Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, Kyram said:

Look I love this game, we all do. A lot of the comments I'm seeing from The Fun Pimps staff are very concerning. We the players who have all invested into your game have legit concerns and we're met with disdain and mockery. It's like y'all won't listen to your player base who have collectively spent MILLIONS of hours with this game. Im not saying you have to do everything we say but if we have legit concerns maybe address them in a manner that doesn't feel like "you don't like it to bad". Many in the community have legit concerns about overhauling the skill system once again and the water system, what's wrong with the water mechanics in 7 days?

 

What's wrong with water? D1 and you never even once have to be concerned about your water supply, That's what is wrong with it now.

[Roland]

24 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

What's wrong with water? D1 and you never even once have to be concerned about your water supply, That's what is wrong with it now.

Also when you swim in it, it feels like molasses. In A21 swimming is silky smooth. I don’t get why people wanted water to just stay the same forever. It needed some love…

 

Was that too inappropriately jokey for anyone? 😜

Edited October 23, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

Yeah, I did joke around at times but that in no way accurately shows the totality of my responses. I have also clearly stated the purpose, clarified how it works, and given many legitimate answers over and over and over since the very first moment it was announced. He didn't showcase any of the informative responses and there were plenty of those at the time he made the video. He just cherry picked what he wanted to show.

 

Even Schwaanz "non-answers" do answer the overall concern of whether there will be enough glue. The answer is "Yes, there will be enough glue". The question was whether TFP considered roof sizes of POI's when they decided to make the dew collector footprint 3x3 and the answer is "Yes, because the player can build their own building and so all POI's don't have to accomodate a 30 dew-collector farm. The game is fully destructable and buildable so a 30x30 dew farm is totally possible regardless of it not fitting on the roofs of many POIs that a player might want to choose as their base.

 

In my Cursed People joke I even included a winky to show I was only joking and yet the streamer ponders whether I actually was or if I was being intentionally insulting...haha. In that case, I had already explained at least once in a serious way that the perk boost would mitigate bad luck so that nobody should ever experience never finding a magazine or part they needed for the weapon they perked into. Also he didn't highlight the part of the questioning fan where they called themself a party-pooper and laughed which made me think that it would be okay to joke around with the guy since he wasn't really distraught and was able even poke fun at themselves. Of course, he didn't show those serious answers because....boring and outside the scope of his narrative.

 

Finally, in my "insult" about getting new friends, I stand by and double down on the idea that a lot of the fun you experience in the game in multiplayer has to do with the people you play with. If you have fun looting and want to loot but get yelled at by your teammates for doing it because they care more about maybe getting a blue pipe rifle to replace their green pipe rifle than about you having fun playing with them then, yeah, play with different people. That point comes across in the entire post. If had ONLY stated what he highlighted without anything else then I agree that would be an unkind thing to blurt out. But the guy shares publicly about how his friends are being unkind to him while they play the game together. Its fair game to point out to him that part of his problem with the game are the people he is playing with.

 

The information that answers all of those concerns is available and I continue to answer seriously and sincerely questions concerning the new system-- especially if the one asking is doing so politely and with an attitude of wanting to learn and understand. If I chew on people a bit who come with a toxic attitude and make wild and insulting speculations based on nothing substantial, I admit it isn't very professionally customer-service-like of me to do so but I've done it this way for going on six years now and I'll do it until the day I no longer moderate. If TFP has a problem with that they can easily make changes.

Well i agree with you. If i agree with someone this person is right. So dear YT creators. You can check how much i argue with Roland. So if i agree with him about something that mean that... 99% he is right about that stuff

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well i agree with you. If i agree with someone this person is right

So you agree with someone if you think he is right and you think he is right because you agree with him. Circular reasoning at it's best. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Roland]

Polish Approval is like Polish Sausage. Smoky and somewhat circular but welcome all the same.  

[beerfly]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

Also when you swim in it, it feels like molasses. In A21 swimming is silky smooth. 

