Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Gamida said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicorp_Center_engineering_crisis

Interesting... but has nothing to do with my example, though. 

 

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

 

Also, we're not talking about people suggesting frivolous changes to the building which could impact its stability (like some players do with 7D2D when they ask features that could make the game crawl down to 1 FPS), but that guy is someone pointing out structural flaws that could compromise the building itself. It's like if some player found out a section of code that when activated could format your hard drive. Instead, those arguing the game will be doomed if TFP don't change/revert feature X, are like people saying that if the engineer doesn't put an elevator in the building, it will collapse! 

[Jost Amman]

16 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

What? we have only demonic (darkness falls mod). Asia you mean setting or type of game?

There's an Asian mod, I could only see a gameplay video a long time ago... but I can't find it on the internet... 

[RipClaw]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

 

[Jost Amman]

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

I say you're all nitpicking here and just want to win an argument.

In the case of 7D2D the bridge isn't completed yet.  

[Naz]

42 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

To be honest - 7dtd in ww2 setting would be great

Frankenstein new army is better in my opinion

I made a ww2 bunker themed base in a18, even had a hangar i could fly into with the gyro. There must be some ww2 prefabs out there.

Spoiler

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

I’d say that this is all we are asking pedestrians to do. Actually cross the bridge and report on oscillations. The good news about our venture is that no real lives are in danger by doing so. 

[Shemasheko]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

What? we have only demonic (darkness falls mod). Asia you mean setting or type of game?

 

 

[Jost Amman]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

I’d say that this is all we are asking pedestrians to do. Actually cross the bridge and report on oscillations. The good news about our venture is that no real lives are in danger by doing so. 

Excluding faatal's if he doesn't get it right with bandits, of course... 

Spoiler

 

[lord_ahriman]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

What glue problem?  The only glue problem that exists is in your fears. Until you play A21 you can’t know whether there is even a glue problem at all. The loot tables are different, the trader prices and product balance is different and even the glue crafting recipe is different. Everything you are worried about as a potential problem are things that should be worked out or changed after we get feedback from players who have played.  Even hardcore builders should actually play A21 first before concluding they are completely screwed. 

 

There are magazines available to buy at the trader and you get nine magazines as an optional quest reward per quest not to mention all the magazines you’ll find while questing. Bookstores are the mother lode. Honestly, filling vending machines with even more magazines would be overkill. 
 

The food and drink prices were adjusted to better balance the survival game as they were too easily purchased allowing the player to ignore completely murky water. They raised the prices on purpose. Why would they then erase that change by increasing quest reward money?  Again, this is something that should actually be played first and then give your feedback on whether you think prices are too high and keeping yourself fed and hydrated too difficult. 
 

Well, we wouldn’t want to be odd alpha pattern breakers…lol

 

It’s impossible for us to convey in words all the changes that make A21 work. I’ve noticed that people keep slipping into thinking that player progression is tied to the magazines and that builders will be stopped in their progression. I can understand this because even when playing it the first few times I would forget that I could still spend skill points to progress my skills independently of what magazines I had found or what I could craft. The change code wise was simple and design wise just a step apart from what we have in A20 but gameplay-wise it’s a whole new meta that you absolutely have to play to fully understand the new puzzle of early to mid game survival. 
 

 

 

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Isn't this a bit premature to complain about filter availability when nothing is known about that in mid- and late game?

 

Size of the collectors is well-known though. But have you ever made a tree farm? As a builder and miner surely. What about a garden in A16 before you could place farms easily on the top of your base? Did the size of your tree farm ever disturb you? Did you ever complain farms use up too much space to be put on top of your crafting base?

 

Think of a dew collector not as a workstation but as a "water" tree like many mods have apple trees to farm resources off and suddenly placing them somewhere in a garden apart from your base is a natural thing.

 

 

 

Again, we don't have first-hand knowledge about the drop rate of specific magazines and how to influence that to really know whether a builder will get into trouble. Sure, it is much more likely that it is detrimental to a pure builder game, but only actual experience playing A21 will show possible solutions. Remember that vending machines can be used by normal scavenger players as well, so if they simply increase the sources for magazines then normal players will craft end-game stuff in early game.

 

 

Same as above. A21 needed much rebalancing work after the crafting changes (according to the developers). You don't even know whether a lvl1 quest gives 330 dukes and what you can buy with it. 10% more money for a quest may be unneccessary, just right or totally insufficient. We won't know before playing it.

 

And I'm sure there will be stuff that is not balanced well. There are always details that fall through the net of the testers, that is what experimental and EA is for. But you won't know which details are the problem and which are not, until you play it.

