Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[zztong]

In game terms I'm sure it makes sense, but I get a chuckle out of the notion there might be a "legendary shovel." Hear now, let me tell you about ol' Sodbuster. 😜

Edited November 2, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[Gamida]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Yes, you're adding your opinion by replying to my opinion with (IMO, lol) partially unfitting counterarguments.

 

9 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I've seen this argument made again and again but the reality is that the developers are never going to listen to feedback based upon a partial description of what a new feature in A21 is going to be. It is possible that they will later say "Too late, it's already in and we're not going to change it" but it is also possible that they will take negative feedback and use that to rebalance the feature to make it more fun for everyone. What is definitely not possible is them taking the suggestions of people to adjust or revert it now who've never played with it. They just don't see all these hypothetical fixes to hypothetical problems as being worthy of their time. They want actual data.

 

So while it may be true that they might reject any feedback after the fact because its already done and in, that is really the only window of opportunity that exists. Until that time they debate and consider issues internally on the team. I can say that every concern that people bring up are concerns that have been considered and discussed by the team. So far, nobody has brought up anything that the team never considered. That doesn't mean, though, that the level of importance that they place (on the dew collector footprint for example) will always match the the level of importance that some of the players place on such things and so there will sure to be opportunities for feedback and revisiting certain things. 

 

In the end, the final decision rests with the developers. They re-iterated that design philosophy tonight in their interview-- that they appreciate player feedback on balance and fun-factor on implemented features players have actually experienced whereas they retain design decisions for what goes into the game, what gets cut from the game, and what gets changed in the game for themselves. So, if you really think about it, they aren't even asking for our input on things that haven't been released yet which means the community has zero chance of speaking up now to get things cancelled or reverted before its too late. It's already too late once the development team decides a change is going to happen. There won't ever be a community poll for whether something new is going to be added, cut, or changed before the fact. That same philosophy will surely continue into their next projects as well.

 

 

One last thing then I will be out of your hair on this subject.

 

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I agree that we need more information but without the information you can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster".

 

Which I haven't (to my knowledge). I said to the OP that his change suggestions were premature. And they are even in your estimation if you agree that we can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster" . Would you agree?

 

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But if you point out a possible problem in advance, the developers can check before the release by, for example, instructing the test players not to buy filters from the trader or do quests and then give them feedback.

 

See Rolands reply about that. And I was not talking about the feedback that there might be problems. The OP was already in the process of fixing them while he didn't even know how big the potential problem is.

 

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

Well there is a small difference. If a zombie knocks down a tree in a tree farm, not much is lost. There is no shortage of trees. On the other hand, if a zombie destroys a dew collector, you need another filter to replace it.

 

Good point. But I see that as a positive: I liked how we had to protect our farms in A15 because a zombies wandering over a plant could destroy it. Wouldn't be bad if something like that comes back to make farming more interesting, more involved.

 

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Therefore, you will want to protect your dew collectors. Either by enclosing the dew collectors with a wall or by placing them on a roof.

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

Crafting soil was no more difficult than crafting the farm plot. There is actually no difference.

 

 

The difficulty is the knowledge. It was something veterans would do (and players who watched veterans on youtube)

[Uncle Al]

4 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

 

'Rare item required to craft top tier/legendary' has occured to me too. It's worked quite well in other games. Roguestones/White Diamonds and what have you.  Having loot only rare craft ingredients is not the same as having top quality gear be completely uncraftable. The differences between looting the weapon and the crafting item are:

 

• You only get the full benefit of the 'rare crafting item' IF you've also invested in crafting skill. On the flip side, you get some choice as to how it's used rather than a weapon/armour drop where the item may be completely useless to you.
• Your investment in crafting skill isn't suddenly invalidated by a drop. Spending your game obsessively chasing specific crafting magazines only to have a Q6 drop make all that effort totally redundant feels bad, even though you've mechanically improved. Getting a Q6/legendary drop should not feel bad.
• You can promote hard choices: Imagine a rare optional crafting ingredient that raises the quality of what you craft by one level. Do you use it now or save it for later? Do you craft a top quality mid tier item, or a mid quality top tier item or save it until you can craft Q5 top tier stuf (maxed crafting skill) and use it to craft a Q6 top tier? That's an interesting choice...