How about zombie behaviour in the water, has anything changed ? 

[Roland]

17 minutes ago, beerfly said:

How about zombie behaviour in the water, has anything changed ? 

 

No.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

So you agree with someone if you think he is right and you think he is right because you agree with him. Circular reasoning at it's best. 

If for example : if Khaine is writing with Roland about technical stuff - and if both agree about something - this is 99% right because they know about that stuff

I argue about many things with Roland , Meganoth, Fox and more and more people here.  So If Roland saying that he is trying to be polite this mean... that's his is saying true. There is closed topic " This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers. " we were trying to explain 2 guys about stuff conected with 7dtd. But we coudn't . Or there was  "cheers" guy ( i think some of us remember him) but we coudn't either. Roland is his for many years. I'm here since 2020 - so if i'm tired to explain things to another "yt creator supporter".... this mean that Roland is much tired that me. But he is is contrucitve if  someone want talk  constructive about something not "patterns, rust have biger MP, rework game, TFP should give back money" etc. because there is nothing constructive here usualy just emotional talk not arguments.

 

So if i say that he is right about writing with people that mean... his is right about that thing. 

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Polish Approval is like Polish Sausage. Smoky and somewhat circular but welcome all the same.  

 

Good polish Sausage 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

7 hours ago, Matt115 said:

If for example : if Khaine is writing with Roland about technical stuff - and if both agree about something - this is 99% right because they know about that stuff

I argue about many things with Roland , Meganoth, Fox and more and more people here.  So If Roland saying that he is trying to be polite this mean... that's his is saying true. There is closed topic " This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers. " we were trying to explain 2 guys about stuff conected with 7dtd. But we coudn't . Or there was  "cheers" guy ( i think some of us remember him) but we coudn't either. Roland is his for many years. I'm here since 2020 - so if i'm tired to explain things to another "yt creator supporter".... this mean that Roland is much tired that me. But he is is contrucitve if  someone want talk  constructive about something not "patterns, rust have biger MP, rework game, TFP should give back money" etc. because there is nothing constructive here usualy just emotional talk not arguments.

 

So if i say that he is right about writing with people that mean... his is right about that thing. 

My comment was about the nature of your reasoning. Not about if Roland is right or not. If you agree with someone then that does not necessarily mean that he is right but only that you are of the same opinion as he. But you could be just as wrong as he is.

 

Let's take an example. Someone claims 1+1 = 3 and another person agrees with him. Does that mean that 1+1 are really 3 or that both are simply wrong?
 

As for the changes, they have already been discussed in detail. Perhaps two more suggestions for improving on the water changes.

 

Based on the screenshots, we can assume that the dew collector has only 3 output slots, each containing a jar of water. This means that you have to empty them daily. If a dew collector could hold e.g. 9 or 12 glasses of water you would not have to empty them daily.

 

The second suggestion for improvement is the size. The size of the model cannot be changed, but the space could be used more efficiently if the dew collector could be improved. Either through mods or through an upgrade system. So he could collect e.g. 6 or 9 glasses per day and you would save space.

 

 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My comment was about the nature of your reasoning. Not about if Roland is right or not. If you agree with someone then that does not necessarily mean that he is right but only that you are of the same opinion as he. But you could be just as wrong as he is.

 

Let's take an example. Someone claims 1+1 = 3 and another person agrees with him. Does that mean that 1+1 are really 3 or that both are simply wrong?

 

If we assume random statements and both try to answer to their best knowledge and his claim was just that the probability is higher (not exactly 99%), then he is actually correct. Because a statement that is easier and simpler to evaluate will increase the chance that both judge it correctly and therefore the same.

 

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

As for the changes, they have already been discussed in detail. Perhaps two more suggestions for improving on the water changes.

 

Based on the screenshots, we can assume that the dew collector has only 3 output slots, each containing a jar of water. This means that you have to empty them daily. If a dew collector could hold e.g. 9 or 12 glasses of water you would not have to empty them daily.

