Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Kalex]

24 minutes ago, vergilsparda said:

expanding on this, an option to simply remove the name and difficulty pop up when the poi is in a land claim block would be good too 😭

 

The ability to rename them would be sick but even just the option of it not appearing after some time would be cool!

 

also a question for the POI builders/renovators, if you have the time to answer: what's your workflow like on updating POIs for alpha 21 and beyond (or even just for creating new POIs)? Especially in the case of shrinking houses or buildings that are to large (or unrealistically sized)? 

 

Or simply change the title to "Land Claimed"

[Crater Creator]

21 hours ago, Roland said:

As soon as Madmole gives the say so I’m sure that Crater Creator will get it started. Are we really ready for arguments over armor, outfits, bandits, weather, and the traders becoming an even more critical factor in the game?
 

Of course we are!

 

Getting closer but not yet, sayeth the brothers Huenink.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Wrong. 😉

 

Learn by doing is literally how we have evolved as a species.

 I’m glad you are the one who is wrong about this because if students could gain new knowledge simply by repeating and practicing their current knowledge, I would be out of a job. 
 

The type of learn by doing we had in the game had nothing to do with how we have evolved as a species but it did have a lot to do with how some members of the species could become masters of skills they already had. 
 

[Arma Rex]

I think LBD could have some place in training with firearms, agility, strength, and fortitude, but specifically with crafting and intelligence I think that the magazine system is much closer to a realistic learning curve.

[Gamida]

I think that in our western culture it is a combination of both LBR and LBD. I mean we go to school for years reading and practicing things we have read.

In way, way, way back times it was probably more LBD. I would imagine someone learned how to do something by someone who knew how to do it showing them

and then they would practice it until they got good at it. Probably why we still are not 100% up on how they built the pyramids. They didn't write down the damned instructions

so that means it must have been passed on by someone showing them (I don't mean aliens)

Anyway it's a game. I play it as is. That is all.

 

Oh I forgot to mention, trader rekt is an ass.

[Tete1805]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 I’m glad you are the one who is wrong about this because if students could gain new knowledge simply by repeating and practicing their current knowledge, I would be out of a job. 
 

The type of learn by doing we had in the game had nothing to do with how we have evolved as a species but it did have a lot to do with how some members of the species could become masters of skills they already had. 
 

 

Well, you don't learn tennis by reading a magazine and you don't become better at it by reading more magazines.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Tete1805 said:

Well, you don't learn tennis by reading a magazine and you don't become better at it by reading more magazines.

No, you don't. And that's why the magazines only teach you how to craft a tennis racket. 

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, Gamida said:

I think that in our western culture it is a combination of both LBR and LBD. I mean we go to school for years reading and practicing things we have read.

In way, way, way back times it was probably more LBD. I would imagine someone learned how to do something by someone who knew how to do it showing them

and then they would practice it until they got good at it. Probably why we still are not 100% up on how they built the pyramids. They didn't write down the damned instructions

so that means it must have been passed on by someone showing them (I don't mean aliens)

Anyway it's a game. I play it as is. That is all.

 

Oh I forgot to mention, trader rekt is an ass.

 

56 minutes ago, Tete1805 said:

 

Well, you don't learn tennis by reading a magazine and you don't become better at it by reading more magazines.

 

Other than quality levels of something, the game does not represent any aspect of getting better at crafting things.  So practice (LBD) isn't reflected in the game.  You could say that LBD makes sense for quality levels.  In that one area of crafting, you could realistically get better by practice (by doing).  However, practicing to make iron doesn't make you good at making steel.  Practicing making a bow doesn't make you good at making a crossbow.  If you have no schematics or anything to teach you how to make those things, then learning such things would require so much time and effort as to not fit within a reasonable timeframe within a game.  Take someone who has never made a pistol and ask them to learn how to make one by trial and error (LBD).  It won't happen.  Yes, people did come up with these designs in the past through trial and error but that process took considerable time and energy.  It wasn't done in the middle of hunting and scavenging and trying to defend against zombies every day with hordes attacking every week.  And even if it did happen that way, it wasn't done within days or weeks or even months.  Other than food recipes or clothing, pretty much anything crafted in the game required many years of study and research and learning techniques from others that are then adjusted to create a different design that wasn't known previously.  And even then, as I said, it's using information learned from others.  You are a character who presumably isn't an expert at all these different crafts.  You can't just practice your way into making something complex without prior knowledge or learning through reading or being taught.  Few people here could create a working pistol, shotgun, drone, vehicle, etc. through trial and error.  Your character isn't any different.  As I said, other than quality levels, crafting isn't about getting better through practice.  It's about learning new things that you did not previously know.  That doesn't happen just by doing.

