20.4 new mod folder location

[Catdaddy]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with what they have chosen to do but just from the way they announced it and are giving everyone a grace period to acclimate to it makes your statement sound pretty ignorant.

 

Without knowledge of the big picture, how well can one be expected to acclimate?

 

Just share a more complete overview of how the system will work going forward.

 

How do the devs anticipate that users will run multiple modded versions?

 

Is the workaround posted by SylenThunder intended to be a permanent solution? It does not seem very user-friendly at first glance. 

 

It seems that you all should have expected this type of reaction when the change was announced with such a limited explanation.

 

If Roland doesn't know enough to agree or disagree, how do you expect the rest of us to wrap our heads around it?

 

This controversy can be blamed on low information. We have been told just enough to give concern, but not enough to form a well-reasoned complaint. Bad PR, IMO.

 

My prediction is that once Steam Workshop is introduced, it will become the only way to mod without the extra steps explained in the "workaround" and, unless using that method, we will be limited to one modded version. This is the kind of speculation you will get when you leave folks wondering...

[Jost Amman]

46 minutes ago, Catdaddy said:

This controversy can be blamed on low information. We have been told just enough to give concern, but not enough to form a well-reasoned complaint.

Why does this sound so familiar? ... 

[KhaineGB]

1 hour ago, ZamiZ said:

1. Not tech savvy.
     Can do point and click, find their documents and browser, find the game, but do nothing else. They take their computer to a computer store because it is running slow because their drive is full and they never cleared their cache and downloads for years because they didn't know how or that they had to type of people.

Thanks for reminding me I need to clear out my cache and downloads.

[bdubyah]

5 hours ago, Sellsents said:

No, we do not need to calm down. We need to bring this to their attention now so they hopefully rethink their decision before the whole thing goes further and say at the end: hey, if you weren´t pleased with our decision back then why didn´t you spoke up? Now its too late to change things back."

 

I do not say they do not care about their modders or anything like that, because I personally have not enough indept knowledge about how the whole moding stuff works in detail. I can change little things for myself, like editing some xml files but thats it. And I am fine with it. But I appreciate every modders work, the time that is spend to create them and the creativity and knowlegde behind every single one of them. I appreciate every player who is playing this game because without them, this game would be dead in a minute. And therefore I say: do not make it harder on people. No matter if you are a modder or if you are just a regular user. Because there are enough people out there already who have problems creating mods or installing them properly. Why make life for those people harder without having a good explainable reason? And there even might be a good reason behind all of it, I don´t know. But so far its hasn´t communicated well to us why this change is neccessary.

 

I go by the motto do not fix what is not broken. I do not want to spent my time fiddeling around with mods to make them work somehow and then try to explain it to my friends for 2h so we can play for one. Its not gonna work that way.

Yeah, because throwing insults and generally acting like a child is always a good way to make a point. Right...

And all the complaints about making it more complicated being a problem, etc is assuming nothing else will be done with it. There's a number of ways they could be going with this. Fact is, we don't know, so while voicing concerns is fine and good, acting like mindless idiots is not.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Catdaddy said:

Without knowledge of the big picture, how well can one be expected to acclimate?

You can acclimate to the new situation without understanding the big picture. Companies rarely spell out the big picture publicly until they are ready to roll everything out. Them telling us about a future change without giving us a "good reason" or "the whole plan" is exactly the way things are usually done. My point was that they have graciously given us time to get used to the change with an option to continue to use the old method until some future date when the new method will be the only option. Witty guy was complaining that TFP completely screwed everyone over with a surprise change. That didn't happen. They have given us a headsup. They have not revealed all the why's at this time, true, but a modder now has the option to start figuring out how to handle the change before it happens.

 

3 hours ago, Catdaddy said:

Just share a more complete overview of how the system will work going forward.

 

How do the devs anticipate that users will run multiple modded versions?

 

Is the workaround posted by SylenThunder intended to be a permanent solution? It does not seem very user-friendly at first glance. 

 

You have a right to complain about the lack of information and ask for more so no argument from me on that score. We will have to see whether TFP decides to explain the reasons behind their change.

