Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Callum123456789]

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

So if you’re thankful why do you sound so aggressive against the people who made it all possible?  Why do you say it shouldn’t be this way?  Usually when folks feel thankful they just say….”thanks”. 

yeah i thought at first it sounded rather passive aggressive but i would say the message was conveyed with good intentions however if i was to say it it would be so the community can create their own unique experiences with a combination of assets and features from older versions and putting them back in a way that makes for a good addition that tailors to my playstyle preference.

[Laz Man]

46 minutes ago, excali said:

Absolutely correct! Thankfully modding is a thing so the community can make the game into something much better and add back in features and revert dumb changes.

 

Sounds like a win-win to me.  Everyone who enjoys the vanilla version and those who want something different all get to have their ice cream.  Smart move if you ask me. 😎

 

It will be pretty cool to see what type of mods / overhauls will be around post gold.

[Aldranon]

13 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, you're talking about the effort to get food and how much food you'd get... but that's not all what balance is.

I was talking more about the fact that there would be an additional possible source of food. That has to account for something, don't you think?

 

If any pond were an infinite supply of food, it would completely break the game.  Surround it with walls and never leave. GG.

Now if you had to travel to the edge of the map...  It would still be GG but it would take a bit more effort at least. 

[crazywildfire]

1 hour ago, excali said:

Absolutely correct! Thankfully modding is a thing so the community can make the game into something much better and add back in features and revert dumb changes.

 

But maybe some of the stuff in the mod you enjoy and like I/others don't like and if in the base game would say the same thing about making it better. So yes thankfully modding is a thing so everyone can enjoy what one enjoys. Let them make the game they want and see fit. It is their game after all. 

[JamesKirk]

8 hours ago, faatal said:

 

A21 gets closer every day.

 

 

I "fear" Faatal is right🤪. There's heavy activity in the steam repository going on since the last 3 weeks or so. Almost daily updates were committed.

https://steamdb.info/app/251570/depots/

🖖

Edited January 28, 2023 by JamesKirk (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

Why do people assume that, if TFP did add a new feature like fishing, they’d just throw it in without accounting for the effect it had on balance?

My guess is bad experiences. Unfortunately, in everyday life, people often make spontaneous decisions without thinking about the consequences. I see this every day in my work that clients want something changed but don't realise that they are breaking something else.
 

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

Why do people assume that, if TFP did add a new feature like fishing, they’d just throw it in without accounting for the effect it had on balance? I don’t mean to single you out - this critique seems to come up frequently whenever users propose changes. Sometimes we see a proposal for something that really would break the balance in a fundamental way, like crafting an unbreakable block. But I’m sure they could adjust the numbers so food scarcity is easier, the same, or even harder with fishing than without. “What if it’s not balanced?” presupposes the devs will do a bad job, and is not a good reason to shoot down an idea.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough... I'll try to clarify: I think A20's food survival is currently too easy (unbalanced), hopefully before gold they'll make it better.

As for fishing, I wanted to say that IF they add it to the current survival mechanics, they will have to rebalance all the food survival numbers (basically what you said).

[khzmusik]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

So if you’re thankful why do you sound so aggressive against the people who made it all possible?  Why do you say it shouldn’t be this way?  Usually when folks feel thankful they just say….”thanks”. 

 

I don't think it's about gratitude, it's about feeling justified in their opinions. It's the mindset of "if people mod it back in, then people want it, so I am justified in complaining about removing it."

 

Sadly, I think that there is a valid criticism buried in there somewhere. Specifically: TFP have chosen to make 7D2D be in early access for nearly a decade, so it's about time that they choose the core game mechanics. (It's not a criticism I would make, but it's reasonable.)

 

Of course, we can't open that line of dialog, because the OP chose to make his post about vague statements like "the direction this game is going and has been for years has taken so much of what made the game unique away" or "they don’t care what their players want, but 'active player count says otherwise!!!' Right." alongside some generic criticism about the game that has been brought up a hundred times before.

 

Too bad that guy can't back up his statements by legitimate data, like the number of people who played the game last year vs. this year. Or the change in how many people play with mods now vs. a  year ago.

 

Well, c'est la vie, that's the internet for ya.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough... I'll try to clarify: I think A20's food survival is currently too easy (unbalanced), hopefully before gold they'll make it better.

As for fishing, I wanted to say that IF they add it to the current survival mechanics, they will have to rebalance all the food survival numbers (basically what you said).