 

Now... if you're talking about quality levels, then I agree that your ability to make better quality levels could come through LBD.  However, that means grinding like what they had previously and what is seen in basically any LBD game out there where LBD is used in crafting.  You have to craft a ton of stuff just to get better so you can make better things that you have to then craft more of to make even better things within the same tier.  Yes, that is realistic but it isn't great for gameplay for a lot of people.  Some people love that kind of grinding but many do not.  I can't say which side has the greater number of people on it and I doubt anyone can.  We can guess but that doesn't mean we are correct.  And in either case, there will be a lot of people on both sides, so it doesn't even matter because it's all just opinion about whether it's fun or not.  And that still only covers quality levels and not tiers or new items.

 

Some things may be easy to make or not require much effort to figure out how to make.  I could craft a simple workbench easily, for example.  I wouldn't need to learn how.  Granted, it wouldn't be great quality, but it would be functional.  But other things are far more complicated and require being taught or learning by reading/research into how to do the thing.  And in terms of gameplay, having all crafting follow the same mechanics is better than having some things use one mechanic and some things use another just because some items are easy enough to figure out how to craft without having been taught to do so.

 

So, in terms of crafting, LBR makes the most sense and is entirely realistic and provides good gameplay.  If you want to discuss other things in the game like fighting skills, that most definitely is improved through practice.  And that is actually how the game works.  You gain experience by doing.  It isn't separated into different skills and is only an overall experience but it's still experience gained through doing things in the game.  That experience is then used to get better at different things through the use of perks.  So you are use LBD to gain ability in fighting skills.  It is a bit abstracted as it is in many games rather than being tied to specific skills like you might see in some games like the Elder Scrolls games but it's still LBD.  Maybe you prefer Elder Scrolls games where if you run, you gain skill in running and if you swing a sword, you gain skill in swinging a sword.  That's fine but that's not the only way to create a game.  Most games with skills have you gain experience and that experience can be used to improve your skills.  That might be through perks or a skill tree (or both, like in Fallout) or it could be through an automatic system where all skills simply get better each time you level up.  These are all ways of using LBD in a game.

 

LBD simply doesn't work well for crafting.  LBR simply doesn't work well for fighting skills (though it can work for learning a new type of fighting skill).  A hybrid of LBD and LBR is the better option for games that have both fighting and crafting skills.  And we have that here.  It may not be designed all that well and is certainly nowhere close to being balanced but it is there.  Some games offer the third option of "LTBT" (Learn Through Being Taught - sorry, I can't think of a 3 letter acronym and Learn By Teaching sounds like you're doing the teaching instead of being taught, which isn't the same thing).  This is usually done through a master of some sort that you pay to unlock a skill or improve a skill.  It is sometimes the only way to gain a new skill or level of skill but in most cases, it is just an alternative and faster way to learn or improve a skill.  They could add something like that to this game but I don't really see any need for it.

 

People learn things in real life through a combination of LBR, LBD, and "LTBT".  But not everything can be learned by only one of these methods.  Some things require more than one method to really learn it.  And some may require all 3 to really get good at it.  If you have knowledge of the way people learn in school, you'll know that some people learn better from one method than from other methods.  Some learn best by having someone explain it to them.  Others learn best by hands on.  Others learn best by reading.  But even in those cases, it depends on what you're learning as to what method(s) are necessary to learn the skill.