 

4 hours ago, Catdaddy said:

It seems that you all should have expected this type of reaction when the change was announced with such a limited explanation.

 

We always expect some people will rage over any change. So, sure, the expectation was there. I was not expressing surprise-- or at least that wasn't what I meant to convey. I was expressing strong disapproval of someone falsely accusing the devs of surprising everyone with a sudden forced change that ruins modding and doing so in a vulgar and insulting manner. Period. The accusation was that the devs gave no warning and forced a horrible change on everyone. The truth was that we are being warned now about a future change and nobody is forced to adapt immediately. The full reasons haven't been explained although now a major reason has come out anyway.

 

4 hours ago, Catdaddy said:

If Roland doesn't know enough to agree or disagree, how do you expect the rest of us to wrap our heads around it?

 

Agree or disagree about the technical ramifications of the change. I've dabbled with modding but that doesn't mean I'm an expert on all of this. If I don't know enough to agree or disagree and am willing to be patient until more is known then why can't the rest of you? I like using mods and I like having multiple versions of 7 Days loaded at once so I have some worries but if a method emerges that makes it still possible then I'll follow directions to figure it out same as I did when I originally had no idea how to apply mods to this game and followed directions to figure it out. We don't know what TFP is going to do to support modding officially and how easy they will make it to apply mods in the future. People who are getting upset are assuming the worst possible outcomes and then getting mad like that is the truth.

 

4 hours ago, Catdaddy said:

This controversy can be blamed on low information. We have been told just enough to give concern, but not enough to form a well-reasoned complaint. Bad PR, IMO.

 

My prediction is that once Steam Workshop is introduced, it will become the only way to mod without the extra steps explained in the "workaround" and, unless using that method, we will be limited to one modded version. This is the kind of speculation you will get when you leave folks wondering...

 

Sure. Understood. We didn't spill all of our information to the public all at once and that leads to speculation. But the type of speculation that people make says more about them than it does about TFP. We know that TFP plans to officially support modding and we know that they are planning to change the location of where the mod folder is going to go. If you want to speculate doom and gloom that's on you. But it is self-inflicted pain. I haven't posted a single thing against any of the speculative wonderings on here. Some seem hopeful that things will turn out, some seem convinced the end of any meaningful modding is coming and I'm happy to let the whole spectrum of thought to be given voice.

 

But...posting that TFP has already forced this change as a surprise with no time to get ready and adapt and figure things out is blatantly wrong and THAT is what I entered the conversation to correct-- not to stop people from wondering what the future will hold.

[Sixx]

So I'm not sure if I understood that correctly.

My mods are now on Drive D Games/7D2D/Mods

and I have to look them up now

C:\Users\Idiot\AppData\Roaming\7DaysToDie

???
 

So on my Windows system disk? On which I don't really want to have something like that because it's NOT my game disc ?? So I'm now trash as my system disk? It's already annoying enough what's stored there. But I find that already hard on the limit that you have to put a mod directory there. Completely superfluous and idiotic
 

My mod directory is about 25GB in size. Should I then buy a larger Disc for this? Inflate my security backus artificially?

It's a shame that you make decisions based on the head of your users and sometimes even give cheeky and outrageous answers.
 

If so: Bye 7D2D.. there are enough other games that you can use and also experience significantly better further development..

[sphereii]

I am not concerned with this change. There's a few ways to solve it, Sylven already posted a good solution. I think you can even do a --userdatafolder right from the command line, rather than having a separate xml config. As for the ModLauncher, it will only require a minor change; most users won't even notice. 

 

It does improve things for certain modded players. The ModLauncher copies the game for each overhaul you are installing. However, the new way allows one game install with many mods running in it, saving a lot of disk space. I may even do a small open source app to stream line that, so the concern about the ModLauncher or its dev disappears completely is greatly reduced.

 

The ModLauncher will likely keep its one copy per mod going forward. Some people really like to keep older versions of the game. 

 

The ModLauncher was always just a gap solution for workshop. Nothing has changed with that stance, nor is it going away.

[KhaineGB]

I have ideas on how i'm gonna resolve it myself.

