20.4 new mod folder location

[KhaineGB]

44 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Stating the obvious: The most simple solution for TFP going forward would be to just NOT make the future switch to only read from one location, i.e. stop right at the change implemented in A20.4.

 

Now Khaine proposed the change may have been neccessary to get into the xbox store (and therefore is a requirement by Microsoft).  Does anyone know if this again might be a requirement for crossplay with a future xbox console version?

 

 

 

 

I've wondered this myself. It'd make sense.

Though tbh i'd still leave both locations as "available" as the /Mods folder in the game dir is better for epic/steam users.

[meganoth]

9 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

I've wondered this myself. It'd make sense.

Though tbh i'd still leave both locations as "available" as the /Mods folder in the game dir is better for epic/steam users.

 

Microsofts rule might as easily say that games should look into another location OR say that it shall not look into the program folder.

 

Are there crossplay games in the xbox store that look for mods inside their program folder? If yes the "shall not" rule could be ruled out.

 

[KhaineGB]

I don't know of any.

But then the actual game directory for MS Store games is SUPER locked down. I know the dead by daylight community have been complaining about that because they can't use perk icon mods.

[Kahrston]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the discussion. I play 7 days with several different groups of people. Some of those are streamers on Twitch and every game with these people is configured with different mods. I really hope that this new Mod folder location isn't the only location going forward as some of the people I play with aren't very computer savvy. Modding from the community has drastically increased the game play lifespan of 7 Days and anything that would make mods more difficult to make and/or use could take away from that.

 

Again, TFP please do not make the new Mod folder location the only one.

 

Thanks

[doughphunghus]

It would be nice if inside the Mods folder there was another level of folders representing “your game” so when you start a game you choose the Mods sub folder to use (if mods are loaded, meaning “I’m modding, so I choose this sub folder my mods are in”. Then the save game remembers that folder, so subsequent launches it just uses it.

of course, not all modded games are just things only in the mods folder, but it would go a long way towards being able to swap between saved games with different mods (as the mods you use for a game remain in the folder, so your modded save game remembers it, and if you want you can make more save games and just choose that same sub folder.  
 

“Call the sub folder whatever you like” is probably a decent way of doing it, instead of trying to generate or link a folder name to the saved game settings (like auto generate it based on map seed or something)

another benefit of this is you can have/keep those sub folders around “forever” so if you have an old save game the mods for it are still “there and available” if you haven’t deleted the sub folder. This would likely give reason to name these sub folders something meaningful, but if not the sub folder name/path would atill be visible when you choose the save game to launch (as a setting, before you launch it)

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

I called it

 

[Boidster]

 

 

Is this going to be some streaming-only thing where it's really the PC game sent to the console? Or is this the old A15-ish console version making a comeback in GamePass? Or is this...is this...I can't say it I might jinx it.

[BFT2020]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:07 PM, SylenThunder said:

SUCCESS!!

 

Ok so I tested it, and it worked perfectly. Unfortunately it is again something that some people will not be able to accomplish. (Khaine isn't kidding about people incapable of simply copying files out of a zip into the mod folder. I spent a few hours the other day with someone on the exact same thing.)

 

This is actually an universal issue, not just a computer issue.  I have had engineers call me up to say I need to come and fix a piece of equipment is not powering up, and the first thing I always ask is..."Is the equipment plugged in?"  🤔

 

I have fixed a lot of equipment issues right away by asking that question first.

 

 

[ZamiZ]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:59 AM, KhaineGB said:

1) The reason provided by TFP, while I understand it, seems unreasonable when Rimworld loads from the Mods folder even to this day. It works fine. So why change it?
2) For those of us who recommend the use of Manual Install rather than automated applications (Sorry Sphereii!), this is going to make it a lot more difficult for... less technically inclined users to actually install mods, which could be bad for the health of the game, the health of mods and may discourage people from modding in the future.

 

To agree with everything said here I add my own thoughts. I would first like to preface this with that I have been doing some kind of tech troubleshooting for years for family and for a couple years professionally at a call center. The amount of times I had to walk some through for 15+ minutes on just where and how to download and install something, or find a setting, is more numerous to count.

 

I have been playing the game with mods for a couple years now. It is honestly the only reason why I have continued playing for so long and still enjoy the game. I manually install all my mods, making sure to make copies of the game for each set of installs so that I can play with different people all using different mod sets.

