ZombieHorde Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The dude was asking for help and I told him where to find his help but you think he doesn't want or shouldn't want to read the help? Help is help. It's in the game and it's pretty concise and it's available right now and it has little bits of Gazz personality to it which I find hilarious in some of the journal entries. [snip] I gotta admit, the in-game help was actually the one and only place that really did answer it for me in a manner that was easy to understand. I think what was confusing is reading a bunch of stuff in the forums which didn't make a lot of sense (maybe because I wasn't playing the game at that time) and the 7d2d wiki help on the topic is not clear. I chose to go to the website before I went to the in-game help and then thought if the wiki can't help, the in-game help won't be any better. So my fault for not trying harder before posting a semi rant. Thanks again for directing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Just a question, when will nerdpoling be removed, if it will be? Basically every 7D2D YouTuber I can think of utilizes this exploit to get to the loot room and thus bypass the majority of the threats within POI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieHorde Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 ... But I do admit that the system is complex enough that it requires an explicit explanation of how it works so...not intuitive. But the explanation needed is brief and readily available and once it is understood it works very well so in my mind...worth it. Now that I know what I'm looking at, I fully agree. And it wouldn't take much to introduce people, but yeah, most will just gloss over the help files, at best. Sorry that I am one of the 'most' in that case. ... I guess it’s my board game background. There isn’t much about Twilight Imperium that can be figured out without reading the rules but it is an amazing experience if you do. ... Board game background? Hey, can you recommend any games similar Tales of the Arabian Nights? One of the best board games, in my opinion. So much fun! Either that or Progress: Evolution of Technology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieHorde Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Disagree. If it has to be explained it can still be good. In fact it can be great. It might not be the best for mass market non-readers out there but the system itself can be amazing. This system can certainly be improved and I’m all for it. But casting it aside because it needs a tutorial? Create a tutorial and keep the system. I guess this proves anyone can be for dumbing stuff down. Funny thing is if they cut this system and dumb it down we will be going back to a minimum of four bars which they won’t even be able to claim is streamlining in that case. Just simply dumbing it down for those who can’t be bothered to learn it and want it to be so simplified as to be able to pick it up and play immediately. Now excuse me while I go play some intuitive games on my iPhone... Lol! Owned, Gup! Get him back by teasing him about his dumbed down 'smart' phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Lol! Owned, Gup! Get him back by teasing him about his dumbed down 'smart' phone. Hold my earrings! Disagree. If it has to be explained it can still be good. In fact it can be great. It might not be the best for mass market non-readers out there but the system itself can be amazing. This system can certainly be improved and I’m all for it. But casting it aside because it needs a tutorial? Create a tutorial and keep the system. I guess this proves anyone can be for dumbing stuff down. Funny thing is if they cut this system and dumb it down we will be going back to a minimum of four bars which they won’t even be able to claim is streamlining in that case. Just simply dumbing it down for those who can’t be bothered to learn it and want it to be so simplified as to be able to pick it up and play immediately. Now excuse me while I go play some intuitive games on my iPhone... If it was anything else EXCEPT the UI I'd agree... but this is supposed to be the abstraction for what my character feels/senses, so I shouldn't have to read a manual to understand if I'm thirsty, hungry, or hurt. It should be intuitive and basically a passive experience. What's odd is that you're for NO UI, yet you support this UI that you basically have to actively think just to use it. (okay, gimme my earrings back) =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SittingDuck Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Hold my earrings! If it was anything else EXCEPT the UI I'd agree... but this is supposed to be the abstraction for what my character feels/senses, so I shouldn't have to read a manual to understand if I'm thirsty, hungry, or hurt. It should be intuitive and basically a passive experience. What's odd is that you're for NO UI, yet you support this UI that you basically have to actively think just to use it. (okay, gimme my earrings back) =) This can only be solved in a cagefight!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Hold my earrings! If it was anything else EXCEPT the UI I'd agree... but this is supposed to be the abstraction for what my character feels/senses, so I shouldn't have to read a manual to understand if I'm thirsty, hungry, or hurt. It should be intuitive and basically a passive experience. What's odd is that you're for NO UI, yet you support this UI that you basically have to actively think just to use it. (okay, gimme my earrings back) =) 2 bars instead of 4 is closer to none. /maths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieHorde Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Speaking of smartphones, anyone played We Were Here? A short but pretty nifty game where you and your buddy find yourself separated in a castle by nefarious means. The first room you're in you find a walkie-talkie to communicate with your friend and help discuss the traps and coordinate the puzzles. It's far more Immersive having to have a one-sided talk, saying 'over' and releasing a button in order to get a reply. Very fun! So, we have phone towers in the game. So I wonder if we were to find a phone in the loot, we could communicate like that? Or we have press t for chat in the game. That is like an sms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Just got back from vacation and don't understand whether you are talking about the system or the UI itself only but: Intuitive is also something that you are able to know or understand something because of feelings rather than facts or proof. Adding more bars to the UI may make it simpler to understand but it won't make it more "intuitive", because intuitive