 

Wait. Didn't you say in your previous post that IF they add it to a hypothetical future version where hunted food were made much more scarce THEN they would have to rebalance? That I could agree with.

 

But not to what you say above. Because as I said IF they had added it to the **current** mechanics in a way that time and effort is similar to hunting then there won't be a relevant difference.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But not to what you say above. Because as I said IF they had added it to the **current** mechanics in a way that time and effort is similar to hunting then there won't be a relevant difference.

Yes, there wouldn't be a relevant difference... since food survival is already unbalanced right now.  

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

from my opinion on what would make food survival balanced is remove all canned food from general loot and only put them in the end chests of tier 1-5 crates so you either have to hunt or try your luck with a higher chance of getting food in a more dangerous poi but ofc this is my pov lemme know what you guys think and what you would do to balance food im curious.

[Burrfly]

I made a list with small things that could relatively easily be added (but I'm not a programmer so Idk):

 

- With all the new high-quality models why does a cement mixer still not visually rotate when doing stuff? That would be such a very small thing that could add a lot of livability if that even is a word.

 

- If gun racks or clothing racks are empty, remove the visual items (i.e. the clothing / guns) from the 3D-object. If the container is not empty, just make them visible again.

 

- Have a very simple animation play when someone is looting or using a storage container such as a chest or a cupboard. The chest or cupboard opens when in use and closes when players go out of the inventory. Such as the drawbridge does but then on a cupboard.

 

- For the electrical component - the alarm/speaker - make an option for different sounds to be used when activated. For example: "Alarm 1" that goes weewooweewoo and "Alarm 2" that goes waaweewaawee or "Air Raid Siren" that goes a lot slower and is more epic which for example can be used when something extremely dangerous is triggered. Or make an option for Volume of the alarm/speaker.

 

- Not so easy to add but would be so cool and add variety: a quad vehicle

[Damolann]

9 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Sounds like a win-win to me.  Everyone who enjoys the vanilla version and those who want something different all get to have their ice cream. 

Different flavors of ice cream confirmed for  A.twenty-something.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Damolann (see edit history)

[meganoth]

59 minutes ago, Callum123456789 said:

from my opinion on what would make food survival balanced is remove all canned food from general loot and only put them in the end chests of tier 1-5 crates so you either have to hunt or try your luck with a higher chance of getting food in a more dangerous poi but ofc this is my pov lemme know what you guys think and what you would do to balance food im curious.

 

But isn't it the hunting part of getting food the part that is currently unbalanced, not the canned food part? Wouldn't it make more sense to then balance hunting, not canned food.

 

 

[Callum123456789]

24 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

But isn't it the hunting part of getting food the part that is currently unbalanced, not the canned food part? Wouldn't it make more sense to then balance hunting, not canned food.

 

 

i guess so yes maybe a mix of both worlds have to happen, canned food is just too common in loot and the snow biome is a meat farm.

[Crater Creator]

48 minutes ago, Burrfly said:

- With all the new high-quality models why does a cement mixer still not visually rotate when doing stuff? That would be such a very small thing that could add a lot of livability if that even is a word.

 

I was just asking about this as it happens, and I was told there is no plan for animations on stations due to the logistics involved.

[crazywildfire]

55 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

But isn't it the hunting part of getting food the part that is currently unbalanced, not the canned food part? Wouldn't it make more sense to then balance hunting, not canned food.

 

 

 

Let me ask.. do you play on a server? Is it just my luck? Because once more then 7ish people are on at one time animals hardly spawn. So let's make it worse gotcha 👌 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But isn't it the hunting part of getting food the part that is currently unbalanced, not the canned food part? Wouldn't it make more sense to then balance hunting, not canned food.

Depends on what you call hunting. I get most of my meat from wolves that attack me.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, crazywildfire said:

 

Let me ask.. do you play on a server? Is it just my luck? Because once more then 7ish people are on at one time animals hardly spawn. So let's make it worse gotcha 👌 

 

First of all it was not my suggestion but Amman's and Callum's. I was just arguing with them about details of their suggestions.

 

Secondly yes, I play on a server of 4. And for the first few days food is actually scarce but not to any serious degree. And currently we get vehicles very fast and then meat starts to pile up, especially when the winter biome is discovered. Animal population seems to respawn faster than we need new meat (it may be 3 days like zombies, don't know for sure?)