 

Definitely 'I can sit at home and craft everything' is not good gameplay, but 'looting eventually makes my crafting skills pointless' isn't either. 'I'm a great crafter so occasionally my looting gives me the chance to craft something just as good as what can be found by looting' is good game play, to my mind.

[Guppycur]

14 hours ago, Matt115 said:

I saw few medieval mods but looks just... uhh..

Medieval.  Just a few of my prefabs; we have hundreds more now, this was a while ago.  

 

https://youtu.be/bODlCxI6eIg

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[mstdv inc]

7 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

You have a little strange logic.There are three ways to get items in the game: find, buy, craft.To find an item, you need to loot, to buy an item, you need to loot, sell what you don't need and buy what you need.To craft an item, you need to loot to find the right details.All three ways of obtaining items imply looting.Therefore, the player has the right to buy or craft an item no worse than he can find.The risk is the same in all cases.On the contrary, I am in favor of the fact that the player, with a certain development of perks, could craft all items, including solar panels and elements, as well as items of the tier 6. Without this, crafting cannot be considered complete.
But in order for everything to be in balance, a system of specializations is needed.If a player becomes a nerd, he will be weak in battle.If this is a strong fighter, he will not be able to craft anything better than stone tools.And now players simply increase the characteristics of strength and intelligence and get everything at once.This is not right.There is no sense in other characteristics now at all.

Try once not to use strength and intelligence in your survival.The game will open up for you from a completely different side.

Edited November 2, 2022 by mstdv inc (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

17 minutes ago, mstdv inc said:

You have a little strange logic.There are three ways to get items in the game: find, buy, craft.To find an item, you need to loot, to buy an item, you need to loot, sell what you don't need and buy what you need.To craft an item, you need to loot to find the right details.All three ways of obtaining items imply looting.Therefore, the player has the right to buy or craft an item no worse than he can find.The risk is the same in all cases.On the contrary, I am in favor of the fact that the player, with a certain development of perks, could craft all items, including solar panels and elements, as well as items of the 6th shooting gallery.Without this, crafting cannot be considered complete.
But in order for everything to be in balance, a system of specializations is needed.If a player becomes a nerd, he will be weak in battle.If this is a strong fighter, he will not be able to craft anything better than stone tools.And now players simply increase the characteristics of strength and intelligence and get everything at once.This is not right.There is no sense in other characteristics now at all.

Try once not to use strength and intelligence in your survival.The game will open up for you from a completely different side.

I agree with BDub.  It makes no sense that with a @%$#ty workbench I can make something as good as a factory quality item, despite any perks into it.

 

My take would be lvl 1-4, craftable.  lvl 5 non existent.  lvl 6 lootable only.  

 

The lvl 4's would be "good enough", and the lvl 6's would be rare finds that encourage exploration and looting, without requiring some stupid perk, and they would be from "the old world" which is just inherently better than anything made "today", because it has factory precision and better material quality.

 

...you'd be able to play just fine with lvl 4 gear, but lvl 6 would just excite you and make you work harder not to die, thus encouraging all forms of gameplay.

3 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

I agree with BDub.  It makes no sense that with a @%$#ty workbench I can make something as good as a factory quality item, despite any perks into it.

 

My take would be lvl 1-4, craftable.  lvl 5 non existent.  lvl 6 lootable only.  

 

The lvl 4's would be "good enough", and the lvl 6's would be rare finds that encourage exploration and looting, without requiring some stupid perk, and they would be from "the old world" which is just inherently better than anything made "today", because it has factory precision and better material quality.

 

...you'd be able to play just fine with lvl 4 gear, but lvl 6 would just excite you and make you work harder not to die, thus encouraging all forms of gameplay.

 

...

 

Oh, and being able to repair lvl 6 items would go away as well.  They'd last a lot longer, but none of this duct tape to repair BS.

[Roland]

The problem right now is not that purple tier items are loot only and so that invalidates the blue tier items you crafted. The problem is that purple tier items are so common that you can be entirely kitted out with them. That was the mistake, imo. If you could only get 2-3 pieces of equipment or armor total in a play through of highest tier then everything you crafted would stay relevant and the few things you found would be special items. 
 

