Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[pApA^LeGBa]

9 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

This is brilliant!

So you say, you and your guys just throw/fire lots of grenades and frag rockets at a demo, and then they don't explode.

...I know, block damage...completely different outcome...but still this sounds so funny at first.😄

 

Well actually it´s me who goes for the demoliton skill, so if a demo shows up, someone shouts "Demo incoming" all stop to shoot and i go contact grenade followed by a frag rocket. Frag rockets have a low block damage, never use the normal HE rocket for this. The grenades don´t have a high blockdamage aswell.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, khzmusik said:

That entire mechanic is no longer available in A21. You mine a lot, you get resources but nothing else. (You get XP, but it doesn't allow you to craft better tools, so who cares.) You have to abandon your mining and go out looting to be able to craft better tools so you can get better at mining.

 

Note this is just about crafting. By mining a lot you still get levels and the trader gets better stuff. Even with phenomenal bad luck in magazines or excuslively mining you still can buy adequate tools at the trader.

 

 

[Gamida]

@Laz Man, Hey I know it is early but just saw you were here not long ago and wanted to ask, "Have you been working on a new Smells Like Alpha 21" pic yet.

You know for when the time does come.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 this change is bad, and you should feel bad.

From what I’ve seen everyone on the team is optimistic and excited to get these changes in the hands of the players. Nobody is feeling bad. All I feel is amazed that such an unorthodox and unexpected set of changes has resulted in a game that is so much more fun than it was.

 

We should feel lucky this team is willing to take risks and experiment with their designs instead of being limited by execs that care more about delivery dates and sticking to existing and known and safe mechanics. I think A21 will blow everyone away. It’s definitely a risk though and could result in failure but that will make the success that much more sweet. 

[Fanatical_Meat]

@Roland are we going to get the new character (player) models that were displayed on twitter a month or two ago for A21?

[meilodasreh]

fingers crossed this all doesn't come out as A17...I remember before that came out, same words were used, like "great changes, best A since,...".

And after everybody gained perspective...well...let's see.

[Roland]

 

55 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

@Roland are we going to get the new character (player) models that were displayed on twitter a month or two ago for A21?

 

No. A22 for new character models, bandit models, and clothing/armor. They are all interconnected. 

[JamesKirk]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

No. But they're working hard on adding Klingon support! 

@JamesKirk

All well except Cylon🤖

[Jost Amman]

31 minutes ago, JamesKirk said:

All well except Cylon🤖

SO SAY WE ALL! 

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Recently, I've been replaying a lot of A20 7D2D games, including mods with different mechanics... and I have come to the (personal) conclusion that this change is bad, and you should feel bad.

 

My hunch is that these changes will be in A21, but then abandoned immediately in A22 and will never be seen again.

 

Remember when you had to unlock crafting options through reading schematics, and didn't even have the option of unlocking them

I’m playing that now in Alpha 20. This is a change I am looking forward to.  I love the idea of progressing via magazines to craft different items and the fact that there will now be different levels of quality depending on your crafting skill.  And now I will be able to craft a higher level shotgun if I am concentrating on the agility attribute.

[Old Crow]

I'm wondering if the individual attributes will go back to being more than just "Oh, you have a higher chance of dismembering zombies with X weapon." I feel like a higher fortitude should result is more natural damage reduction or more HP, higher strength should result in more melee damage, etc. Right now the attributes (yes I know they allow for higher levels of other perks) just feel too samey and homogenized.

[Jost Amman]

35 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

I'm wondering if the individual attributes will go back to being more than just "Oh, you have a higher chance of dismembering zombies with X weapon." I feel like a higher fortitude should result is more natural damage reduction or more HP, higher strength should result in more melee damage, etc. Right now the attributes (yes I know they allow for higher levels of other perks) just feel too samey and homogenized.

Well, if you want to go there... I really liked how they implemented attributes in Prey, where each new tier also allowed you to use your perks/skills on more stuff or do better or more difficult actions.

[Callum123456789]

50 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

I'm wondering if the individual attributes will go back to being more than just "Oh, you have a higher chance of dismembering zombies with X weapon." I feel like a higher fortitude should result is more natural damage reduction or more HP, higher strength should result in more melee damage, etc. Right now the attributes (yes I know they allow for higher levels of other perks) just feel too samey and homogenized.

It sorta used to be like that in alpha 17 like strength as the attribute influenced block damage and melee dmg and perception influenced ranged damage which arguably made them must have perks but I do wish we get better specialisation with each attribute rather than a 5% decap increase chance and 10% more head shot damage I have to agree it would be great if we could have something similar to what you said for each of the skill tree attributes.