 

Thirdly, what do you mean with "more than 7ish" ? If you are talking about 7 or 8 then I would say that there are still enough areas to hunt because in our 4 player game we just hunt the forests around our "home town" (say 500-800 meters around town and small town itself) and that provides ample food for us. Double the number of players and they would need to increase the search radius by maybe 400m and get the area doubled. Food is probably not easy with 8 players on the same spot (co-op), but on the other hand everthing else IS with so much cooperation boosting the group.

 

If you mean 9 and above (on open servers, maybe even with pvp) then bets are off so to speak. In my opinion balancing that together with SP without having a separate special game mode in the game is impossible. And that is surely one reason as well that TFP is not doing any balancing for 9 players and more. Those servers need special rules anyway, for respawning whole areas, cars, maybe safe zones for newbies, max vehicle speed reduction .... So I willfully ignore those special cases too.

 

Oh yes, general advice to all people feeling there is not enough meat arround because they are blind to the environment (like me): One point into the hunter skill in perception is absolutely essential to notice and hunt chickens and rabbits.

 

And if you ask me about my opinion about the topic I would say experienced players would actually need a fix for this, but TFP will probably not change this because for new players food is at the right difficulty.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

First of all it was not my suggestion but Amman's and Callum's. I was just arguing with them about details of their suggestions.

 

Secondly yes, I play on a server of 4. And for the first few days food is actually scarce but not to any serious degree. And currently we get vehicles very fast and then meat starts to pile up, especially when the winter biome is discovered. Animal population seems to respawn faster than we need new meat (it may be 3 days like zombies, don't know for sure?)

 

Thirdly, what do you mean with "more than 7ish" ? If you are talking about 7 or 8 then I would say that there are still enough areas to hunt because in our 4 player game we just hunt the forests around our "home town" (say 500-800 meters around town and small town itself) and that provides ample food for us. Double the number of players and they would need to increase the search radius by maybe 400m and get the area doubled. Food is probably not easy with 8 players on the same spot (co-op), but on the other hand everthing else IS with so much cooperation boosting the group.

 

If you mean 9 and above (on open servers, maybe even with pvp) then bets are off so to speak. In my opinion balancing that together with SP without having a separate special game mode in the game is impossible. And that is surely one reason as well that TFP is not doing any balancing for 9 players and more. Those servers need special rules anyway, for respawning whole areas, cars, maybe safe zones for newbies, max vehicle speed reduction .... So I willfully ignore those special cases too.

 

Oh, yes general advice to all people feeling there is not enough meat arround because they are blind to the environment (like me): One point into the hunter skill in perception is absolutely essential to notice and hunt chickens and rabbits.

 

You make a good point I feel like the animal tracker perk gets forgotten about, you can literally crouch in certain areas and find roughly 4 small animals in an area if you successfully get then that's an easy 40 meats heck even 80 if you max out the huntsman I've never had an issue with finding stuff to hunt.

[crazywildfire]

49 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

First of all it was not my suggestion but Amman's and Callum's. I was just arguing with them about details of their suggestions.

 

Secondly yes, I play on a server of 4. And for the first few days food is actually scarce but not to any serious degree. And currently we get vehicles very fast and then meat starts to pile up, especially when the winter biome is discovered. Animal population seems to respawn faster than we need new meat (it may be 3 days like zombies, don't know for sure?)

 

Thirdly, what do you mean with "more than 7ish" ? If you are talking about 7 or 8 then I would say that there are still enough areas to hunt because in our 4 player game we just hunt the forests around our "home town" (say 500-800 meters around town and small town itself) and that provides ample food for us. Double the number of players and they would need to increase the search radius by maybe 400m and get the area doubled. Food is probably not easy with 8 players on the same spot (co-op), but on the other hand everthing else IS with so much cooperation boosting the group.

 

If you mean 9 and above (on open servers, maybe even with pvp) then bets are off so to speak. In my opinion balancing that together with SP without having a separate special game mode in the game is impossible. And that is surely one reason as well that TFP is not doing any balancing for 9 players and more. Those servers need special rules anyway, for respawning whole areas, cars, maybe safe zones for newbies, max vehicle speed reduction .... So I willfully ignore those special cases too.

 

Oh yes, general advice to all people feeling there is not enough meat arround because they are blind to the environment (like me): One point into the hunter skill in perception is absolutely essential to notice and hunt chickens and rabbits.