I just need to do some tweaks to my mod. Getting there.

[sphereii]

6 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

I have ideas on how i'm gonna resolve it myself.

I just need to do some tweaks to my mod. Getting there.

 

I know the change is a pain in the butt, but I think it does position us to be much closer to actual workshop support than we ever have been, and that should be pretty exciting to all the players and modders alike. Every alpha, we take a step forward that's a bit scary, but it is forward.

 

Imagine all modlets available in a central place, rather than spread out across multiple websites, forum posts, launchers, etc. It feels like we are getting close to that.

[KhaineGB]

14 minutes ago, sphereii said:

 

I know the change is a pain in the butt, but I think it does position us to be much closer to actual workshop support than we ever have been, and that should be pretty exciting to all the players and modders alike. Every alpha, we take a step forward that's a bit scary, but it is forward.

 

Imagine all modlets available in a central place, rather than spread out across multiple websites, forum posts, launchers, etc. It feels like we are getting close to that.

Sphereii, plz. You damn well know they're gonna be on multiple websites and posts anyway

[Roland]

The question I have now is this:

 

Does the change allow players who are on Game Pass the ability to experience mods which they couldn't have if things remained the same? If the answer is yes, then it is definitely worth the change so that more people can experience mods than ever before and shows that TFP is not at war against modding and modders at all and are simply taking a huge step toward broadening the audience of those who can play 7 Days to Die in modded form.

 

If the answer is no, then I guess I am back to wondering.

[pApA^LeGBa]

What if the change also does keep people who already play mods from playing mods once the change is fully done, because they can´t be bothered and/or aren´t able searching for hidden folders or simply can´t upgrade their C drive that is only a small ssd? But i guess the people that already paid aren´t as importnant as people that haven´t paid yet.

Edited April 26, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

51 minutes ago, Roland said:

The question I have now is this:

 

Does the change allow players who are on Game Pass the ability to experience mods which they couldn't have if things remained the same? If the answer is yes, then it is definitely worth the change so that more people can experience mods than ever before and shows that TFP is not at war against modding and modders at all and are simply taking a huge step toward broadening the audience of those who can play 7 Days to Die in modded form.

 

If the answer is no, then I guess I am back to wondering.

The answer is yes.

HOWEVER.

This change also makes it a lot HARDER to install mods (if not using the launcher) due to the strange choice of folder (and i've given my recommendation for one that would work for users, and for TFP, across all operating systems) AND makes it a lot harder for users to be able to run multiple mods AND vanilla if they so wish.

It also makes it much harder for modders to be able to have multiple versions to test/experiment with. There are workarounds (And modders should be expected to use them), but it's the end user experience that bothers me the most as this causes issues for both TFP and modders.

So we can't just say "Well if the answer is yes, then this is a good thing" without looking at the broader picture.

Edited April 26, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 minute ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

What if the change also does keep people from playing mods, because they can´t be bothered and or aren´t able searching for hidden folders or simply can´t be bothered upgrading their C drive because they only have a small ssd for it? But i guess the people that already paid aren´t as importnant as people that haven´t paid yet.

 

Maybe its good to have a competency filter on who plays mods... 

 

It is exactly the same as now. People complain that the current method of playing mods is too complicated for them and they will never play mods until the method is simplified. What you are saying about the complications of the new method is what countless others have been saying about the current method.

 

The truth is that those who really want to mod will learn what's needed in order to mod.

 

As for the C drive filling up, aren't the mod files predominantly text files? How much space are they going to be taking up? I haven't looked at the total drain on my disk space that a full overhaul mod imposes so I guess I will do that before commenting further about how detrimental this is going to be on our disk space. If its 100s of MB or more than a GB then I will concerned with that as well

5 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

So we can't just say "Well if the answer is yes, then this is a good thing" without looking at the broader picture.

 

Very true!

[KhaineGB]

Overhauls are a lot more than 100MB.

DF is about 4GB.

I'm not kidding.