 

While I understand putting everything in appdata for security reasons, it is also a big hassle for the average user. Modding minecraft was a hassle for that exact reason, and even my tech savvy hubby got tripped up by it more than once. I still have to go look it up if I'm not actively playing simply because I forget it installs everything to appdata. On top of that, when we rebuilt our computers this year we purposefully put Windows on the smaller ssd drives and moved all our documents, pictures, and games to other larger ssds and nvme drives. Moving all mod loads to appdata will undo all that for us. For context, I run a 120G ssd for my Windows drive. I have 18G (no that isn't a typo) free on that drive right now. Some of the mods require 4+ Gigs of space. That would limit me to 1 mod at a time right now, which would really suck for me. I don't play that way.

 

This isn't like Documents or Pictures that we can tell Windows to move to another drive. We can do symlinks to another drive, but it doesn't work well. I tried it. Half my programs immediately failed to load and I had to move the entire appdata back to the C drive. So moving the appdata is not an option.

 

To top it off, many "mods" are actually mods packs. They are comprised of multiple "mods" all packaged together, as defined by the game. (Maybe for organization by the mod creator, maybe because some are other mods used with permission.) So even with a built in mod loader, it would be a nightmare to have to select and deselect the mods each and every single time AND try to remember which ones go with which game.  What if one mod pack uses one version and another mod pack uses another version? Are the mod creators now going to have start labeling each of their mod files ModName-Folder1, ModName-Folder2?

Is there going to have to be a verification system installed in the game so that you cannot connect to a server if you are not loading in the exact mods AND mod version as server?

 

For singleplayer, if you choose the wrong mods due to confusion on which mods were with which game, you could potentially royally screw up your save game.

 

So for the majority of users, it really is simpler to make a copy of the game and install the mods there.

 

So for the TLDR: To agree with the others, just let those of us that already load mods in the game folder continue to load them in the game folder. Don't force the change later down the road. It will cause more headaches than it is worth I think.

[Gamida]

Ok this mods folder thing had me worried so I figured the easiest thing I could do to figure it out was build a time machine and go to the future to see what was going on with it.

Time travel is wonky so I can't recall exactly what year it was but I did manage to get a screen shot of an addition to the game. I think they may still be working on it so can't guarantee

this is going to be in final game or if it gets completely scrapped. It does give me hope I can still add multiple mods.

 

 

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, Gamida said:

Ok this mods folder thing had me worried so I figured the easiest thing I could do to figure it out was build a time machine and go to the future to see what was going on with it.

Time travel is wonky so I can't recall exactly what year it was but I did manage to get a screen shot of an addition to the game. I think they may still be working on it so can't guarantee

this is going to be in final game or if it gets completely scrapped. It does give me hope I can still add multiple mods.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Isn't that... cheating?  Or is this an example of "all's fair in love, war, and time travel"?

[Brugas]

Just throwing my 2 cents on the fire atm... This was a huge dump on the community.  Not sure who all was involved but The Fun Pimps definitely should've known better. 
The very least you could do was announce these planned changes for mods so that everyone could expect it, take precautions and be ready for it. 
While I love vanilla and the things the team has done for the games over the years... I love the mods a hell of a lot.

This was unnecessary. 

You could also allow, through the options in game, choose which mod folder to load and offset some of this hassle.... as well as screenshots. As many have pointed out, it's very annoying.

As it is, it's like surprise anal sex from The Fun Pimps... and as humorous as it may sound, it truly sucks for the community, especially if you use mods. I feel for the modders who have to, not only change things up, but explain it again and again.  Mods are helping to keep this game alive.  I've seen plenty of this community pouring their souls into this game since Alpha 4. Maybe some had an inkling of what was going on, but it sure doesn't look like it by the posts.  This should have been announced WELL in advance...  This is a huge dropping of the ball and you shouldn't do that to your community. Totally unnecessary. You should be making it easier for the player base and modders... not harder.

This needs to be rethought and referenced for any other changes going forward, especially ones that affect a large portion of the player base. 

That being said, I've always been an ardent supporter and defender of the game.  I cannot defend this.
 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Brugas (see edit history)

[Roland]

27 minutes ago, Brugas said:

This was a huge dump on the community.  Not sure who all was involved but The Fun Pimps definitely should've known better. 
The very least you could do was announce these planned changes for mods so that everyone could expect it, take precautions and be ready for it.

What do you call introducing it as they did where modders can choose to use either location and telling them that in the future the old way will be phased out?  
 

Announced planned changes. Check. 
Allow a period of time where it isn’t forced so that modders can expect it, take precautions, and be ready for it. Check. 
 

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with what they have chosen to do but just from the way they announced it and are giving everyone a grace period to acclimate to it makes your statement sound pretty ignorant.
 

27 minutes ago, Brugas said:

As it is, it's like surprise anal sex from The Fun Pimps...