 

Was there a screenshot of the dew collector UI? Anyway, a single slot that makes use of fact that water bottles are stacking would be slightly less immersive but allow almost unlimited production increases for modding.

 

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

The second suggestion for improvement is the size. The size of the model cannot be changed, but the space could be used more efficiently if the dew collector could be improved. Either through mods or through an upgrade system. So he could collect e.g. 6 or 9 glasses per day and you would save space.

 

 

 

This is a luxury complaint that in my opinion should be ignored by TFP completely. Once there was a time where you put your farm somewhere on the ground around your base and even had to protect it from zombies who might accidentally destroy them (A15). And that was good because you needed to think about the placement of your farm.

 

Now there is a chance that at least players who want a big dew farm and want 100% safety for it have to do the same. Good. Excellent. Carry on.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Was there a screenshot of the dew collector UI? Anyway, a single slot that makes use of fact that water bottles are stacking would be slightly less immersive but allow almost unlimited production increases for mod.

 

Faatal posted a screenshot of the UI.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Matt115]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My comment was about the nature of your reasoning. Not about if Roland is right or not. If you agree with someone then that does not necessarily mean that he is right but only that you are of the same opinion as he. But you could be just as wrong as he is.

 

Let's take an example. Someone claims 1+1 = 3 and another person agrees with him. Does that mean that 1+1 are really 3 or that both are simply wrong?
 

As for the changes, they have already been discussed in detail. Perhaps two more suggestions for improving on the water changes.

 

Based on the screenshots, we can assume that the dew collector has only 3 output slots, each containing a jar of water. This means that you have to empty them daily. If a dew collector could hold e.g. 9 or 12 glasses of water you would not have to empty them daily.

 

The second suggestion for improvement is the size. The size of the model cannot be changed, but the space could be used more efficiently if the dew collector could be improved. Either through mods or through an upgrade system. So he could collect e.g. 6 or 9 glasses per day and you would save space.

 

 

 

1+1 = 3 is not good example.

Okay let's say that you have Bob Tom and Kevin. They are truckers. Tom and bob are drivers many years. Kevin want to travel to city X because he never was there. If Bob and Tom usually argue which road is the best to drive somewhere but both agree that road 34 is the best if you want to drive to city X that's mean... this is probably the best road

 

Yep empty them daily. So solution is.....  make more dew collectors. This mean bigger base more upgrades of wall etc. But this mean typical player will spend more time to get food and water indepence from looting.  So this will make early/mid gamestage longer. I know better thing would be dunno... 50  more types of zombies, swamps,more guns, npc etc. but this can be add in sequel. Mount and blade was pretty empty if you compire with mount and blade warband or bannerlord

Edited October 24, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

3 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

1+1 = 3 is not good example.

Okay let's say that you have Bob Tom and Kevin. They are truckers. Tom and bob are drivers many years. Kevin want to travel to city X because he never was there. If Bob and Tom usually argue which road is the best to drive somewhere but both agree that road 34 is the best if you want to drive to city X that's mean... this is probably the best road

It is the best road in their opinion but just because they say it doesn't mean it really is. Maybe there is another road that is better that they don't know about because it was built recently, for example. Just because several people agree on something doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

 

30 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yep empty them daily. So solution is.....  make more dew collectors.

I had rather the players in mind who like to spend several days away from their base to explore and loot.

 

Personally, the daily emptying doesn't really bother me because I'm in my base regularly anyway and I don't explore much either. And I'm going to build at least 6 dew collectors anyway to cover my glue and duct tape needs.

[BFT2020]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:01 PM, Pernicious said:

 

Did they ever fix the bug where if the zombie died from bleeding rather than a direct hit, you got no XP? 

 

My first playthrough, I preferred knives, when I noticed I wasn't getting XP, I swapped to sledge hammer for crowd control and never checked back.

