname is spelled) gets his hands on a copy of A20 Exp., we'll know! 

[Doomofman]

22 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Oh, don't worry... as soon as Jawoodle (or however his nickname is spelled) gets his hands on a copy of A20 Exp., we'll know! 

 

 

Welcome... To Jawoodle Park.... Duh duh duhhhh duhhh duhh

[Gamida]

22 hours ago, dcsobral said:

 

I'm usually frustrated at people who complain about their cheese bases not working anymore. Like people who want to make an underground base where zombies just won't reach them during horde night -- that one is a pet peeve of mine because on alpha 15, before I knew zombies would not dig, I used pillar 50s on the roof of tunnels so I could defend them.

 

 

Not all of us Mole People wanted to stay safe in our underground bunkers on horde night. For me it was just was just easier to make than an above ground one. I still went up on horde nights and fought...that is where the xp was.

If on a MP server we most likely had a dedicated horde base where we would go or I would even do the "drink something to keep up stamina and go round bashing in heads" thing. At least early game until I got a fair gun and some ammo.