[CyrusBlaze]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

As for the C drive filling up, aren't the mod files predominantly text files? How much space are they going to be taking up? I haven't looked at the total drain on my disk space that a full overhaul mod imposes so I guess I will do that before commenting further about how detrimental this is going to be on our disk space. If its 100s of MB or more than a GB then I will concerned with that as well

 

 

 

DF mod folder is 5.41GB  on my system (fresh install last night).  While that may be an outlier as it adds alot of assets there are plenty of other larger mods that can be quite alot.

 

That being said my last 'personal' mod set (combination of many modlets) the folder was only a handful of MB as it was text only.

 

We've seen that they can load mods form multiple locations.. why not keep it that way if appdata is truly 'needed' for some specific purpose (gamepass?) and leave it in the game dir for those who prefer it there or the mod loaders / multiple versions of the game without scripting / launcher variables to further complicate it.

 

appdata definitely isn't a requirement for steam workshop either (seen that mentioned) so not sure why that's a 'pro' for the appdata location. 

 

At the end of the day it'll be wherever TFP say it is.. and we'll just have to live with it.  But that doesn't make it make sense, or mean we cant voice our complaints/concerns (in a civilized manner) 

[KhaineGB]

Honestly, a lot of DF's size is maps.

But the assets folder (models, sounds, etc) is 2.5GB on it's own.

[grendelwolf]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

No problem for linux users, the location is in the home dir of the user. Normally that is just "beside" the default steam dir where all the games are stored.

 

But at the moment there are NO mod folder restrictions at all. There is just an additional location where mods are looked for. A modded game should run without any changes to the Mods folder.

 

 

[Roland]

5 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

DF is about 4GB.

 

5 hours ago, CyrusBlaze said:

DF mod folder is 5.41GB  on my system

 

Wow... 

[KhaineGB]

Yeah. RH and UL are similar in size.

That's why users are concerned about their C drive.

[SylenThunder]

If you run DF plus Sorcery, that's a bit over 8.6GB. In order to make a smaller download for our players I removed all the maps and such. That got it down to just over 4GB for the two combined.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Why am i not surprised that you are beeing condescending towards people who aren´t that tech savvy? Meh. Is it really in the interest of TFP to exclude people? I don´t think so. 

 

Time is an issue when it comes to gaming for many people. If you have 1 or 2 days every other week where you can spend a few hours gaming, you don´t wanna have to mess around a lot and even having to think about upgrading your PC so you can use mods. Even if you are able to handle all the problems. People play to relax and don´t want another problem that they need to solve.

 

Forcing this onto C does also render the advantage of the steam workshop useless that you just need to click on a mod to get it. Can´t do that if you need to do a workaround because your C drive is too small.

 

20.4 makes it really complicated overall. The mods becoming complicated. The server search forcing itself on to you instead of just beeing available once you are in the server list and simply rendering my history list useless and now having to pick up the IP´s from the servers i was on via steam history one by one. Server owners having to manually edit the serverconfig so that people can find it, even when the region and the language are correct in the settings already. Really feels a bit like TFP is trying to get rid of non tech savvy people.

Edited April 27, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland Why am i not surprised that you are beeing condescending towards people who aren´t that tech savvy?

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Really feels a bit like TFP is trying to get rid of non tech savvy people.

Because you can’t take a joke and you are apparently a conspiracy theorist…

 

You’re considering the worst case scenarios and then establishing those as reality.  I guess we will find out whether or not your fears are real. 
 

 

[grendelwolf]

Problem solved thanks to faatal! 

 

1 hour ago, faatal said:

We can't have it in the Mods folder for installing from the Microsoft store or Game Pass, because MS does not want users changing files in the install location.

 

We already allow you to specify a location on the command line for data files, which you could specify in the launcher. You can then place a Mods folder there.

-UserDataFolder=x:\7DTDData

 

It can also be set in the serverconfig.xml file.
<property name="UserDataFolder" value="absolute path" /> <!-- Use this to override where the server stores all generated data, including RWG generated worlds. Do not forget to uncomment the entry! -->

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You’re considering the worst case scenarios and then establishing those as reality.  I guess we will find out whether or not your fears are real. 
 

 

Considering the worst case scenario is the best option to avoid being disapointed. If you not expect that anything can change on good ,will just use to it

Edited April 27, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)