 

Yes, as long as  the last damage applied was because of the bleeding effect (at least it seems to work fine when I play with knives).  I have noticed that if they die because of a spike trap, then the game didn't give me the XP even though I did all the work up to that point.  At most, those cases seem to be few instances.

 

At least that has been my experience with A20 so far.

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It is the best road in their opinion but just because they say it doesn't mean it really is. Maybe there is another road that is better that they don't know about because it was built recently, for example. Just because several people agree on something doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

Well if serveral people agree about something this is probably  true.  If 10 truckers advice you to use road X - they are probably right. Ofc you can check every possible road but... this a little bit  pointless. Roland have 12,9 k post - from my experience his post are polite if you compare to  for example " this is pattern" guys. Did i know all 12,9 post of roland and context ?? no  but i know many enough to know that Roland posts are fine.

 

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

 

I had rather the players in mind who like to spend several days away from their base to explore and loot.

 

Personally, the daily emptying doesn't really bother me because I'm in my base regularly anyway and I don't explore much either. And I'm going to build at least 6 dew collectors anyway to cover my glue and duct tape needs.

 

So ... if they want to spend serval days - they can to prepair  before go somewhere for such long time.  Plus probably they will have to came back to left loot in storage so anyway they have to came back pretty soon. So if they can't just with empty eq go somewhere is .... just their own problem. in valheim it's good to have better quality food before go far away so they can take with them water in 7dtd 

[Kyram]

On 10/23/2022 at 1:52 PM, JCrook1028 said:

What's wrong with water? D1 and you never even once have to be concerned about your water supply, That's what is wrong with it now.

Ok lower the amount of water in loot sure but completely rework it that's over kill.

[Uncle Al]

1 hour ago, Kyram said:

Ok lower the amount of water in loot sure but completely rework it that's over kill.

Water in loot isn't really the current issue, it's that you can regenerate water infinitely with a campfire.  Something had to happen to break the 'empty jar + body of water + campfire = drinkable water' paradigm.  Visualise how trivial food would be if eating anything left a dirty plate behind and heating dirty plates in a fire made food...

 

Sure there's other ways they could have done it, mostly revolving around different purification methods and different grades of water cleanliness, but some kind of rework was needed if water scarcity was going to be an actual gameplay driver beyond day one.

 

 

 

 

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Uncle Al said:

Water in loot isn't really the current issue, it's that you can regenerate water infinitely with a campfire.  Something had to happen to break the 'empty jar + body of water + campfire = drinkable water' paradigm.  Visualise how trivial food would be if eating anything left a dirty plate behind and heating dirty plates in a fire made food.

 

But you cannot regenerate water infinitely with a campfire. Boiling an empty container, or cooking an empty plate, accomplishes nothing. You need a water source. But I take your point. This game... being set on Earth... water full of bacteria and harmful minerals is really common, effectively infinite.

 

I completely understand how making water scarce makes it more of a survival game. That approach seems apropos if maps were entirely desert wilderness or the game were set on Mars. Cities, however, are built near water sources.

 

1 hour ago, Uncle Al said:

Sure there's other ways they could have done it, mostly revolving around different purification methods and different grades of water cleanliness, but some kind of rework was needed if water scarcity was going to be an actual gameplay driver beyond day one.

 

And I'm curious to see how it turns out. Roland's reports from playtest suggest early game scarcity was achieved. I might misunderstand his characterizations of late game, but it sounds like the Rainwater Collector / Solar Still thingy is common enough (over time) that a player can be mass producing water. Maybe the constant drain on Dukes to buy more filters (to expand capacity) significantly draws out mid-level play. If so, hurrah!

 

My only criticism is that I think the real-world provides a buffet of water-related complications that I personally would find more inspiring and I think would achieve the same effect. If that's left to mods to toy with then that's probably okay.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, zztong said:

 

But you cannot regenerate water infinitely with a campfire. Boiling an empty container, or cooking an empty plate, accomplishes nothing. You need a water source. But I take your point. This game... being set on Earth... water full of bacteria and harmful minerals is really common, effectively infinite.