[ArakATK]

You know, I've watched a lot of people and content creators in the 7d space, and I consume more than I think, and I think more than I say, but all that consumption and thinking has left me with something important to say.

 

Remember when all of us started ditching the big production houses and cheering on indie developers, because they had no one to answer to? Remember how we cursed at the big production house executives who know nothing about game design imposing unreasonable timelines on developers, forcing them to put out buggy, incomplete messes, and forced them to make tried tested and safe gameplay mechanics to ensure they'd be accepted widely to the point that the game wound up just being a window dressing on whatever is the game style du jour?

 

How's it feel to become the big production house executives who know nothing about game development imposing unreasonable timelines on TFP, and forcing them to put out buggy messes because of those timelines, and trying to force them to use tried and safe gameplay loops that you're comfortable with to ensure it's accepted to the point the updates become just new textures on existing game skeletons?

 

I for one, am looking forward to getting these changes in hand, seeing if they wind up feeling good or bad, and being able to respond to TFP in a way that is useful (as in, with experience playing with their changes rather than pure prejudice and conjecture) and seeing how they decide to pivot, adjust, or fix whatever those problems, if any, are. So far I think the game has trended towards being way better than it was when I started, even if I thought every step was probably bad. In the end, we all abhor change, but somehow, those changes we abhor have put the game in a better state than it started. If I've been this often, this wrong, I have to trust the team's judgement more than mine, and just -play- the changes.

 

Echoing @Roland here. I'm glad to see a developer with the freedom and willingness to experiment or half the systems of 7d wouldn't exist.

[khzmusik]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

From what I’ve seen everyone on the team is optimistic and excited to get these changes in the hands of the players. Nobody is feeling bad. All I feel is amazed that such an unorthodox and unexpected set of changes has resulted in a game that is so much more fun than it was.

 

We should feel lucky this team is willing to take risks and experiment with their designs instead of being limited by execs that care more about delivery dates and sticking to existing and known and safe mechanics. I think A21 will blow everyone away. It’s definitely a risk though and could result in failure but that will make the success that much more sweet. 

 

I hope you realize that was a joke quote from Futurama, I didn't mean it literally.

 

But also, that response is a "you" problem. It doesn't matter whether the team is willing to take risks and experiment, if the end result is a product that is just as bad as a team that is driven by delivery dates and known mechanics.

 

An analogy. Let's say developer A works 60 hours per week because they're "crunching" trying to get a game done before its pre-determined ship date. Developer B works 60 hours per week because it's part of the culture to make a game that is as good as possible, regardless of ship dates.

 

Which developer has a better work environment? Neither. Both are working 60 hours per week, and that's a problem, no matter why they're being told to do it. If a company expects them to work these hours, they should quit.

 

So it is with game mechanics. Players don't (and shouldn't) care whether a team is willing to take risks and experiment. They care about whether they get a game that is fun to play.

 

This change doesn't seem fun to me. Let me ask: What problem is this solving? How is the current game mechanic "broken" in a way that needs to be "fixed?"

 

Furthermore - if this really is a better game mechanic, then why not use it for everything? Why not get rid of XP and skill points altogether, and make "learning by looting" the only way to progress in anything?

 

EDIT: I can think of one way in which the current system is broken. Once you spec into a certain skill tree, and can craft higher quality items, you can no longer craft lower quality items (because e.g. you don't have enough resources). I guess this system kind of solves that issue - you can choose to not read the magazines, and just store them up until after you crafted the lower quality item.

 

But that's a hell of a big change to solve that issue, especially when it could be solved much easier by just putting a quality selector in the crafting window, needing only a couple UI tweaks and probably a few minor C# changes.

Edited February 6, 2023 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

47 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

This change doesn't seem fun to me. Let me ask: What problem is this solving? How is the current game mechanic "broken" in a way that needs to be "fixed?"

 

It has been stated by Joel and many others several times already.  Crafting progression is broken (e.g. crafting perks grant specific qualities of all types of items within a category) and largely has been less significant compared to other activities for several alphas now.  With this change, there is a smoother crafting unlock curve AND players can engage in more crafting since now they don't need to have a specific perk just to unlock higher quality crafts.

 

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

Furthermore - if this really is a better game mechanic, then why not use it for everything? Why not get rid of XP and skill points altogether, and make "learning by looting" the only way to progress in anything?