Legendary items are going to have various tier levels but they are going to have a permanent mod attachment that cannot be removed and that will provide an awesome ability not available in any other way. 
 

So, yes, that legendary shovel, Ol’ Sodbuster, might be a yellow tier steel shovel with a non-removable mod that increases attack speed for every clump of grass you destroy with a 10 second window so that you can clear all the grass in an area blindingly fast.  Stuff like that and you probably won’t get very many in any particular play through and they won’t be necessarily meant to be the next tier up that you would try and obtain for every weapon, every armor piece, and every tool. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Gamida]

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

So, yes, that legendary shovel, Ol’ Sodbuster, might be a yellow tier steel shovel with a non-removable mod that increases attack speed for every clump of grass you destroy with a 10 second window so that you can clear all the grass in an area blindingly fast.

 

Wait? What? Tell me more about this amazingly wonderful device that I absolutely need.

 

 

 

 

(And if you think I am joking just ask Guppy)

[Roland]

35 minutes ago, Gamida said:

 

Wait? What? Tell me more about this amazingly wonderful device that I absolutely need.

 

 

 

 

(And if you think I am joking just ask Guppy)

Well, it only exists in my brain as an example of the type of things Joel is thinking of for “legendary” items. But when he starts adding such things I’ll be sure to mention 0l’ Sodbuster!

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

Very few modders make their own props, Rick was entirely right in that regard.  Most are purchased from the unity store then subjected to modifications. 

Well idk what about props in 7dtd situation but often npc are taken from diffrent games - alma from F.e.a.r i saw harley quin from batman arham city. I don't have problem with that if this is done good - alma as zombie kid looks ok - it's looks like vanilia model but harley so much like much diffrent game. Well - if you take skyrim immersive creature as example -  modife psedogigant  from stalker looks good. Just only - inconsistent choice of models in many 7DTD mods hurts a lot. If this will change after workshop? probably. But.... this depend how much this will take.  To be honest : if anyone want advice if something would suit i'm read to help

 

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

Partially true.  It is very costly and risky to venture off and try something new and untested in the market.  There is the cost to develop tech. and the risk of failing to make X dollars.

 

CoD / Activision is a great example.  Relatively less new tech. to develop, and is a tried and true formula that still sells in the market.

 

Thankfully TFPs are willing to spend the time and resources to create a unique blend of experiences no one else has copied yet.

 

With the exception of Microsoft, as far as minecraft is concerned, so what?  Some new IPs and great games would never have existed if people were afraid to be competitive just be because there is already another well established game in the market.

 

 

And... many don't exist and ... because don't exist i can't show you them as example. But - is there any similiar game to CoD? To be honest - no.  Medal of honor tried but failed. Battalion 44 failed too... If you compare with diffrent FPS -let hell loose could be competitor to.. Arma not CoD. 

Witcher and AC  valhhala are similiar  games. Lies of P is similiar to dark souls or nioh. But such games are pretty safe... same base just diffrernt setting and bigger focus on diffrent things - it's much easier to create small and pretty empty locations that RWG with good quality POI.  But it's pretty safe.  Autor of Mistborn books wanted to give CDP for free rights to create game basic on his IP and... ofc no chance because create such  movement and combat system would be to risky for AAA game. SNK have something like that but.. doesn't sell as good as much safer games. Sony risked with Days gone - still much safer that 7dtd like game but sold not good enough for sony.

 

Ofc this don't have to be big game - little nightmares is example how to make good platformer with lower budget but.... limbo is similiar and sold good so this was much less risky thing and pretty simple -  there is few indie similiar game to little nightmares because not such hard to make.

 

Another thing is... merch - you know about COD mugs, figures, t-shirts even brick?  Horizon will have tshow and have lego sets. MC is pretty family friendly - so you can sell toys shirts etc.  Ofc 7dtd have this but it's just small addition not big source of income. 