 

One other thing to consider... yes, I could pick up a stick (club) and start swinging it around and with practice, I would probably get relatively good at hitting zombies with it.  But without anyone to teach me good technique or reading something that explains good technique, the chances I'll get to be a master with a club would be very low.  Pit me against someone who was taught how to use it and even if I spent years practicing, I probably wouldn't stand a chance.  LBD can only get you so far on its own.

[EggsAisle]

I always thought it'd be a legendary prank if TFP announced that the new way to unlock schematics was by accessing gacha machines in which you feed premium currency (purchased with real-world money, naturally) for a chance at obtaining a common, uncommon, rare, or very rare blueprint that you may or may not already possess. Watch the debate over LBD versus LBL immediately vanish as though it never was! 

 

Entirely too on-the-nose, though. We just had someone in here freaking out about microtransactions based on breathless conjecture and literally nothing else. More fuel for that kind of fire would just be a massive headache for everyone. Ah, well.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Tete1805 said:

 

Well, you don't learn tennis by reading a magazine and you don't become better at it by reading more magazines.

 

You don't learn tennis by reading a magazine simply because there are tennis instructors that impart the knowledge and that is the most effective method. But if there were no tennis instructors and you found a magazine that described the rules of tennis and how to hold the racket and different hitting techniques you certainly could learn how to play tennis a lot faster than you could by experimentation.

 

Once you had the knowledge you would get better at tennis through repetitive practice. It would be tougher to improve without an instructor's feedback but it could be done.

 

My point is that whether it is by reading, direct instruction, or watching youtube all of these fall under the LBR umbrella in that you are gaining new knowledge by appealing to an authority on the subject. Direct instruction is the most effective method while having to learn it by reading only is less effective.

 

For a post-apocalyptic setting it makes sense to regain lost knowledge by finding remnants of information that you can find while scavenging. It is neither stupid nor nonsensical.

 

Is it fun gameplay? THAT is going to be each gamer's personal opinion. 

[zztong]

17 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Learn by doing is literally how we have evolved as a species.

 

Not really, but I think you acknowledge that in the rest of your post. I might not fully understand all your points.

 

EDIT: Well, my fear is that I reacted to that first sentence and didn't spend a lot of time reading further. Then I ran off at the mouth with the following...

 

LBD is certainly part of how we have learned -- You use a tool, you encounter a complication, and you have an idea for how to improve the tool. LBD also represents practicing and perfecting a skill. But that ignores that people also learn through information conveyed to them from others -- lectures, videos, books, magazines, etc. That form of learning typically precedes LBD. If folks are chasing realistic learning, then embrace both.

 

Personally, I look at the current system of collecting points as being a nice base to allow for both. I think their could be "skill quests" that would generate knowledge to be applied to a skill. These could have a LBD aspect, like "Cook Bacon and Eggs and earn a point in Cooking." Another approach would be to make it such that a LBD milestone had to be accomplished before a skill could move up to the next tier (a gateway task), like "Make an Iron Tool to be able to advance your knowledge to the next level."

Edited August 3, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

Also I was thinking about this. 

 

Will animals get a New update. Again.  For alpha 22+? 

 

I know we got one on alpha 16 and 19 but bears, deer, boars, wolf's rabbits still look like playdoe. And the animations aren't as good as the zombie dogs 

 

I CAN'T WAIT for it to come to console! I get to play with my work homies 

 

[Matt115]

18 hours ago, Guppycur said:

 

Wrong. 😉

 

Learn by doing is literally how we have evolved as a species.  For the purposes of the game and its accelerated time, LBD makes a ton more sense.  Yeh yeh it was broken in how it was implemented, you should never have been able to gain the knowledge of say, making concrete by spamming stone axes, however it's incredibly realistic to make better stone axes the more and more you make.

 

Hell you described LBD yourself when you said 'and many trials of failure before success is gained'.  I like that idea.  Failure chances eat the materials.  Let's do it. 