 

 

I'm not overreacting nor complaining just judging by the very little we have been told as I said before writing my post:

 

"...Most of us don't have a clue about how to play A21, but from what we have been told..."

 

So, I think it's very clear I wasn't pointing fingers, just an opinion based on what we already know and it could obviously change.

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Isn't this a bit premature to complain about filter availability when nothing is known about that in mid- and late game?

Some things we already know.

 

I think it was unholyjoe who posted a fragment from the loot.xml. There the probability for the filter was given as "veryLow".  The crucible schematic has this probability in A20, for example.

 

Roland wrote that he saw the filter after each restock day at trader Rekt. The other traders don't have it always in stock. The cost is currently 1500 coins.

 

If you play with the trader, you should be able to get the filter very quickly. If you play without a trader then it will be much more difficult to get a filter.

 

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Size of the collectors is well-known though. But have you ever made a tree farm? As a builder and miner surely.

Yes I have in A15 and A16. I used the space between the trees for my garden. For the dew collectors, I could build a multi-level garden with the dew collectors on the roof. However, there must be some space between the dew collectors so that light shines through to the next level. The dew collectors can not be stacked as far as I know, because the sky must be free of obstructions. I think it was unholyjoe who wrote that.

 

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

What about a garden in A16 before you could place farms easily on the top of your base?

Actually, even then you could create a roof garden. You just had to craft soil and place it on the roof. Many did this, for example, in the Dishong challenge to grow trees for wood and food.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Matt115]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

There's an Asian mod, I could only see a gameplay video a long time ago... but I can't find it on the internet... 

 

3 hours ago, Shemasheko said:

 

 

 

To be honest - This is...............

.....

....

..

.

Accetable. Looks good. strange but consistent aestetic. I saw few medieval mods but looks just... uhh..

[Gamida]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Interesting... but has nothing to do with my example, though. 

 

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

 

Also, we're not talking about people suggesting frivolous changes to the building which could impact its stability (like some players do with 7D2D when they ask features that could make the game crawl down to 1 FPS), but that guy is someone pointing out structural flaws that could compromise the building itself. It's like if some player found out a section of code that when activated could format your hard drive. Instead, those arguing the game will be doomed if TFP don't change/revert feature X, are like people saying that if the engineer doesn't put an elevator in the building, it will collapse! 

 

 

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

An architecture student is NOT a pedestrian, but an independant expert.

 

 

 

It was a student. I wouldn't call them a expert. The engineer was a professional. Professional enough that they had actual stuff built.

 

 

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I say you're all nitpicking here and just want to win an argument.

In the case of 7D2D the bridge isn't completed yet.  

 

 

That is a weird way to get a point across isn't it. Just saying we are nitpicking to win an argument. I am not trying to win any argument. I am just adding my opinion same as everyone else.

I am also aware that 7D's isn't finished yet. Also, and this again is just my opinioin. When the argument is that a21 isn't out yet so wait until it is and you try it before you judge it I feel a lot of people (again just my opinion) feel that if they wait until everything is finished and they don't say something then when it does come out and they mention something they think could be changed the answer will just be "Well it's already in the game now we are not going to change it because some people don't feel it fits."

[beerfly]

13 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

When are we getting A21 experimental?

*summoning a screamer horde on you* 

[Roland]

8 minutes ago, KenGross said:

that was a good watch thanks for the post!   hay with the new crafting system is there any chance we might get to craft tier 6 stone or iron tools?  

 

Until legendary gear becomes a thing I don't think there is a chance. If legendary gear makes it into the game (something Joel really wants btw) then there is a chance that T6 could be returned to the crafting progression and the legendary tier becomes the one that is non-craftable.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Gamida said:

I am also aware that 7D's isn't finished yet. Also, and this again is just my opinioin. When the argument is that a21 isn't out yet so wait until it is and you try it before you judge it I feel a lot of people (again just my opinion) feel that if they wait until everything is finished and they don't say something then when it does come out and they mention something they think could be changed the answer will just be "Well it's already in the game now we are not going to change it because some people don't feel it fits."

 

I've seen this argument made again and again but the reality is that the developers are never going to listen to feedback based upon a partial description of what a new feature in A21 is going to be. It is possible that they will later say "Too late, it's already in and we're not going to change it" but it is also possible that they will take negative feedback and use that to rebalance the feature to make it more fun for everyone. What is definitely not possible is them taking the suggestions of people to adjust or revert it now who've never played with it. They just don't see all these hypothetical fixes to hypothetical problems as being worthy of their time. They want actual data.

