Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[LiftPizzas]

Why did you guys go out of your way to ruin the buried supplies quests? They are awful now. That stupid circle makes it take 10 times as long, and it worked fine before if you properly use the marker to find where to dig.

 

It's already enough of a pain (and takes forever) to walk all the way there and back, because let's face it these are only early game quests since the loot is only a few cans of food so you aren't doing these with a vehicle. The requirement to dig for 20 minutes (because you also don't have decent tools yet) is just terrible design.

 

Please at least make it so the marker is at the location of the chest like it used to be, not the location of the yellow circle's center.

[JCrook1028]

9 minutes ago, LiftPizzas said:

Why did you guys go out of your way to ruin the buried supplies quests? They are awful now. That stupid circle makes it take 10 times as long, and it worked fine before if you properly use the marker to find where to dig.

 

It's already enough of a pain (and takes forever) to walk all the way there and back, because let's face it these are only early game quests since the loot is only a few cans of food so you aren't doing these with a vehicle. The requirement to dig for 20 minutes (because you also don't have decent tools yet) is just terrible design.

 

Please at least make it so the marker is at the location of the chest like it used to be, not the location of the yellow circle's center.

Facts matter, try using them. The rewards are NOT only food. Just yesterday I drove to the location on my motorcycle on D10 in game. Lvl II buried supplies quest. I pulled a level 5 scrap leg armor and a lvl 6 primitive bow out of the same chest. The armor I sold cause I go light armor tree but the bow was an upgrade from my lvl 3. Having the chest actually work as intended and be in a random place in the area is now fixed so yea, your exploit of using the marker to know the exact coord is now removed. I dig supplies and treasure the exact same way I always have, In lines skipping alternate rows using the flashing red marker. When I'm done I seal the tops with wood frames. It's far from being a time intensive process. This is still with a stone shovel even.

[redneckraccoon]

22 minutes ago, LiftPizzas said:

Why did you guys go out of your way to ruin the buried supplies quests? They are awful now. That stupid circle makes it take 10 times as long, and it worked fine before if you properly use the marker to find where to dig.

If you want to find that treasure fast, max the perk. 3 "blocks" removed and circle shrinks? Probably find it in no more than 12 "blocks" removed. Quit whining about something being fixed so that you can't just dig down and find immediately. I seriously doubt anybody could find an exact spot something is buried out in the open in real life, even with GPS. It gives a bit more common sense feel to finding the buried goods. And once you can dig a dirt block with one swing, it would be mere seconds to find anyways

[Laz Man]

44 minutes ago, LiftPizzas said:

Why did you guys go out of your way to ruin the buried supplies quests? They are awful now. That stupid circle makes it take 10 times as long, and it worked fine before if you properly use the marker to find where to dig.

 

It's already enough of a pain (and takes forever) to walk all the way there and back, because let's face it these are only early game quests since the loot is only a few cans of food so you aren't doing these with a vehicle. The requirement to dig for 20 minutes (because you also don't have decent tools yet) is just terrible design.

 

Please at least make it so the marker is at the location of the chest like it used to be, not the location of the yellow circle's center.

Well that's a first...its actually faster for me with the circle...

 

Before I would use frames to narrow down the dig area.  

 

If the dig area is on a mountain it can take even twice as long. (In A18)

[madmole]

6 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Well that's a first...its actually faster for me with the circle...

 

Before I would use frames to narrow down the dig area.  

 

If the dig area is on a mountain it can take even twice as long. (In A18)

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, madmole said:

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

From a usability and time management standpoint i think its great.  If your the type of player who was fine with the rally point marker for quests, the change is probably welcome.  If your big on immersion, less hud elements, harder survival, probably not so much.  It would be nice if at some point there was a survival+ (very hard) mode sorta like how Fallout 4 did later after release.

[RyanX]

3 minutes ago, madmole said:

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

The new system does require more digging.  Don't like the circle, though, breaks immersion for me.  Also makes tons of holes all over the MP maps, it's a hazard there.

[Roland]

52 minutes ago, LiftPizzas said:

Please at least make it so the marker is at the location of the chest like it used to be, not the location of the yellow circle's center.

lol...I remember describing the shrinking circle and people stating how useless it was going to be because the chest was always right below the zoomed in icon on the map. Then I explained that the chest could be anywhere in the circle area and not just directly below the map marker.  The map marker matching exactly the location of the chest was not intended. You were always supposed to have to search for the chest within the area. A19 fixed that but also gave a shrinking guide circle so that the experience would be a hot/cold minigame and not just blind digging. Despite the circle itself being pretty arcadey-- it does make finding the chest faster than otherwise.

