Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Dimasic-Colbasic]

Guys, tell me, please, do you plan to add a display of clothing, armor from the 1st person? I think it would look pretty cool. Instead of constantly looking at bare hands at all stages of the game.

[Roland]

@Laz Man can you give us the number of new POIs broken into tiers for A21? How many old POIs got updated for A21? What's the total count for fully updated POIs now?

 

Which one of yours are you most excited to see players explore?

[Laz Man]

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

@Laz Man can you give us the number of new POIs broken into tiers for A21? How many old POIs got updated for A21? What's the total count for fully updated POIs now?

 

Which one of yours are you most excited to see players explore?

 

The number is still in flux but there should be an updated count soon.  Apart from the new power station POI I mentioned before, I am excited to see what players think of some of our updated POIs.

 

For example, I am currently working on updating ranger_station_01.  I believe that one was originally a T1 POI, but is now updated to T3 with restore power quest support.

 

There are many old POIs such as this one getting the Tier / gameplay bump alongside its art update.

[Roland]

They're just juicy tidbits. One is extra juicy.

 

36 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

The number is still in flux but there should be an updated count soon.  Apart from the new power station POI I mentioned before, I am excited to see what players think of some of our updated POIs.

 

For example, I am currently working on updating ranger_station_01.  I believe that one was originally a T1 POI, but is now updated to T3 with restore power quest support.

 

There are many old POIs such as this one getting the Tier / gameplay bump alongside its art update.

 

The numbers are in flux but can you give us an idea of whether there are any new T4 and T5 Poi's or are you guys focusing on T1 - T3? Do you personally prefer narrow passages and tight corners or wide open arenas when designing levels? Do you like doing things that trick players (at least on their first playthrough)? Got anything mean planned for us?

 

What goes into bumping a T1 to the T3 level and adding a new quest type support? I take it that it is more than adding sleepers and slapping a generator somewhere in the POI...

Edited February 1, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

The numbers are in flux but can you give us an idea of whether there are any new T4 and T5 Poi's

Yes, there are.

 

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

are you guys focusing on T1 - T3?

 

No, we are focusing on updating any old POIs up to current standards regardless of tier.  We are also trying to add new POIs to categories that are under represented.

 

37 minutes ago, Roland said:

Do you personally prefer narrow passages and tight corners or wide open arenas when designing levels?

 

I enjoy them all.  Variety is the spice of life.  I also like pioneering new experiences when new tech. is added. (E.g. new flame hazards)  I often look to movies and TV shows for inspiration.

 

 

 

 

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Do you like doing things that trick players (at least on their first playthrough)? Got anything mean planned for us?

I don't know what you are talking about.  We only create wholesome entertaining levels... 😁

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

What goes into bumping a T1 to the T3 level and adding a new quest type support? I take it that it is more than adding sleepers and slapping a generator somewhere in the POI...

 

Bumping up a POI in tier is typically decided upon whether it can support it.    For example, ranger_station_01 has plenty of exploration space (with some alternations) to support a T3 experience and thematically can support a restore power quest (radio tower generator).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Doomofman]

Is T1 to T3 the biggest jump any POI has had? Or has a T1 ended up being a T4 or 5 at some point (not necessarily in A21)?

 

Also has someone updated black red mesa to have a Valve somewhere? 😏

Edited February 1, 2023 by Doomofman (see edit history)

[IzPrebuilt]

Hey i mean if we're talking news, any word on those Alpha 21 streamer weekend applications?

Streamer weekend still happening?
Last time those applications opened like 2 months before the actual event. Is that indicitive of how much we'll have to wait this time too?

[zztong]

@Laz Man

 

Are there any new Tiles? Any new techniques or tricks with Parts?

[Aldranon]

Will there be any tweaks to pathing or are there options to change the type of pathing?

IE: Non blood moon pathing remains the same, but blood moon pathing is "Charge in and start hitting something."  

 

I ask because I'm sure that Bandit pathing with be distinctly different from zombie pathing.  So, introducing various pathing's just makes sense.

Also, a special pathing that deals with a known OP player!  Also let Bandits call for backup! (For said OP players.  Not exactly pathing but a behavior)

 

That would be stupendously great!

[Laz Man]

17 hours ago, Doomofman said:

Is T1 to T3 the biggest jump any POI has had? Or has a T1 ended up being a T4 or 5 at some point (not necessarily in A21)?

 

Also has someone updated black red mesa to have a Valve somewhere? 😏

 

I don't recall any POIs going from T1 to T4 or higher.  Depends on the theme / category though, so it could happen.