 

...finding what is essentially the same magazine over and over again in loot is "Learn by Reading", which would make sense in some contexts but not the more abstract materials you read over and over again the smarter you become on the subject.  All of a sudden the world is filled with magazines?  C'mon man. 😃  They should have disintegrated faster than wood rots.

 

The perfect system IMO would have been LBD where it makes sense (making better quality items), LBR where it makes sense (learning new skills as a baseline for later LBD), and a Skill tree to select from on character generation (old world skills you start off with as a baseline).

 

Making a stone axe?  Come across a "primatives" book, or try it on your own with a chance to fail rate, or start off with a skill.  Making a better stone axe?  Doing it over and over again.  Forging a scrap or even iron axe?  Find a book that teaches you basic forgery skills, then find a book that's specific to that *type* of item (not a lot of difference between forging an axe and a machete, but a far cry from forging bullets).

 

The good news is, we've probably got 2 more alphas left, and tfp likes to change systems entirely so... fingers crossed. 😃

 

Let me summarize.  LBD was the best method, it was just executed veeeery poorly, by allowing LBD to learn things not associated with the repetitive action.

Perfect system would be if... don't consider every type of weapon as equal but make them more... "realistic" - melee weapons as "saving ammo" bow and crossbow as cheap but nothing more stealth weapon while guns should be much more powerful and have more variants while much less ammo. Then  LBD could work for using weapons/tools. LBL for crafting stuff while  things like healing, barter, looting have both sources - reading and doing

42 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

Also I was thinking about this. 

 

Will animals get a New update. Again.  For alpha 22+? 

 

I know we got one on alpha 16 and 19 but bears, deer, boars, wolf's rabbits still look like playdoe. And the animations aren't as good as the zombie dogs 

 

I CAN'T WAIT for it to come to console! I get to play with my work homies 

 

I miss pigs

 

[Morloc]

Is there a way to configure a game so that you get exactly one of each trader? (At work, or I'd just check it).

 

If there isn't....there should be! 🧛🏻‍♂️

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[zztong]

2 hours ago, Morloc said:

Is there a way to configure a game so that you get exactly one of each trader? (At work, or I'd just check it).

 

As far as I know there's no RWG feature that will spit out a world like that.

 

However, I recently wanted a map like this. I used RWG to generate a map, located the 5 traders I wanted to keep, then edited the world's prefabs.xml file to change the other trader POIs into alternative POIs. For those alternative POIs, I made some custom "dead" versions of the traders that are infested with zombies. This will ship with the next release of the ZZTong-Prefabs modlet, though they won't be rigged for RWG to find them. To use them, you'd have to edit your world's prefabs.xml file.

 

Example. Change this:

<decoration type="model" name="trader_jen" position="2889,33,-1845" rotation="2"/>

 

To this:

<decoration type="model" name="trader_jenx" position="2889,33,-1845" rotation="2"/>

 

Note the only difference is an "x" on the end of the name.

 

Note 1: Some people have done this by editing the trader POI XML files and setting a theme distance.

 

Note 2: I'd happily contribute those "dead" trader POIs to Teragon if that team wanted to offer such as feature. TFP is certainly able to make RWG do this if they wanted.

 

Note 3: I could see where some people might not want traders to be placed on Country Tiles -- that is, Gateway Tiles that are not connected to a settlement. Conversely, I could see some people might only want traders to be on Country Tiles and never on Gateways tiles that are connected to a settlement, though I suspect you might need changes to the game to support finding quests a longer ways off.

Edited August 3, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Morloc]

25 minutes ago, zztong said:

TFP is certainly able to make RWG do this if they wanted.

 

The last maps I've played felt too "civilized". I don't mind long rides to the quests to slow the game down. I appreciate the effort that went into the artwork and voices for the existing traders, so I do like to have them all in the game (5 seems tolerable). A checkbox to disable traders from spawning in the Wasteland would also be welcome.

 

Thanks for that workaround zztong!

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[Mr. Perfect]

@faatal What is the math behind the skill magazine bonus find from perks? How much does it increase with multiple points in a perk?