 

And if you ask me about my opinion about the topic I would say experienced players would actually need a fix for this, but TFP will probably not change this because for new players food is at the right difficulty.

 

 

Around 7 or 8 people.  Been around for years so already know they not balancing for mega servers. But we have several groups. Spread across the map. Maybe you play on a server as one but not everyone does. Once you spread out things start to not spawn regularly once you get around 7 to 8 people on. If they are only balancing for single player and servers that play together then so be it. But you don't need 9 plus people for spawns to act up. Even bloodmoons, we have several people that hardly get a full bloodmoons. But that a different story. But back to animals we get to day 40 and if it wasn't for can food / farming we would struggle even more if we just counted on meat. We got to a point where we did mod for animal traps just to get meat to make better food because animals hardly spawn unless you talking about zombie animals and those don't give raw meat. But like I said if they are balancing for only single player and group play only then it is what it is. 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

First of all it was not my suggestion but Amman's and Callum's. I was just arguing with them about details of their suggestions.

What?? I never suggested nerfing canned food in loot!

I was just talking about a "general rebalance". Please don't put words in my mouth.

8 minutes ago, crazywildfire said:

 

Around 7 or 8 people.  Been around for years so already know they not balancing for mega servers. But we have several groups. Spread across the map. Maybe you play on a server as one but not everyone does. Once you spread out things start to not spawn regularly once you get around 7 to 8 people on. If they are only balancing for single player and servers that play together then so be it. But you don't need 9 plus people for spawns to act up. Even bloodmoons, we have several people that hardly get a full bloodmoons. But that a different story. But back to animals we get to day 40 and if it wasn't for can food / farming we would struggle even more if we just counted on meat. We got to a point where we did mod for animal traps just to get meat to make better food because animals hardly spawn unless you talking about zombie animals and those don't give raw meat. But like I said if they are balancing for only single player and group play only then it is what it is. 

They should simply add a "hidden" animal spawn multiplier based on the number of players. Problem solved.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Oh yes, general advice to all people feeling there is not enough meat arround because they are blind to the environment (like me): One point into the hunter skill in perception is absolutely essential to notice and hunt chickens and rabbits.

Yes, but not more than one point, because at 2 (or was it 3?) it bugs out and doesn't work until you reach max.

Unless they fixed it for A21 that is...

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Gamida]

Ok so to me, no matter if you are talking of a game that is purely for fun or if it is more realistic isn't the point of it to as you progress to make your life easier. Take say tv shows or movies of zombies. One thing most have in common is people will group up and start little communities. It seems one of the things they try to do first is fix the food problem. They start farms and such.  Growing food and raising any animals they can find. Most of their problems after that is killing hordes and keeping roving bandits from coming in and taking all their crap. Again, just me, I don't mind that the game is hard on you in beginning but if by day 1000 you are still struggling just to eat enough to not starve then you must be doing something wrong and you won't survive...well you are surviving just what is the point.

I may have lost something in translation from what I was thinking to what I wrote but am hoping most of you will get it.

 

Was wondering why this got a thumbs down but then didn't mind so much after seeing the person who did it had given 10 posts a thumbs down in last 25 minutes.

From looks of it all in this channel.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Gamida (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

In the snow biome, you get too much food, even for 8 people.  One cook and another farmer would leave 6 people blasting helpless bears, cougars and dire wolves.

 

On that line (unless 7D2D is a fevered dream the player is having, to wake up at the start of part 2) there should be a body fat percent. this would keep the player alive for up to 7 days before death (now you know the reason for the game title!) .  The player can regain body fat by eating more than just being full.

 

EDIT: While the player is using just body fat, all stats are halved.  OK now done!

Edited January 28, 2023 by Aldranon (see edit history)

[LostBoy]

On 1/27/2023 at 4:06 AM, meganoth said:

 

I don't think food balance would be a problem. In the same time that you hunt for meat walking around you could consume your time with fishing. If it was fishing with a spear you would also waste some stamina. Same effort in time and stamina, same random risk to even find anything to hunt or fish at all. And the result would be 5 meat as well if they want to keep the recipes simple.

 

 

So, we've got Zombie Vultures and Zombie Bears   .   .   .  

 

 

Would adding Fish mean :

 

 

 

 

 

Or just :

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by LostBoy (see edit history)