 

The unlinking of the exact chest location and the map icon was going to happen anyway. Don't blame the circle for that.

[Gazz]

1 minute ago, RyanX said:

The new system does require more digging.  Don't like the circle, though, breaks immersion for me.  Also makes tons of holes all over the MP maps, it's a hazard there.

No, not really.

It only does if you used to exploit one of several bugs with dig quests in A18.

Bugs got fixed.

[RyanX]

5 minutes ago, Gazz said:

No, not really.

It only does if you used to exploit one of several bugs with dig quests in A18.

Bugs got fixed.

Every previous alpha I just dug a hole straight down 3 blocks, stood roughly at the location of the center of the red flashy chest, then dug around in a circle till I found it.  Was much, much quicker.  No bugs, etc.  I'm not knocking the difficulty, though.  I'm fine that it takes longer.  Just don't like the yellow ring.  I don't have solutions either, but the holes are even bigger now creating craters all over MP maps which was already a problem using the old method, requiring moderators to police them.

[Jay_ombie]

25 minutes ago, madmole said:

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

Digging quests are great and a fun way to collect Clay I find.

 

2 hours ago, madmole said:

Yes, this is the biggest issue, is that the limited range of voxels makes rifles kind of pointless, because most encounters are short to mid range. There are some uses for the rifle for sure, but it doesn't make it enticing enough to spec into.

I thought it was on high GS.

 

What about allowing us to equip on Rifles a bayonet ?... this would then act as a spear when not fired for close quarters and give that extra plus for rifle users.

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

That actually sounds like a great incentive to kill things farther out.  Great idea.

i mean it makes sense!

 

 

Snipers have longer barrels so the bullet can pick up more speed! and the faster the bullet! the more damage!

 

at close range it would be its base damage but if you hit a zombie from a far it will up the damage!

2 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Madmole, you have two votes in our corner. We want zombie bears on horde night. 😈

i though they where a thing for hordes!

 

 

 

also add crispy zombies to the mix!

[pregnable]

3 hours ago, madmole said:

We don't have a way to store who made the spike (so no way to award XP) unless we turn it into a model entity instead of a block, and then we get poor performance from too many entities, draw calls, etc.

 

I was thinking more like the perk makes it so you get exp when anything dies from any spike, regardless of owner. 

 

Obviously not important and not worth spending any real time on... and if there are any problems with it, like you said, not worth doing, heh.  Plus it might be exploitable. 

[hiemfire]

55 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

Snipers have longer barrels so the bullet can pick up more speed! and the faster the bullet! the more damage!

 

at close range it would be its base damage but if you hit a zombie from a far it will up the damage!

That is the complete inverse of how most firearms (outside of gyrojets/rockets which continue accelerating once they leave the barrel/tube due to their propellant being contained within the projectile itself instead of being held in the casing the projectile is fitted in) work.

[madmole]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

From a usability and time management standpoint i think its great.  If your the type of player who was fine with the rally point marker for quests, the change is probably welcome.  If your big on immersion, less hud elements, harder survival, probably not so much.  It would be nice if at some point there was a survival+ (very hard) mode sorta like how Fallout 4 did later after release.

We have enough options I don't think it is needed really.  Fallout wasn't a survival game when it shipped and my guess is they saw the success of us and Rust, Day Z, etc, and decided to toss survival in. Then that didn't work so they thought the magic secret sauce must be MP so they made Fallout 76. The difference is they were trying to make the game something it wasn't, to appeal to a wider fan base. We are making the game what it is, and to appeal to us internally. If we think a system isn't very good we improve it. Of course there is always some guy who thinks the hacked in quick version was better. We don't. That is the draw back with early access is some players get married to unfinished systems that we put in as a placeholder, or its missing the polish features we wanted to do but didn't have the time, etc. But as we polish for gold that always makes a few haters, but generally we make more fans.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

From catching up i can say this, mines are useful till the corpse lands on other mines and detonates them lol

Zombie bears on horde night?  Bring it with a special radiated version of the dogs and bears

 

My Ideas, can we have a new stage of irradiated zombie, the way they look now, we could have a harder version that is actually glowing, could make for the rad suit to come back into effect

[madmole]

1 hour ago, Jay_ombie said:

Digging quests are great and a fun way to collect Clay I find.

 

 

What about allowing us to equip on Rifles a bayonet ?... this would then act as a spear when not fired for close quarters and give that extra plus for rifle users.

There is no code for that and it just muddies the water between melee and ranged. Its just another mechanic that isn't needed. I'll do a perception build sometime and then I'm sure I can figure out a way to make them work.