 

I completely understand how making water scarce makes it more of a survival game. That approach seems apropos if maps were entirely desert wilderness or the game were set on Mars. Cities, however, are built near water sources.

 

 

And I'm curious to see how it turns out. Roland's reports from playtest suggest early game scarcity was achieved. I might misunderstand his characterizations of late game, but it sounds like the Rainwater Collector / Solar Still thingy is common enough (over time) that a player can be mass producing water. Maybe the constant drain on Dukes to buy more filters (to expand capacity) significantly draws out mid-level play. If so, hurrah!

 

Roland said they cost 1500 currently. That is about the cost of a mod or a book. Hardly the expense to draw out gameplay.

 

5 hours ago, zztong said:

 

My only criticism is that I think the real-world provides a buffet of water-related complications that I personally would find more inspiring and I think would achieve the same effect. If that's left to mods to toy with then that's probably okay.

 

[Roland]

8 hours ago, zztong said:

My only criticism is that I think the real-world provides a buffet of water-related complications that I personally would find more inspiring and I think would achieve the same effect. If that's left to mods to toy with then that's probably okay.

 

I think anything that makes the game more of a sim in a particular area is usually best left to mods. Most of the people that I read who are unhappy with the base game and who love to use mods, do so because they love the detail and complexity and immersion in particular areas that they like. But not everyone craves that level of detail or complexity for the same features in the game. Some people just want the result and are happy if it only takes 1-2 steps or tasks to gain that result and would become quickly fatigued with the gameplay if they had to take 5-6 steps to gain the result they want. Some people can't stand to play the game if the weapons are not perfect representations of real world guns that they are intimately familiar with while others only care that when they push the button and aim a bullet goes where they want.

 

For every player who can't get enough of an overhaul mod that provides more real world complications and detailed multi-step objectives there is another who uninstalls the mod because it was "too much".

 

People who are happy with vanilla probably align pretty closely with the developers' own sensibilities on what aspects of the game to go deep and which to keep shallow whereas those who are unhappy are misaligned with the devs. Where the devs want it streamlined and abstract, they want it detailed and realistic. Where the devs are more on the arcade side of the spectrum they are more on the sim side of the spectrum and vice versa.

 

As far as the water and crafting changes go, once you get used to them they really don't seem as radical as it must seem like to people who can only read about them. I keep hearing people talk about the water change and crafting change as "another complete rework" but it really doesn't feel like something completely new. When I find a Forge Ahead magazine it actually feels a bit nostalgic. It will be interesting to see whether people who have been hating on the idea of these changes come around to actually liking them before the modders can manage to erase them from their consciousness. Of course, some are still bound to hate them after giving them an honest playthough.

 

What I am really interested in seeing is whether people who play without jars and get used to the early water survival mechanic and think they hate it, go back to playing with jars once a mod exists to do so only to realize that it practically feels like playing with the creative menu activated by comparison and also come to hate getting them in all their loot. When I watch people play A20 and I see jar after jar going into their inventory instead of the stuff I am finding I'm so glad they are gone. Then again, maybe in that area of the game all they really want are the stacks of easily obtainable water and don't like the process of acquiring them.

 

With the crafting change, the divide is going to people who want deterministic gameplay. These folks would revert back to A20 and breathe a sigh of relief once again having full control over what crafting recipes they can learn and when. The "making do with what you have instead of what you want" isn't for everyone and no matter how much bad luck mitigation is built into the code, the pace will not be fast enough for some people to learn the higher tier recipes they want.

 

Development is so interesting to experience.

[JCrook1028]

23 hours ago, Kyram said:

Ok lower the amount of water in loot sure but completely rework it that's over kill.

Water in loot is not the issue.... processing it effortlessly and endlessly from D1 is.