 

Because everything else is not broken / needs to be fixed?  Because, it wouldn't be believable or fun?  Because learn by reading is not learn by doing?  A good game mechanic doesn't need to apply to everything to be good.

[Bobby Lee 298]

Can we get something new in the forums, i like the chats from the community but the devs are silent. It doesnt bother me that A21 takes time but i feels like there's no hype-train behind it. bandits are pushed so whats the main goal of this alpha? hd textures, dismemberment, perks and such which is cool none the less but there gotta be something bigger.... something game changing that's gonna refresh this alpha from the past? right

[Roland]

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

This change doesn't seem fun to me.

 

Okay. You'll have a chance to confirm whether what it seems like is what it actually is like.

 

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

Let me ask: What problem is this solving? How is the current game mechanic "broken" in a way that needs to be "fixed?"

 

Not every change has to fix something that was broken. Some changes can add innovation that makes it more fun than it was. Separating the crafting recipes from the perks and giving them their own system has added a lot of fun to the game. I craft more often in A21 than I did in A20. That might feel like a fix to some but maybe not to others. Looting is a lot more fun because desirable rewards are more often found. That might be seen like a fix to some but not necessarily others.

 

I don't think the A20 system is broken but after having played the A21 system I can't go back to A20. I tried and I missed the learn by reading mechanic for crafting too much. That doesn't make the A20 system broken from a design perspective but at least for me I find the A21 system much more entertaining. I realize that not everyone will see it the same way as me. But that is my own experience.

 

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

Furthermore - if this really is a better game mechanic, then why not use it for everything? Why not get rid of XP and skill points altogether, and make "learning by looting" the only way to progress in anything?

 

Variety? It is more interesting with the two systems working side by side than it is just having one single system governing everything. The two systems are more fun than the single perk system and I suspect (though I can't confirm) that the two system design would be more fun than just a single magazine system for everything. There is not just one smoking gun problem that this system was used to fix. It is an evolution, a development step, a further iteration of what we had before in order to add more fun to the game. We will find out if their risk succeeds.

 

 

[WarWren]

Gonna say it again. Learning new skills from books is perfectly normal and it works great in project Zomboid. Paranoia around the change seems irrational.  

[RipClaw]

16 minutes ago, WarWren said:

Gonna say it again. Learning new skills from books is perfectly normal and it works great in project Zomboid. Paranoia around the change seems irrational.  

Just because a system works for all players in one game doesn't mean it will work for all players in another game. Especially when a game is a blend of different genres and attracts different types of players.

[Aldranon]

Maybe a slightly modified system that reflects how reality works.

 

How do people get better at something that's physically practical?

1. Something is explained in words, actions and/or printed material. 

2. They practice it. 

3. They continue step #2 until they are satisfied.  (This could and often does last a lifetime)

 

So, in 7D2D context, this is reading a magazine and then... Nothing more?

Learn By Reading is just the first step (it unlocks the skill at 1 point for example)

Then some type of learning by practicing that eventually rases the skill to maximum.

 

Some types of practicing are semi-passive (a knight wearing 60 pounded of armor/weapons) would eventually get stronger and use to the added weight.

 

Finally, some compromise system where each level of knowledge (potential growth) would require another book/magazine.  The actual gains to the skill would require practice. 

 

 

 

 

[Jost Amman]

34 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Just because a system works for all players in one game doesn't mean it will work for all players in another game. Especially when a game is a blend of different genres and attracts different types of players.

And just because the new system doesn't work for all players of 7D2D, doesn't mean they have to scrap it.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

And just because the new system doesn't work for all players of 7D2D, doesn't mean they have to scrap it.

I didn't write anywhere that they should scrap it. But it has to be considered in the balancing.

 

[Jost Amman]

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I didn't write anywhere that they should scrap it. But it has to be considered in the balancing.

How?

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, Laz Man said:

It has been stated by Joel and many others several times already.  Crafting progression is broken (e.g. crafting perks grant specific qualities of all types of items within a category) and largely has been less significant compared to other activities for several alphas now.  With this change, there is a smoother crafting unlock curve AND players can engage in more crafting since now they don't need to have a specific perk just to unlock higher quality crafts.

I didn't consider crafting broken but underutilized and streamlined a bit too much. The fact that you can loot everything you can craft, and usually in better quality, doesn't help.

 

I'm currently playing the Undead Legacy mod and there is crafing much more important. On the one hand, there are intermediate products that make crafting more interesting and on the other hand, you can upgrade what you loot with crafting. In addition, looting in the mod makes much more sense because really everything is useful. You search through all the trash bags in a POI instead of just going for the main loot.