 

A friend has a new method in A21 where you max out the perk that adds a find bonus for a given magazine, then when you get up to 100 magazines use a Fergettin' Elixer and max out the next magazine perk. I thought that would just mean he'd be working on magazines in series instead of in parallel like I'm doing by spreading points around multiple perks, but he's blasted past me in every magazine. I've got about five magazines that are all middling in progression, but he's got five maxed out at the same level.

 

It certainly seems to work, so I'm wondering how the math scales. Linearly? Faster?

[Jost Amman]

I've never understood people playing the game like that.

No one is able to just relax and play the game as an exciting adventure anymore. 

[Mr. Perfect]

I suspect rushing is a MMORPG player's way of looking at things, where the real content is at the end game and the leveling is a mindless grind you get through as fast as you can.

 

Not that 7Days is like that, I'd say it's more of a journey-instead-of-the-destination kind of game.

 

[Guppycur]

23 hours ago, Roland said:

 I’m glad you are the one who is wrong about this because if students could gain new knowledge simply by repeating and practicing their current knowledge, I would be out of a job. 
 

The type of learn by doing we had in the game had nothing to do with how we have evolved as a species but it did have a lot to do with how some members of the species could become masters of skills they already had. 
 

I acknowledge my post was long but here's the part you may have missed, and I think we agree on.

 

***

The perfect system IMO would have been LBD where it makes sense (making better quality items), LBR where it makes sense (learning new skills as a baseline for later LBD)

***

 

Just do it so it makes sense, and it'll succeed. 

 

[mandeglor]

I like alpha 21 and I'm glad to see that it has gone back to the path of alpha 16 in a way, when we desperately searched the bookstores to read recipes. However, I think there is a bit of randomness missing, it's all a bit too linear. When you start the game, you know that you won't be able to achieve anything really good as long as you don't read magazines and level up, because looting depends on this too. I wish there was some small, remote, but real option of finding something good, something that is difficult to happen but can happen. Maybe an abandoned base of a dead (simulated) player with chests and some good loot (maybe steel, concrete, some vehicle, weapons...), something very hidden (underground maybe?) that is hard to find but can happen. Another option could be a crashed plane, perhaps at sea with several boxes of things you might have "ahead of time". In short, a small and remote option, but a real one to have something good ahead of time. You know that it exists and that it is out there, it is a good motivation for the "treasure hunt", it adds an incentive. There would also be the "magical" moment of accidentally finding it... what a great joy that would be.

[4sheetzngeegles]

11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I've never understood people playing the game like that.

No one is able to just relax and play the game as an exciting adventure anymore. 

I do. I temporarily turned off the horde. First because I realized
I was liking just the foraging searching and hunting. Deer come out
at night for me and I needed animal fat. Second because if I constantly
concentrate on having to build fortifications I felt I was missing more of
the actual play through, the root game. Just playing toward a battle royale.

 

I now go out at night further and further, just before dusk I now pick a poi
sometimes a tall building or large footprint, partially clear it, and make a
temporary refuge. Complete the clear over night, and return to my permanent

base in the morning to prep for the next outing.

 

The plan is to find each city and set up a remote site, and clear as I go.
The traditional way, seemed a bit rushed. This is relaxed and i can actually
play for four plus hours at a sitting. It all began simply because I want a
beaker.

 

It is also allowing me to see, what i want to adjust as I progress. Tiers will
go bye bye for me. The only adjustment to damage will be my strength  level,
and weapon mods. Every unlike AI will attack every other. There are two basic factions
living and dead with a sub faction of predator and prey.