[AmishMan53]

On 10/23/2022 at 11:33 AM, meganoth said:

 

 

Yes. Found that spot. While he correctly shows that the Fun Pimps don't answer every concerned guy totally serious (especially if the concerned guy is already rushing to conclusions (IMHO)) he also blows up the case. He literally says the Fun Pimps have insulted players but shows no evidence of that (at least none I could find). I have only seen mild mocking by Roland and short answers by Schwanz9000 that do not really answer the question.

 

This sensationalizing many youtube influencers do is radicalizing people for monetary gain.

I haven't watched the video completely, does he ever present the two sides of the coin somewhere? The irony is that people thought youtubers would revolutionize journalism, but the mass of them seems actually to be a mockery of journalism now.

 

 

When people are unhappy with you and you mock them.. that's insulting.. whether intended or not.  

 

is met with

 

 

How is telling a person "you need new friends" not an insult/insulting.. and the response does absolutely ignore this persons concerns. 

 

I'm with Roland on the camaraderie thing, but people are different and have different playstyles.  For the guy who wants to toss 100 explosive arrows/bolts every horde night, where Roland said something along the lines of "i've been using a melee build and having a blast".. i would say a more appropriate response would be:

 

"sorry, we've had some oversights along the way and want to put more focus on the survival aspects and, right now, water is far too easy to come by.  This does in turn make glue rougher to come by too, and while i feel the new alpha still gives glue plenty, it may not fully support an all explosive focused build.  I would encourage you to try the alpha when it's released and see how it does for you, and we would love to hear your feedback at that time.  Maybe in the future more re-balancing can occur to maintain this survival focus and still keep a wide variety of playstyles supported.  In the meantime, we actively support the modding community, and surely their will be a mod out their that'll help with glue being too rare for your tastes.  "

 

Apologizes and places self-blame immediately, but reinforces TFP stance on what the goal truly is with the game.  Provides mutual concern for the players playstyle potentially having to change but encourages continued play into the new alpha and further hints at the possibility that, with things always changing from alpha to alpha, a return to glue-happy builds could be a thing.  

 

Players don't want to be told how to play your game, especially when the game is a sandbox.  Not everyone who has issues with the game are going to come to the forums and announce it.  I believe that this "growing sentiment" that Saven titled his video does exist, cuz it does seem very much so that the players concerns are irrelevant in the direction the game is going.  If feedback about the game diminishes, and people who hop in to give feedback don't return with further feedback, it could be proof of this growing sentiment.  Then again.. it could be that people don't simply play one game all the time for 10 years.  It could be a number of factors i can't list out, but at the very least i can say that the general response to feedback, criticism, and complaints seemingly to be "deal with it" doesn't really help.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

 

When people are unhappy with you and you mock them.. that's insulting.. whether intended or not.  

 

"mocking" is not "insulting". Notice that one word starts with an m and the other with an i. And then they continue to differ.

 

I did mock you here. I did not insult you. If you search for "synonym mock" or search for "synonym insult" you won't find the other word listed. This is again an attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. Are you a youtuber by chance? 😉

 

(Sorry, no time for an extended reply)

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[AmishMan53]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

"mocking" is not "insulting". Notice that one word starts with an m and the other with an i. And then they continue to differ.

 

I did mock you here. I did not insult you. If you search for "synonym mock" or search for "synonym insult" you won't find the other word listed. This is again an attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. Are you a youtuber by chance? 😉

 

(Sorry, no time for an extended reply)

 

 

 

 

Edit:  Since that's wikipedia.. thought i'd give a couple more.

 

 

 

Sources: https://thesaurus.yourdictionary.com/mocking, https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-thesaurus/mock

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by AmishMan53 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

@AmishMan53: I think Roland's response was on point on that topic. Everyone can understand when people in a group are not behaving in a "teamly" manner.  It's like playing soccer or basketball with your friends and never being given the ball at all during the game... what would you think?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)