 

So while it may be true that they might reject any feedback after the fact because its already done and in, that is really the only window of opportunity that exists. Until that time they debate and consider issues internally on the team. I can say that every concern that people bring up are concerns that have been considered and discussed by the team. So far, nobody has brought up anything that the team never considered. That doesn't mean, though, that the level of importance that they place (on the dew collector footprint for example) will always match the the level of importance that some of the players place on such things and so there will sure to be opportunities for feedback and revisiting certain things. 

 

In the end, the final decision rests with the developers. They re-iterated that design philosophy tonight in their interview-- that they appreciate player feedback on balance and fun-factor on implemented features players have actually experienced whereas they retain design decisions for what goes into the game, what gets cut from the game, and what gets changed in the game for themselves. So, if you really think about it, they aren't even asking for our input on things that haven't been released yet which means the community has zero chance of speaking up now to get things cancelled or reverted before its too late. It's already too late once the development team decides a change is going to happen. There won't ever be a community poll for whether something new is going to be added, cut, or changed before the fact. That same philosophy will surely continue into their next projects as well.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Some things we already know.

 

I think it was unholyjoe who posted a fragment from the loot.xml. There the probability for the filter was given as "veryLow".  The crucible schematic has this probability in A20, for example.

 

Roland wrote that he saw the filter after each restock day at trader Rekt. The other traders don't have it always in stock. The cost is currently 1500 coins.

 

If you play with the trader, you should be able to get the filter very quickly. If you play without a trader then it will be much more difficult to get a filter.

 

Yes, but how difficult? If you want as many filters as possible (unlike Roland in his test), how many filters and with it dew collectors will you have on day 40? Just tell me the number range that (lets say) 80% of players who do this will reach. Also, please tell me the amount of water you typically need for drinking, making food and various other recipes.

 

Note that "veryLow" is not really a fixed chance. It will get you different amounts of this item if you have a lot box with just one other possible item in it or 10 other possible items. Just one of the many things to take into your calculation.

 

Could you do this please? Maybe then we can prematurely calculate whether some players will have a problem. If not, there is still a lot of information missing to get a complete picture. We have enough knowledge to guess that there might be a possible problem, or not. That's about it.

 

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

Yes I have in A15 and A16. I used the space between the trees for my garden. For the dew collectors, I could build a multi-level garden with the dew collectors on the roof. However, there must be some space between the dew collectors so that light shines through to the next level. The dew collectors can not be stacked as far as I know, because the sky must be free of obstructions. I think it was unholyjoe who wrote that.

 

I was telling the OP about the possibility to place dew collectors anywhere, not just on top of a base. And I was suggesting that he probably already put similar production thingies on the ground instead of on top of a base when he was playing earlier alphas. And it worked then, so why shouldn't it work now?

 

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

Actually, even then you could create a roof garden. You just had to craft soil and place it on the roof. Many did this, for example, in the Dishong challenge to grow trees for wood and food.

 

 

I know. I explicitly said "...before you could place farms **easily**...". 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Zombiepoptard]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Until legendary gear becomes a thing I don't think there is a chance. If legendary gear makes it into the game (something Joel really wants btw) then there is a chance that T6 could be returned to the crafting progression and the legendary tier becomes the one that is non-craftable.

 

Roland tell me how it makes sense for you to max out your crafting to not be able to craft a legendary? (rhetorical) Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary. You need to find a rare item and have your crafting maxed out. crafting needs to be apart of end game and there is no downsides to my system AND YOU KNOW IT BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOYYYYY!

[unholyjoe]

11 minutes ago, Zombiepoptard said:

 

I think the community just wanted to hear from Joel and Rick to be honest. They've been distant and should re-affirm us on their plans for the game every once in awhile. 

now you want it to sound as if you are owed something. hmmmm

 

but i know you are just fun'n .... right... hehe

[bdubyah]

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

 

Roland tell me how it makes sense for you to max out your crafting to not be able to craft a legendary? (rhetorical) Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary. You need to find a rare item and have your crafting maxed out. crafting needs to be apart of end game and there is no downsides to my system AND YOU KNOW IT BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOYYYYY!

I mean, I know you put rhetorical and all, but you are kidding, right? What sense would crafting legendary items make? Those should definitely be loot only.

[NukemDed]

more like he has broken them and eaten them as that is what i would do if my beard was that.... milk drinky

 

amirite @beerfly?

[Jost Amman]

7 hours ago, Gamida said:

That is a weird way to get a point across isn't it. Just saying we are nitpicking to win an argument. I am not trying to win any argument. I am just adding my opinion same as everyone else.