I think you’ve been waiting awhile to use that line and so even though it doesn’t fit the situation at all you just threw it in to stop your  itch…

 

I hope that the change will be weathered and not be too much of a disruption. People who assume that the change is coming because TFP is antagonistic towards the modding community are way off base. 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

People seem to ignore the line in that change that says for now the Mods folder still works. By the time that is phased out there could be any number of features added that solve the current complaints. But noooo, go get your pitchforks and make yourself look dumb instead.

[Brugas]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

What do you call introducing it as they did where modders can choose to use either location and telling them that in the future the old way will be phased out?  
 

Announced planned changes. Check. 
Allow a period of time where it isn’t forced so that modders can expect it, take precautions, and be ready for it. Check. 
 

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with what they have chosen to do but just from the way they announced it and are giving everyone a grace period to acclimate to it makes your statement sound pretty ignorant.
 

 

Really? Where? Maybe there is a back channel? Definitely didn't see it on the regular updates and announcements or before it happened.
Kindly direct me to it if you can and then review whether its something that would be seen by most people or... just a back channel.

 

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think you’ve been waiting awhile to use that line and so even though it doesn’t fit the situation at all you just threw it in to stop your  itch…

 

I hope that the change will be weathered and not be too much of a disruption. People who assume that the change is coming because TFP is antagonistic towards the modding community are way off base. 

 

Sorry bud, but I don't have to save such things... it's called wit and can be done on the fly, lol.
As far as what's been done for the modding community... I hardly see it otherwise. Been seeing this kind of thing for decades and to see it still being done, especially to this group, definitely rubs me the wrong way.  I know it's your job to defend, and I can respect that, but I don't see an excuse for this. If you have a good one, I would like to hear it.

[NekoPawtato]

47 minutes ago, Brugas said:

Really? Where? Maybe there is a back channel? Definitely didn't see it on the regular updates and announcements or before it happened.
Kindly direct me to it if you can and then review whether its something that would be seen by most people or... just a back channel.

 

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something but according to the A20.4 release notes: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28529-alpha-204-stable/

 

Quote

Mods are now loaded from <UserDataFolder>/Mods (i.e. the folder that also stores saves, e.g. on Windows %APPDATA%/7DaysToDie/Mods) in addition to <game folder>/Mods. In a future build this will change to only load from that new location so no data is written/changed in the program folder at any time

 

I interpreted that as meaning both old and new locations currently work and in the future it will transition to only one place.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, NekoPawtato said:

I interpreted that as meaning both old and new locations currently work and in the future it will transition to only one place.

I guess somebody must help Brugas with his "transition" process now... 

[bdubyah]

2 hours ago, Brugas said:

Really? Where? Maybe there is a back channel? Definitely didn't see it on the regular updates and announcements or before it happened.
Kindly direct me to it if you can and then review whether its something that would be seen by most people or... just a back channel.

 

Sorry bud, but I don't have to save such things... it's called wit and can be done on the fly, lol.
As far as what's been done for the modding community... I hardly see it otherwise. Been seeing this kind of thing for decades and to see it still being done, especially to this group, definitely rubs me the wrong way.  I know it's your job to defend, and I can respect that, but I don't see an excuse for this. If you have a good one, I would like to hear it.

Not sure why you think Roland owes you anything.

20.4 has been in EXP for a couple weeks. First release mentioned it. This thread is proof of that. And again, this change isn't required right now. So no idea why you're so upset about it. If the devs weren't aware of the mod swapping issue this seems to create(which I'd think they were), they are now. So by the time the Mods folder is deprecated, there will very likely be a good alternative in place. While some things TFP do seem strange to us sometimes, they are almost always looking out for modders and their users. So I'll definitely hold off jumping the gun and blasting them till I see what comes next for this. Hell, it will likely be at least a21 before the Mods folder goes away. You people need to calm down. Lol.

[Survager]

One way or another, many mods are large, and not every player has enough space on the "C" drive to install large mods. What solution does Roland think could fix this in the future when all modifications need to be stored on the "C" drive?

[SylenThunder]

52 minutes ago, Survager said:

One way or another, many mods are large, and not every player has enough space on the "C" drive to install large mods. What solution does Roland think could fix this in the future when all modifications need to be stored on the "C" drive?

A solution has already been posted in this very thread.

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, Survager said:

One way or another, many mods are large, and not every player has enough space on the "C" drive to install large mods. What solution does Roland think could fix this in the future when all modifications need to be stored on the "C" drive?

 

Guess it´s pretty easy to get out of touch with what the playerbase has as hardware when your job requires you to have a PC way above average. That´s not an excuse, a good dev shuold be aware if a change will effect people in a negative way if they have an average PC.