also includes "compact". And if you can represent something reliably with non-intrusive effects and no UI, all the better. I agree that a perfect UI needs to be understandable at first glance, but is it really so hard to just add a couple of dynamic coloring and icons inside the current bars to represent overeating, rate of regeneration, penalties thresholds etc? Or to make something as good as or better than this (concept-wise)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THARN Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Now that I know what I'm looking at, I fully agree. And it wouldn't take much to introduce people, but yeah, most will just gloss over the help files, at best. Sorry that I am one of the 'most' in that case. Board game background? Hey, can you recommend any games similar Tales of the Arabian Nights? One of the best board games, in my opinion. So much fun! Either that or Progress: Evolution of Technology? Try and play Kriegspiel at age 10 with a bunch of college students.... ww2 boardgame or any Avalon hill game where rule books are like reading scientific American magazines....whats my point? I dunno... I guess... it boils down to trial and error in video games-- board games you don't have something telling you it's not working as planned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 This could possibly be solved with a simple texture change. As the grey or black bar is revealed just show the international symbol for whatever is required to replenish it. For example; a cross is, for various cultural and historical reasons, the international symbol for "health replenishment". As the black bar is revealed you can see the cross symbol being revealed. Combine this with a small icon in the corner of the description for any object that can help, in this case a first aid kit would be the prime example, and you have a simple pictographic system with little to no reading required. I quite like the system but it could be communicated in a more intuitive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVegaNL Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Also Kerbal Space Program 2 was announced for 2020. Next year will be busy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVegaNL Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 and moves with tectonic speed Which is still faster than some people in the government I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hek Harris Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 I think they do but its seriously very slow. I could be wrong though. I confirm that natural regeneration is effective by default. Our avatar recovers at least one point per minute. And it's perfect like that. Regarding the 9mm turrets, I see no problem (except that they shoot at the zombies when they are behind an obstacle). You can set one to shoot you. Now, run and you'll see that damages are pretty well balanced ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecv Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The biggest problem with the health/stamina system is the lack of contrast between the gray and black bits. As someone mentioned several pages ago, a border around the bar may go a far way to making it more visually obvious what is going on. It’s not the end of the world if someone looks up an entry on healing to see how to fully heal your character provided that the UI makes it evident to them that they have lost max health. Give it a semi transparent background with tiny icons of the item class(es) you need to consume to raise it again Just catched up. What Gronk said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.natural Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Rick and I agree that the ISS is too complicated. That other guy did it, not to say he was bad, he's a great designer but could make a turd sound fun in a meeting. Unfortunately now is not the time to gut ISS. A19 we'll probably do a straight forward simple health and stamina system. A lot of guys try to get tricky and think its cool but at the end of the day complicated designs always fail. If people can't understand it, its just not good for the game. That is mostly because the hunger/thirst stats are counterintuitive. Dying from thirst or hunger at 25% filled ?!? I bet when it does show your'e near 0% most players would understand it, not? What the actual value is in the background does not matter (like 1 % stamina is as good as zero movement), it is what is displayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Which is still faster than some people in the government I think Or me, finding out that, when on a vehicle, you can sound the horn with "X". Man I hope its not from since minibike is in, that`s thousands of hours of not knowing that, till yesterday.. #shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpoon Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 The dude was asking for help and I told him where to find his help but you think he doesn't want or shouldn't want to read the help? Help is help. It's in the game and it's pretty concise and it's available right now and it has little bits of Gazz personality to it which I find hilarious in some of the journal entries. The current system is perfectly logical. If you read the explanation it is clear and you can immediately understand how the interaction of the bars represents stamina, hunger, thirst, superficial damage, and more permanent damage. It IS more complex than it was in previous alphas but once you understand how it works it is incredibly intuitive and quite ingenious. In my opinion, it would be a tragedy to just return to simplistic bars. To me, it is worth a bit of reading if you can't figure it out on your own especially when the reading is short and to the point and exists in the game itself. I get that you don't personally like the system but just because you don't like it doesn't make it illogical. It is a very good representation of how hunger affects stamina and hydration affects recovery and also for having a dynamic variable maximum of energy and health depending on what has happened to you, how you are exposed to the elements, and what types of first aid measures you've taken. I guess if we were surfing a web page instead of using a graphical representation of a complex game status we would want to dumb it down for maximum user friendliness. Or we can have something more complex that a player can do some light in-game reading about if they feel they are a bit lost on how it works so we can actually feel like we are playing a game instead of just navigating through web links. Most games in the world have instructions that can be read. It isn't a foreign concept to the gaming world though it might be to the web design