13 hours ago, zztong said:

@Laz Man

 

Are there any new Tiles? Any new techniques or tricks with Parts?

 

Maybe...🤔

[zztong]

12 hours ago, Gronal said:

Laz Man is giving out information! Quick everyone dogpile them.

 

Well sure. Roland seemed to be hunting for news.

 

I'd love to geek out over RWG and POI stuff. If we were playing one of those "If you could invite 4 people to a dinner party, who would they be and why" games with a TFP slant, I'd be torn trying to decide between the RWG devs, the POI team, or some blend of the two.

[Riamus]

3 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Well sure. Roland seemed to be hunting for news.

 

I'd love to geek out over RWG and POI stuff. If we were playing one of those "If you could invite 4 people to a dinner party, who would they be and why" games with a TFP slant, I'd be torn trying to decide between the RWG devs, the POI team, or some blend of the two.

Well, obviously some blend of the two so you can get information about everything!  Lol.

 

I would definitely like to see more tiles and parts to help each game and town look different.

[zztong]

8 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I would definitely like to see more tiles and parts to help each game and town look different.

 

Heh, now I'm in a mood to talk RWG, Tiles, Parts.

 

With POIs folks kind of like memorable POIs. With Tiles, being memorable seems to contribute to a Flintstones/Bedrock feeling where you keep passing the same few background items again and again. For instance:

• The dogleg around the pond on rwg_tile_rural_straight
• The roundabout on rwg_tile_residential_intersection
• The road loop on rwg_tile_rural_countryresidential_cap
• The bridge on rwg_tile_downtown_interesection_02
• The tower on rwg_tile_downtown_straight

Parts offer an opportunity to disguise the dogleg/pond, the roundabout, and tower. Maybe the bridge too, but that might be an awkward fit.

 

In contrast, while I'll bet many people remember the road construction that can appear on rwg_tile_downtown_intersection, since it only appears 40% of the time, I'll bet those people don't always recognize the tile itself being repeated.

 

The human brain is really good at patterns so we're probably doomed never to have "enough" variety, but I think extensive use of Parts can mess with the brain for a bit longer.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

 

Heh, now I'm in a mood to talk RWG, Tiles, Parts.

 

With POIs folks kind of like memorable POIs. With Tiles, being memorable seems to contribute to a Flintstones/Bedrock feeling where you keep passing the same few background items again and again. For instance:

• The dogleg around the pond on rwg_tile_rural_straight
• The roundabout on rwg_tile_residential_intersection
• The road loop on rwg_tile_rural_countryresidential_cap
• The bridge on rwg_tile_downtown_interesection_02
• The tower on rwg_tile_downtown_straight

Parts offer an opportunity to disguise the dogleg/pond, the roundabout, and tower. Maybe the bridge too, but that might be an awkward fit.

 

In contrast, while I'll bet many people remember the road construction that can appear on rwg_tile_downtown_intersection, since it only appears 40% of the time, I'll bet those people don't always recognize the tile itself being repeated.

 

The human brain is really good at patterns so we're probably doomed never to have "enough" variety, but I think extensive use of Parts can mess with the brain for a bit longer.

You bring up a good point.  I think tiles that don't try to be too unique that they are obvious every time you see them work better in that regard.  A basic intersection with buildings isn't obviously the same one you saw previously, but as you said, the bridge stands out.  Even so, having more tiles, even if they aren't super unique, can help to break up the feeling of duplicate sections of town.  Of course, there is only so much you can do without being noticably unique.  I still like seeing more tiles and more parts combining to add variety, even if I recognize the more unique ones often.  Considering how quickly the POI feel like you have seen the same few a million times, having tiles give off that same kind of feeling isn't too big of a deal to me.  Just having variety is better than not having it even if it repeats, imo. 

 

I suppose the question I'd have is whether or not you can limit the number of times a specific tile can generate on a map?  If you can limit it, then you could make very unique tiles that appear only a few times on a map so they don't seem so repetitive.  It seems like the bridge is set up that way as you normally don't see it very often in a given map.

 

One thing I see when I start including custom tiles from others is that those tiles can end up repeating a lot.  This is especially true with certain corner pieces.  Having more of these tiles, even if only minimally different in layout can help reduce the look of repetition.

 

One other reason those tiles seem so noticable is that they are entirely unique.  There is only one bridge, only one circular intersection, only one rural s-curve.  This makes them stand out compared to a regular intersection that has multiple variations.  That doesn't necessarily mean more variations of each of those is going to make things better, but only that it is a reason why they stand out.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Cr0wst0rm]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Heh, now I'm in a mood to talk RWG, Tiles, Parts.