 

Only big but risky game like 7dtd is.... COH3. But will be coh3 good game? hard to say - they delyed released by 4 months. Fun fuct - polish company called Cobi is makling bricks sets as coh3 sets - here is better situation - why? because even if coh3 will be bad game - sets will sell good because... Cobi making a lot of ww2 sets so this would not change a lot.  Most companies won't risk soo much - 7dtd is specific game like Medieval dynasty. Ofc they could try but... even if game get good opinions of players - didn't sold good enough to be consider as realistic success - because it this same time there could be done more generic but less costly game - Red faction series as example or spec ops the line

 

That's why we have so many battle royal - low risk to make - just more complicated DM on big maps. While RTS market is pretty dead - there is a lot of things to have chance to get finansal success

 

 

I hope TFP wiill do idk - medieval 7dtd, japan 7dtd itd because nobody will risk with something like this. That's why this is just sad because.... only hope is that TFP want to make such games. But until they will publish news about their new game it will take 2-3 years and it's not guarranted if they don't want to do dunno PVP like rust or Coop game with ghost instead something similiar.
 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Roland]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But if you point out a possible problem in advance, the developers can check before the release by, for example, instructing the test players not to buy filters from the trader or do quests and then give them feedback.

 

There is going to be a problem if you don't use the trader and you want explosive bolts for horde night. Period. I can tell you that right now. There may even be a problem if you don't want drinking water be a survival struggle for your entire playthrough.

 

I can also say that choosing to play without traders is a choice that is going to bring certain challenges and limitations. The devs are not obligated to try and balance the game for those who choose to ignore a portion of the game. Their assumption is that players are going to use the elements in the game that are present and if a player chooses to ignore a part of the game then it is to challenge themselves and so any subsequent imbalances that occur would be part of that challenge. It would be like a player resolving not to use any vehicles because they strongly believe that the vehicles in the game are unrealistically easy to craft with the tools and workstations present in the game. So they don't use vehicles but then complain that some quests are 2km away because that is too far to go on foot to make it worth it. And then they complain that the devs are forcing them to use vehicles which goes against their preferred playstyle.

 

I'm 99% certain that those who want to be able to find enough filters to mass produce glue and to progress beyond the hydration struggle but also play without traders are going to have to mod the loot tables to increase the chance of finding filters.

[RipClaw]

52 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'm 99% certain that those who want to be able to find enough filters to mass produce glue and to progress beyond the hydration struggle but also play without traders are going to have to mod the loot tables to increase the chance of finding filters.

This should not be a big problem. unholyjoe once posted a snippet from the loot.xml. Based on this, a mod to change the probability from very low to low should look something like this:

 

<set xpath="/lootcontainers/lootgroup/item[@name="resourceWaterFilter"]/@loot_prob_template">low</set>

 

As far as I know, veryLow has a 5% chance and low has a 20% chance. There would also be medLow with 35%.

Edited November 2, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

Not likely to change matt.  We scrounged the internet for free and cheap models.  To model from scratch just isn't something most of us are capable of.  As far as inconsistencies, very true, but that's what modding is for.  Remove the ones you don't like. 

[Guppycur]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Well, it only exists in my brain as an example of the type of things Joel is thinking of for “legendary” items. But when he starts adding such things I’ll be sure to mention 0l’ Sodbuster!

No, you don't understand.  Gam is autistic and NEEDS to wage a war on grass.  It's that or he cries while awake... something about "you shot me" or something, I don't recall. 😃

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

Not likely to change matt.  We scrounged the internet for free and cheap models.  To model from scratch just isn't something most of us are capable of.  As far as inconsistencies, very true, but that's what modding is for.  Remove the ones you don't like. 

I see 😕 Thx 

[Howlune]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

The problem right now is not that purple tier items are loot only and so that invalidates the blue tier items you crafted. The problem is that purple tier items are so common that you can be entirely kitted out with them. That was the mistake, imo. If you could only get 2-3 pieces of equipment or armor total in a play through of highest tier then everything you crafted would stay relevant and the few things you found would be special items. 
 

Legendary items are going to have various tier levels but they are going to have a permanent mod attachment that cannot be removed and that will provide an awesome ability not available in any other way. 
 

So, yes, that legendary shovel, Ol’ Sodbuster, might be a yellow tier steel shovel with a non-removable mod that increases attack speed for every clump of grass you destroy with a 10 second window so that you can clear all the grass in an area blindingly fast.  Stuff like that and you probably won’t get very many in any particular play through and they won’t be necessarily meant to be the next tier up that you would try and obtain for every weapon, every armor piece, and every tool. 