 

But hey, beeing in MS store is more importnant than that from a business standpoint. I heavily doubt that they are going to sell a lot more because of that, the game has been in EA very long and i doubt that there will be huge sales after releasing. No matter if they are in the MS store or not. People who like games like this already have bought it imo.

 

Just gonna be interesting how many people will not buy early access anymore with the next title if they know that they could be royally screwed over after years of playing.

 

@SylenThunder Wich one? Doing shortcuts? That´s not a solution. That´s a workaround. A @%$#ty one that renders the advantages of steam workshop useless for people with small C drives (wich many people have nowadays). You guys missed the part, where a lot of people confirmed that even finding appdata is a struggle for many people.

Edited April 26, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Sellsents]

2 hours ago, bdubyah said:

While some things TFP do seem strange to us sometimes, they are almost always looking out for modders and their users. So I'll definitely hold off jumping the gun and blasting them till I see what comes next for this. Hell, it will likely be at least a21 before the Mods folder goes away. You people need to calm down. Lol.

No, we do not need to calm down. We need to bring this to their attention now so they hopefully rethink their decision before the whole thing goes further and say at the end: hey, if you weren´t pleased with our decision back then why didn´t you spoke up? Now its too late to change things back."

 

I do not say they do not care about their modders or anything like that, because I personally have not enough indept knowledge about how the whole moding stuff works in detail. I can change little things for myself, like editing some xml files but thats it. And I am fine with it. But I appreciate every modders work, the time that is spend to create them and the creativity and knowlegde behind every single one of them. I appreciate every player who is playing this game because without them, this game would be dead in a minute. And therefore I say: do not make it harder on people. No matter if you are a modder or if you are just a regular user. Because there are enough people out there already who have problems creating mods or installing them properly. Why make life for those people harder without having a good explainable reason? And there even might be a good reason behind all of it, I don´t know. But so far its hasn´t communicated well to us why this change is neccessary.

 

I go by the motto do not fix what is not broken. I do not want to spent my time fiddeling around with mods to make them work somehow and then try to explain it to my friends for 2h so we can play for one. Its not gonna work that way.

[KhaineGB]

I still maintain that the DOCUMENTS folder is a better location for logs/saves/mods

So like C:\Users\<username>\Documents (I think that's the default on windows).

Why? Easier to access for the end user. WAY easier.

Platform agnostic. It works on Windows, Linux and MacOS with System.Environment.GetFolderPath(System.Environment.SpecialFolder.MyDocuments).

Windows users can EASILY change the location of their documents folder. I have mine on my D drive, for example. I assume Linux and MacOS can do the same but I'm not experienced enough with those OS'es to comment.

I understand this change is coming because of the MS Store version that doesn't allow access to the game folder, but if we HAD TO only have 1 mods folder? That location would be my suggestion for the reasons outlined.

Personally I'd leave both locations in. That way you maintain windows store compatibility for those users, and the old location for Steam/Epic users that want multiple game versions and multiple mods easily.

Edited April 26, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Survager]

50 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

A solution has already been posted in this very thread.

Is this solution suggested by the developers? I didn't find anything similar, maybe I didn't read it carefully.

[ZamiZ]

A solution is NOT a solution if it isn't something a person with little computer smarts can do. Workarounds such as symlinks are clunky at best, do not work at worst. You cannot assume that it won't break something else on that person's computer. Unless you are getting paid to work on their computer as a repair to verify everything works. 

For a solution, you have to think of the users that are:

1. Not tech savvy.
     Can do point and click, find their documents and browser, find the game, but do nothing else. They take their computer to a computer store because it is running slow because their drive is full and they never cleared their cache and downloads for years because they didn't know how or that they had to type of people.

2. Want to play different mods.
     Sometimes they want to play one set of mods in the morning with one group of friends then a different set of mods in the evening with a different group of friends.

The best solution will be TFP will have to have a launcher that will do all this with only minimal work from the user. I hate to reference Minecraft again, but at least it's mods are packed in zip files. So the mods are easily recognizable from one another for the user regardless of how many folders there are inside of it. In it's current state, TFP have a LOOOONG way to go to get a mod loader that will be usable for the average user going down this route. THAT is my key point. Right now what we have is clunky, but we can get the job done. Forcing it into %appdata% without a ton of work on their end to make a mod loader, the ability to have game profiles to play different mod packs, mod version verification between server and client in instances it is needed, and everything else that goes with it before they force us into this WILL force many of us that play with multiple mods to leave the game.

Edited April 26, 2022 by ZamiZ (see edit history)