[Laz Man]

5 minutes ago, madmole said:

We have enough options I don't think it is needed really.  Fallout wasn't a survival game when it shipped and my guess is they saw the success of us and Rust, Day Z, etc, and decided to toss survival in. Then that didn't work so they thought the magic secret sauce must be MP so they made Fallout 76. The difference is they were trying to make the game something it wasn't, to appeal to a wider fan base. We are making the game what it is, and to appeal to us internally. If we think a system isn't very good we improve it. Of course there is always some guy who thinks the hacked in quick version was better. We don't. That is the draw back with early access is some players get married to unfinished systems that we put in as a placeholder, or its missing the polish features we wanted to do but didn't have the time, etc. But as we polish for gold that always makes a few haters, but generally we make more fans.

 

That's a very good point.  More power to you guys for trying to find that magic blend.  It certainly isnt easy and without its share of critics...

 

Edit: Props to you guys for trying to innovate versus settling for something already out there...

[Adam the Waster]

27 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

That is the complete inverse of how most firearms (outside of gyrojets/rockets which continue accelerating once they leave the barrel/tube due to their propellant being contained within the projectile itself instead of being held in the casing the projectile is fitted in) work.

hey i learned something new today

 

 

thank you!

[Blake_]

 

 

Hi! @faatal I've got some new ish info on performance.

It goes without saying, everything is fully reinstalled and Appdata 7dtd folder deleted. a19 b169

 

Known stuff: Console Warnings result in bumbs in performance. When those console warnings are in the same second the bumb is huge and freezes the screen.

 

List of ALL the console warnings that generate the bumbs:

 

1. Path node warning. Happens close POIS with extremely high elevation from the floor AND with a generated road. Road has to be walkable without jumping.(POI example in the screenshot). FPS IMPACT: HIGH (Complete freeze for a few seconds).

Spoiler

 

 

2. Console warning "Calling Animator GotoState Synchronize layer" and falling off the world entities (and dropped items) FPS IMPACT: 15-40fps on minimum systems.

 

Spoiler

Also, after changing resolution, 2 of those warnings pop up dropping performance to an otherwise smooth resolution downgrade  (+ INF  settings notifications at the same second didn't help a bit either):

Spoiler

 

3. Console warning "Kinematic body only supports continuous collision detection" when entities ragdoll. Happened to me with Zds and animals. FPS IMPACT: 15-45fps on minimum systems.

Spoiler

 

4. EVERYTHING that happens in the same second generates bumbs. Here are some examples:

 

-Sleeper spawns (as you can see in the picture one of them happens simultaneously  with another --> janitor+boe, resulting in a noticeable bumb of a few seconds (2-5 seconds depending on the place)

Spoiler

 

-MUSIC!! Music code forces 3 notifications (and more) to happen simultaneously generating a bump in minimum systems:  in the picture, you can see INF messages that are the ones that give the bumps as they happen too close together in time (EXPLORATION track from NONE, together with fadeings and a SectionSelector notification). Too much INF. As they happen in the same second, performance drops. FPS IMPACT: 15-40 fps on minimum systems.

Spoiler

 

 

-There can also be music ISSUES like in this picture, where a track stops playing altogether, generating a warning and therefore another fps drop. (15-40fps)

Spoiler

 

AND music issue with INF notifications + synchronize layer warning = bumb bump:

Spoiler

More SCREENSHOTS of many of them together: (sleeper spawning within the same second + INF music notifications (also same second a bit before) + kinematic warning = bumb bumb bump.

Spoiler

 

 

POSSIBLE FIX: 

 

1-Console warnings: Whatever. Already talked about those. They hurt.

-Kynematic body warnings and Synchronize layer warnings : are they really THAT useful vs the performance hit they generate?

I mean, it affects EVERY single combat for kynematic. And the Sync one doesn't lag behind either. Actually, it does (pun).

 

2-Sleeper spawns and BIOME spawns and animal spawns: Every entity from every system in the game can never spawn simultaneously with another entity. The best case scenario should be a 2 SECOND delay for every sleeper spawn starting from the closest and maintaining current area triggers (btw they are nicely done). Also, sleeper spawns can never spawn at within the same second from a biome spawn, being Zd or animal. On top of that, a 2 second spawn from each other will not create bumbs. Just a constant small drop that goes unoticeable.

 

3- Music: I don't even know if there's something to fix there, it might be automatically started. Probably there should be a timer between INF notifications. The music warning about a missing track might be important? idk.

 

Here, I think you will need this reward after this is over:

Spoiler

 

 

 

[pregnable]

If you are going perception and want to melee you should get the wrench skill lel. 