You have no idea how much of a relief it is to hear someone higher up admit to tier 6 being way too common is a problem. It absolutely cuts down the potential play time of the game. When you have the best of everything you lose reasons to keep looking. Same goes for things like airdrops giving 500 steel blocks haha. I get some things are for accessibility or simplicity, but drop rates are entirely separate from that. Things need to feel special to trigger that dopamine reponse.

[Guppycur]

7 minutes ago, Howlune said:

You have no idea how much of a relief it is to hear someone higher up admit to tier 6 being way too common is a problem. It absolutely cuts down the potential play time of the game. When you have the best of everything you lose reasons to keep looking. Same goes for things like airdrops giving 500 steel blocks haha. I get some things are for accessibility or simplicity, but drop rates are entirely separate from that. Things need to feel special to trigger that dopamine reponse.

Woah.  Don't be giving Roland a big head by calling him "Higher Up".  According to a recent video, he's already got an ego.

 

(which I find truly hysterical; I've interacted with Roland for years on a few levels and I find him incredibly down to Earth).

[Howlune]

5 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Woah.  Don't be giving Roland a big head by calling him "Higher Up".  According to a recent video, he's already got an ego.

 

(which I find truly hysterical; I've interacted with Roland for years on a few levels and I find him incredibly down to Earth).

I think the "small jabs" the video points out are just products of dealing with the unruliness in the community over the years. Its human. I can't say I'm a big fan of the recent direction the games been heading in either, but yelling and being unreasonable with the people who work on or for it gets none of us anywhere.

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Woah.  Don't be giving Roland a big head by calling him "Higher Up".  According to a recent video, he's already got an ego.

 

(which I find truly hysterical; I've interacted with Roland for years on a few levels and I find him incredibly down to Earth).

What was that?

 

I’m sorry but the wind factor way up here is so powerful it makes it hard to hear you way down there gup!  Let me drift down a bit to where Laz is and see if he could make out what you were saying….

[zztong]

8 hours ago, Gamida said:

Wait? What? Tell me more about this amazingly wonderful device that I absolutely need.

 

Most people are familiar with John Henry's sledgehammer, used in his epic race against a steam-powered drill.

 

But ol' Sodbuster was used in the mid 1920s by Barclay Grainger of Navezgane AZ to out plow a tractor of the time. You still see ol' Sodbuster on display in Western Town at the Navezgane Museum.

 

Now I'm wondering what the Legendary Auger will be. That'll be popular.

Edited November 2, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[beerfly]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

Now I'm wondering what the Legendary Auger will be. That'll be popular.

It will convert the corn bread into doughnuts. 

[Laz Man]

28 minutes ago, beerfly said:

It will convert the corn bread into doughnuts. 

 

No way....everyone knows corn bread converts into cornnuts....😅

[JayBiggS]

My guess for the next game using 7d2d technology:

A survival rpg with vampires and static terrain, because TFP have mentioned these things before. Do I get a cookie?

[bdubyah]

14 hours ago, mstdv inc said:

You have a little strange logic.There are three ways to get items in the game: find, buy, craft.To find an item, you need to loot, to buy an item, you need to loot, sell what you don't need and buy what you need.To craft an item, you need to loot to find the right details.All three ways of obtaining items imply looting.Therefore, the player has the right to buy or craft an item no worse than he can find.The risk is the same in all cases.On the contrary, I am in favor of the fact that the player, with a certain development of perks, could craft all items, including solar panels and elements, as well as items of the tier 6. Without this, crafting cannot be considered complete.
But in order for everything to be in balance, a system of specializations is needed.If a player becomes a nerd, he will be weak in battle.If this is a strong fighter, he will not be able to craft anything better than stone tools.And now players simply increase the characteristics of strength and intelligence and get everything at once.This is not right.There is no sense in other characteristics now at all.

Try once not to use strength and intelligence in your survival.The game will open up for you from a completely different side.

Um, I never said anything about crafting Q6 things. I was talking about the potential legendary items Roland was talking about. Hell, I even allow Q6 crafting in my mod, so I have no problem there. But a legendary item should be special. If you can craft it, to me, that makes it not special.