 

The last part i'm working on is the environmental effects on the player. And i still
adjusted the biome altitude map just for visuals. So there is still at least one that
still sees it as a relaxing adventure game.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, mandeglor said:

I like alpha 21 and I'm glad to see that it has gone back to the path of alpha 16 in a way, when we desperately searched the bookstores to read recipes. However, I think there is a bit of randomness missing, it's all a bit too linear. When you start the game, you know that you won't be able to achieve anything really good as long as you don't read magazines and level up, because looting depends on this too. I wish there was some small, remote, but real option of finding something good, something that is difficult to happen but can happen. Maybe an abandoned base of a dead (simulated) player with chests and some good loot (maybe steel, concrete, some vehicle, weapons...), something very hidden (underground maybe?) that is hard to find but can happen. Another option could be a crashed plane, perhaps at sea with several boxes of things you might have "ahead of time". In short, a small and remote option, but a real one to have something good ahead of time. You know that it exists and that it is out there, it is a good motivation for the "treasure hunt", it adds an incentive. There would also be the "magical" moment of accidentally finding it... what a great joy that would be.

 

Bobs Boars and Carls Corn

 

Though I agree, there should be 2-3 more of those locations to make player explore. Not with superior loot, but similar to bobs boars with an item that you can't get elsewhere, for example recipes similar to the secret recipe of shamways.

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Guppycur said:

I acknowledge my post was long but here's the part you may have missed, and I think we agree on.

 

***

The perfect system IMO would have been LBD where it makes sense (making better quality items), LBR where it makes sense (learning new skills as a baseline for later LBD)

***

 

Just do it so it makes sense, and it'll succeed. 

 

I didn’t miss that part but I was simply responding to the part of your post that was incorrect regarding how knowledge acquisition actually works. 
 

As to your suggestion, I would be fine with a hybrid system of LBR and LBD but not how you organized it. Reading to unlock a recipe and then use LBD with crafting to push the quality tiers up is exactly what was wrong with the game in A15 which is why all forms of “spam crafting” were finally removed for A16 even though LBD was still in force for other skills. 
 

LBD would be great for improving skill in using items which is what the current point system handles. So the LBR would need to remain intact as it is for crafting recipes including the quality tiers. The point spending system of getting better at skills is the only thing that would be replaced by LBD. 
 

The thing is that in my opinion the point spending system is also fun and enjoyable and perfectly adequate so it doesn’t really need to be replaced. It can be played in a way that feels like you’re progressing in an organic and natural manner and still gives the freedom of not having to grind in those categories you don’t really enjoy but want to improve in. 
 

If they changed the skill point spending part of the game back to LBD and kept the crafting progression as it is now by looting magazines, I would be fine with that but— I’m also fine with the current system. They both represent skill mastery but just in a different manner and they both can be abused in different ways. 
 

The original post I was responding to claimed that the current system of reading to learn how to craft new recipes is nonsensical because it isn’t how people learn. I simply demonstrated that we learn new knowledge easiest by having a teacher of some form—in this case magazines and that in most cases we don’t learn something new by practicing something we already know.
 

We hone acquired skills through practice which can be represented by either the LBD or point-spending systems. Even if LBD was to be ultimately chosen over point-spending it would STILL be a good idea to keep the quality tiers as “new recipes” rather than as “improved skills” since spam crafting was really bad for gameplay. 

[Guppycur]

No, what was wrong with "spam crafting" was being able to unlock steel because you spammed stone axes.

 

With regards to how "knowledge acquisition really works", I'm correct about that as well, but I can see why you as an academic, believe knowledge can only be acquired by being taught.  That's simply not the case however.  In the real world, people learn things by trial and error as well, and frankly they learn more that way than from books.

 

Doing x works, doing y doesn't, so we do x.  Maybe rust buddies continue to do y, but thankfully they aren't the majority.

 

Hell, look at animals.  Eat the brightly colored frog, get sick.  That's not taught by a book.  Chasing a porcupine is a bad idea.  Also not in a book.  Humans are the same, we're just more sophisticated about it.  Sure, we *can* acquire knowledge from books but we only get good at something by doing it.  Go watch a drywall video and patch your first hole, lemme know how well you do compared to a drywall guy.

 

Look at the evolution of a pistol.  Going from musket to today's semi auto, they're two completely different technologies but rooted in the same idea.  That technology developed over time from doing, not reading, and as I mentioned in my op we simply accelerate that for game purposes.  

 

...also, good morning.  You up early or late?