 

Spears are not great, but wrench skill is very strong and can wreck @%$*#! with a power attack. 

 

The wrench suffers from the problem a lot of weapons and stuff have in the game, where you basically need to find one before you can make one, but at least finding an early crappy wrench is pretty easy.  An early forge works too. 

[rdunham3]

2 hours ago, madmole said:

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

I've seen several buried treasure and/or buried supplies quests where the circle migrates each time it shrinks so the eventual chest location is outside the original circle. One time it was very noticeable because the slope the area was on meant I kept breaking through the surface. Final hole was at least 15 blocks from the original circle, SW I think. Surface looked a bit like a checkerboard with one corner where the original circle's center had been and the other corner where the final 1-meter-diameter circle and treasure box was.

 

Was originally dismayed to find treasure boxes were locked now but it makes sense and I've gotten over it.

54 minutes ago, madmole said:

There is no code for that and it just muddies the water between melee and ranged. Its just another mechanic that isn't needed. I'll do a perception build sometime and then I'm sure I can figure out a way to make them work.

I understand where you come from with that but I'd like a key to do a bayonet-stab or (for guns w/o bayonet) butt-stock bash as an option when you want a melee hit but don't want to switch weapons. Shoot, zombie goes down, starts getting back up, butt-stock bash to finish, move on. Sure, I can switch weapons and do it without that, but it'd be a nice touch if it were a possible thing.

[LiftPizzas]

2 hours ago, madmole said:

Yeah I would say 99% of the users would agree the new digging system is better. A, you can't exploit it, B the shrinking circle is helpful. Buy the perk to maximize its effectiveness. Before I'd end up with 5000 clay on some digs you just couldn't find it for x reason. Now it shrinks and I'm guaranteed to find it.

It didn't feel like an exploit, like I said the vast majority of the effort put into getting it was simply getting there and that was enough effort to justify the rewards. It made sense to me that you could find the marker the way you did, as if there was a little beacon on the supplies box and the compass marker took the place of a little beepy homing device thing to find the closest spot to dig.

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, madmole said:

There is no code for that and it just muddies the water between melee and ranged. Its just another mechanic that isn't needed. I'll do a perception build sometime and then I'm sure I can figure out a way to make them work.

I think spears are close to where they need to be.  They are fantastic as a stealth melee weapon and if your aim is good they are ok in a fight too with throws.  Jabby jabby is pretty weak  so normally only after a throw to finish a zombie off.  Once the toolbelt is fixed so you can throw multiple spears and picking them up puts them back on your toolbelt (right now only 1 goes back to the toolbelt) spears should be in alright shape.  They'd  still need some help to compete with the best melee weapons but they're viable enough.

Rifles really only have penetration over everything else.  In practice their range and single shot damage just doesn't matter.  Especially with all the random decaps that other guns can get.  They can get the job done when played well but they are definitely not on the level of other guns, bows, or even junk turrets.  If they're going to compete as slower refire high damage per shot weapons then they need to straight up wreck tougher enemies IMO.

Explosives also feels kinda weird under perception.  Explosives are so strong they completely overshadow the weapons.  I kinda feel like there should be another stat that focuses on explosives and fire and mines and spike traps and etc and that baseline bombs should be nerfed a bit since even baseline explosives are stupid good and cheap.

[MechanicalLens]

6 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

I think spears are close to where they need to be.  They are fantastic as a stealth melee weapon and if your aim is good they are ok in a fight too with throws.  Jabby jabby is pretty weak  so normally only after a throw to finish a zombie off.  Once the toolbelt is fixed so you can throw multiple spears and picking them up puts them back on your toolbelt (right now only 1 goes back to the toolbelt) spears should be in alright shape.  They'd  still need some help to compete with the best melee weapons but they're viable enough.

Rifles really only have penetration over everything else.  In practice their range and single shot damage just doesn't matter.  Especially with all the random decaps that other guns can get.  They can get the job done when played well but they are definitely not on the level of other guns, bows, or even junk turrets.  If they're going to compete as slower refire high damage per shot weapons then they need to straight up wreck tougher enemies IMO.

Explosives also feels kinda weird under perception.  Explosives are so strong they completely overshadow the weapons.  I kinda feel like there should be another stat that focuses on explosives and fire and mines and spike traps and etc and that baseline bombs should be nerfed a bit since even baseline explosives are stupid good and cheap.

If the issue was fixed with spears falling through the world, I'd be tempted to use them again.  Before B169 I started a temp world and I lost 5 stone spears in 2 in-game days.