Yes, you're adding your opinion by replying to my opinion with (IMO, lol) partially unfitting counterarguments.

[Zombiepoptard]

3 hours ago, bdubyah said:

I mean, I know you put rhetorical and all, but you are kidding, right? What sense would crafting legendary items make? Those should definitely be loot only.

 

No I'm not kidding and I explained how it would still be lootable as well. You did read  "Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary"   right? Just have the legendary be broken and need the max lvl to fix it. Easy basic problem solving skills!

 

1. Makes your hard work getting to max level worth it in the end game

2. Crafting doesn't take a back seat. 

3. AGAIN WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE 

 

4 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

now you want it to sound as if you are owed something. hmmmm

 

but i know you are just fun'n .... right... hehe

 

Explain your grievance unholyjoe.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Zombiepoptard (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

17 minutes ago, Zombiepoptard said:

No I'm not kidding and I explained how it would still be lootable as well. You did read  "Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary"   right? Just have the legendary be broken and need the max lvl to fix it. Easy basic problem solving skills!

 

1. Makes your hard work getting to max level worth it in the end game

2. Crafting doesn't take a back seat. 

3. AGAIN WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE 

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

Could you do this please? Maybe then we can prematurely calculate whether some players will have a problem. If not, there is still a lot of information missing to get a complete picture. We have enough knowledge to guess that there might be a possible problem, or not. That's about it.

I agree that we need more information but without the information you can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster".

But if you point out a possible problem in advance, the developers can check before the release by, for example, instructing the test players not to buy filters from the trader or do quests and then give them feedback.

 

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

I was telling the OP about the possibility to place dew collectors anywhere, not just on top of a base. And I was suggesting that he probably already put similar production thingies on the ground instead of on top of a base when he was playing earlier alphas. And it worked then, so why shouldn't it work now?

Well there is a small difference. If a zombie knocks down a tree in a tree farm, not much is lost. There is no shortage of trees. On the other hand, if a zombie destroys a dew collector, you need another filter to replace it.

Therefore, you will want to protect your dew collectors. Either by enclosing the dew collectors with a wall or by placing them on a roof.

 

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

I know. I explicitly said "...before you could place farms **easily**...". 

Crafting soil was no more difficult than crafting the farm plot. There is actually no difference.

 

[Callum123456789]

From the dev interview with Rick and Joel going over questions GNS I'm interested to see what the unannounced QOL features are since it would be like a cherry on the top for a good alpha as well aswell as that 3 independent games being worked on? Sounds like they've got their hands full.

 

and another thing I'd like to touch on with the overall sentiment with alpha 21 is people saying this alpha will be bad or they are working to remove the fun out of this game this is entirely incorrect they are trying to polish the game and fix exploits that remove all the danger and risk factors of the game it's best we withhold judgement to an alpha rather than stabbing at thin air and attempting to formulate an opinion.

 

I myself was a little sceptical about the water system but I was like why should I think in my mind oh its going to be bad due to other people thinking its bad I'm waiting untill the alpha drops to experience this myself and if I like it fine if I don't like it well its gonna be tough s$#t ill get used to it eventually but the water change isn't happening for no reason either its here to add challenge to the game because crafting 125 jars in a forge isn't difficult however you'll have to work your way up to getting a sustainable source of water that isn't a simple and easy process.

 

And for the crafting changes people do complain saying why are they completely overhauling systems almost 10 years into development it isn't a complete overhaul it is something that has been carefully worked on ever since the skill trees inception back in alpha 13 Learn by doing was a place holder the current system in alpha 21s skill systems sounds to be a more refined alpha 20 skill tree most likely being a finalised system and the new system will make sure you can't just skip to quality level 5 items on day 2 if you perk into something heavily because if you do that you skip progression and find yourself not appreciating any small gear upgrades like oh hey I have a lvl 2 club I found some club books now I can craft a lvl 3 wooden club it isn't a huge upgrade but I'm happy with slowly getting more powerful rather than oh hey I can craft lvl 5 clubs by day 2 I found a lvl 3 in a sports bag boo hoo to my perception this system is here to make you have small but more and more significant upgrade points in your time playing the world you won't beat the game by day 20 you'll work your way up to that level the devs feel right.

 

That's the end of my take on a few of the changes coming to alpha 21 I hope that if some of you guys who were sceptical of those 2 main changes have been put to rest from me describing why this is necessary and always thanks fun pimps for such a unique and thrilling experience of a game (: 

 

-Callum

Edited November 2, 2022 by Callum123456789 (see edit history)