world. Boo! It's perfectly understandable and there are perfectly understandable instructions. We are playing a game. There can be some slightly complex rules in a game.....a game for adults no less. Once you grok the system it IS simple and elegant for representing all that it does. If you needed to change anything I would say add a small bar on the bottom of the stamina that represents hunger and shows the full range all the way to the maximum overfill so people can visually see their hunger going down even when the stamina max is at the top. And how can you grok the system? Less than 2 minutes reading a short description provided in the game. Imagine...reading some rules about a game you are playing. Shocker! Save yourself some work... If people keep asking the same questions, there's a problem with the design Roland, and you've seen it on this forum again and again. I understand this problem intimately because I build interfaces for a living. It doesn't matter how clever I think something is, or how witty the help files are, if user testing proves that people aren't intuitively working out how to perform tasks, then it's back to the drawing board. Just because you want to read about what you're playing before actually getting into it doesn't mean that others will feel the same as you. Rick and I agree that the ISS is too complicated. That other guy did it, not to say he was bad, he's a great designer but could make a turd sound fun in a meeting. Unfortunately now is not the time to gut ISS. A19 we'll probably do a straight forward simple health and stamina system. A lot of guys try to get tricky and think its cool but at the end of the day complicated designs always fail. If people can't understand it, its just not good for the game. I'm really glad that you will look at making it a bit more intuitive. After over 4000 hours in this game, my husband quit 7 Days to Die over A17's Health and stamina system. Maybe I can rope him back in for A19. I'm also really happy that you guys take such pride in your work that you haven't gone gold prematurely. I know there are a lot of whingers who feel the game should'nt have been in Alpha this long, but I guess that is the difference between a cash grab and a labour of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber Shadow Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Hmm if the ISS is going back to being simple , and wellness is gone. Maybe we should implement a nutrition system. Where eating the same / type of food over and over gives less and less hunger until you eat something else a few times. Or maybe make it so eating certain cooked meals can give you buffs like an EXP buff , or increased movement speed , increased max health / stamina , more meele damage, etc. . This would allow a Chef/Farmer class to emerge as cooking good meals requires investing into skills / reading chef books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpoon Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 ...Or maybe make it so eating certain cooked meals can give you buffs like an EXP buff , or increased movement speed , increased max health / stamina , more meele damage, etc. . This would allow a Chef/Farmer class to emerge as cooking good meals requires investing into skills / reading chef books. It would be nice if there was some sort of incentive to make more complex meals. In the old wellness system, those sought after Wellness Points always had me cooking stews and and brewing tea. Now there's no incentive to eating anything more complex than boiled eggs, so farmer's have drawn the short straw in A17. I suspect it's been low on their priority list of things they want to tweak, but I have faith that TFP will think of a way to make higher tier food great again before gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieSurvivor Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It feels like the few players that are to lazy to learn how to play a game wants games to be simplified for them. Maybe they should go and stick with *Cough Nintendo Cough* another platform that is geared towards childrens mindset and intelligence. Could you imagine if they tried learning to play Kerbal Space Program, Heat, Conan Exiles, SCUM or Space Engineers there heads would explode. This world is becoming puss*** way to much and intelligence is dropping as a result, or maybe thats because of Fluoride in the water??? lol. This game is not that hard to learn and the UI is not complicated by any means in my opinion. *hears man screaming* *Hey dude your going to start an uprour voicing your opinion*:miserable::upset: *Yells back, whats your point?* *walks off in to the sunset smiling* Quote: "honest conflict has more social value than dishonest harmony" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birkenhoff Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Hmm if the ISS is going back to being simple , and wellness is gone. Maybe we should implement a nutrition system. Where eating the same / type of food over and over gives less and less hunger until you eat something else a few times. Or maybe make it so eating certain cooked meals can give you buffs like an EXP buff , or increased movement speed , increased max health / stamina , more meele damage, etc. . This would allow a Chef/Farmer class to emerge as cooking good meals requires investing into skills / reading chef books. I wouldn't want eating to be a mini game. IMO you can do it the proper way and make it a major gameplay feature like in SCUM or you leave it simple. Everything inbetween is meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieSurvivor Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Next year will be busy! Indeed it will be as PS5 Should be releasing next year EDIT: changed from "is" to "should be". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieSurvivor Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 If people keep asking the same questions, there's a problem with the design Roland..... You ever consider that maybe the players that ask are new to the game??? Its faster to learn a game by asking those who know than it is trying to learn on ones own. just sayin'. I assume there is a steady stream of new players weekly. Every single game, except those which are beyond simple, has players consistently asking for guidance on how to play. If you need proof jump on to forums for most other games. *spoiler alert, you'll find new players asking questions on how the game works since its release* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Indeed it will be as PS5 is releasing next year I'm honestly surprised that the PS5 will be a thing. Lol You know, what with the Cloud Gaming future looming over the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.