 

With POIs folks kind of like memorable POIs. With Tiles, being memorable seems to contribute to a Flintstones/Bedrock feeling where you keep passing the same few background items again and again. For instance:

• The dogleg around the pond on rwg_tile_rural_straight
• The roundabout on rwg_tile_residential_intersection
• The road loop on rwg_tile_rural_countryresidential_cap
• The bridge on rwg_tile_downtown_interesection_02
• The tower on rwg_tile_downtown_straight

Parts offer an opportunity to disguise the dogleg/pond, the roundabout, and tower. Maybe the bridge too, but that might be an awkward fit.

 

In contrast, while I'll bet many people remember the road construction that can appear on rwg_tile_downtown_intersection, since it only appears 40% of the time, I'll bet those people don't always recognize the tile itself being repeated.

 

The human brain is really good at patterns so we're probably doomed never to have "enough" variety, but I think extensive use of Parts can mess with the brain for a bit longer.

I think that this game misses out on a lot of variety due to being strictly tied to it's "manhattan" nature.
I had a thought once if it would be possible to generate the buildings on a full (0° - 360°) rotation range instead of being strictly tied to 90° all the time and then actually split the result into the individual building blocks, while taking away the possibility of player author this house for their needs, because all the blocks would be virtually generated ingame due to how the house was aligned. 

[Jonathan]

Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 

[zztong]

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

I suppose the question I'd have is whether or not you can limit the number of times a specific tile can generate on a map?

 

We don't see the configuration of most of the built-in Tiles. Among the Tiles listed in rwgmixer.xml, you can specify a min and max number of times it can appear per settlement. So, you can have min=0 and max=1 to make a Tile unique within a settlement. This supports Tiles with a special purpose really well.

 

When we add Tiles via a modlet, the only config I know is the min/max settings. I'm not aware of a way to specify "we'd like to enter this countryresidential_cap Tile into the lottery with an equal chance to be placed." That means if I want to make a more-generic Tile that is placed as an random replacement with an equal chance, I have to generate a bunch of maps, try to get a feel for what "max" will give the Tile an equal chance as the built-in Tile of the same type. I'm not sure I explained that well enough to be clear.

[Riamus]

27 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

We don't see the configuration of most of the built-in Tiles. Among the Tiles listed in rwgmixer.xml, you can specify a min and max number of times it can appear per settlement. So, you can have min=0 and max=1 to make a Tile unique within a settlement. This supports Tiles with a special purpose really well.

 

When we add Tiles via a modlet, the only config I know is the min/max settings. I'm not aware of a way to specify "we'd like to enter this countryresidential_cap Tile into the lottery with an equal chance to be placed." That means if I want to make a more-generic Tile that is placed as an random replacement with an equal chance, I have to generate a bunch of maps, try to get a feel for what "max" will give the Tile an equal chance as the built-in Tile of the same type. I'm not sure I explained that well enough to be clear.

Well, since I was referring to custom tiles, that seems like it would work well in helping to limit unique tiles from seeming to appear too frequently.

[Roland]

@Jugginator @unholyjoe what are your impressions from testing A21? Anything you can share that is your favorite change?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan said:

Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 

 

It never stopped being active. I can answer question 3 - there was one, the Behemoth. As I understand it, they couldn't get it working right (yet modders have no issue getting it to work), so it was removed and and replaced with the demolisher zombie.

[Roland]

47 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

It never stopped being active. I can answer question 3 - there was one, the Behemoth. As I understand it, they couldn't get it working right (yet modders have no issue getting it to work), so it was removed and and replaced with the demolisher zombie.

 

What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.

[bdubyah]

36 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.

Khaine has a mod for it. It works, but it isn't perfect by any means. But I don't see why they couldn't have polished it up over time, though the model itself just seems odd to me, even in this game. I like the demo and its mechanics more.

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.

Well... pathing issues are... good for zombies.  

 Behemot see you in building? start destroying everything <everything> to get too you like SNK titan. he can't because because dunno - he fall in too big hole?

explain in lore that behemot have brain issues. In warhammer fantasy goblin can't scratch his nose because it's too complicated for them - so pathing issues can be solved just by lore.

In l4d2 if Tank can't find path to survivors will die - there is no explanation but by comics you can learn that can be brain issue.  So if behemot would die from frustation... this could be good enough - it's not terraria or valheim where you kill enemies for loot

[Guppycur]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 

What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.

Step one, rip the model and textures.

 

Step two, re rig it, add colliders.

 

Step three, see the issue with dogs and bears exacerbated by a giant entity clipping through things.

 

...but yeh it's been in mods for a while now.