madmole Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 MadMole, about those turrets, possibly in the future? would it be difficult to do? and as to the food penalty, it is a decent idea until spoilage can be done. we do need food sinks. You are going to need to post in detail your question, I delete 99% of what I read here after I reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Another milestone towards A18 https://captiongenerator.com/1478762/Hitler-Finds-Out-A18-Was-Delayed Jax cries either way. I thought this was established as lore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 Have y'all fully fleshed out the backstory or is that still a WiP? Its a WIP but I wrote back stories for all the traders and Noah and the Duke a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfbain5 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 You are going to need to post in detail your question, I delete 99% of what I read here after I reply. can you make it that we get more rotations on turrets so that they can be wall mounted or mounted to hang under the ceiling. Similar as to what is in fallout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 can you make it that we get more rotations on turrets so that they can be wall mounted or mounted to hang under the ceiling. Similar as to what is in fallout I'm not sure, gazz might know more. EDIT: If I skip your question its because I don't don't know or don't have the most informed answer usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odetta Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 can you make it that we get more rotations on turrets so that they can be wall mounted or mounted to hang under the ceiling. Similar as to what is in fallout Yes please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Its literally the same thing you are proposing, except instead of earning it over time without dying we are giving it to you for free up front and you re-earn it if you die. The bonus is not having any xp taken away. At the end of the day your method delivers shaky XP numbers and will lead to some min maxing style. There are things that boost XP, like doing quests give you free xp. Drink some Grandpas learn'n elixer and get a huge boost, put on some nerd goggles. I'm old school and feel like punishment is good. I'm not a fan of participation trophies. You got rekt, deal with it. If you don't like it, don't die next time. If the feature is a bomb we'll go back to the drawing board or cut it. On paper it is appealing to us, end of discussion. Until 18 hits the streets no amount of talk will change it. EXACTLY. That is the whole point of the video I was sharing. Basicially in WoW they tried to discourage gamers from playing too long in one sitting (still recommend you watch the whole video! Really really good info), so they descided to give a penalty to players that played too long, going up and up over time. Players HATED this. They felt betrayed by the devs that punish them for playing. So what blizzard did was to switch it 180°. Now you get an offline bonus that slowly decreases over time. The numbers are virtually the same, but it does not feel punishing anymore. Same with your deathpenalty. Reward survival, dont punish death. This is not to combat minmaxers or anything. That was a differnt debate. This was purely to ask you why you don't do it this way. Since the outcome is literally the same (if you tweak the numbers right) but the feeling is a much better one. again, please watch the video... I showed it to roland and he liked it too as far as i remember It explains this idea better than I ever could - - - Updated - - - It sounds like you believe the 25% penalty is applied to XP gains after death, that is not the case. It's a loss of already gained XP, that is all. An action that gives you 20XP before dying will still give you 20XP after dying. If you had, for example, 50% of the XP needed to advance to the next level, and you die, you are now only 25% of the way to the next level. Also, it's been stated that 25% was the value when Madmole posted, and it's not that any more. They're still trying out values for the penalty to see what feels right. I know. This was just a small question why they want to punish the player for dying, when they could simply reward the player for surviving and taking away that reward. Which would be the same, but wouldn't FEEL the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfbain5 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I'm not sure, gazz might know more. EDIT: If I skip your question its because I don't don't know or don't have the most informed answer usually. understood, I actually only thought I got lost in the scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I know. This was just a small question why they want to punish the player for dying, when they could simply reward the player for surviving and taking away that reward. Which would be the same, but wouldn't FEEL the same. Maybe it would fool some people. I don't know. This is on par with charging $199 for some product because it is believed that people won't see this as two hundred dollars. Seen this my whole life and cannot believe that enough people are still fooled by this that they continue this nonsense everywhere you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareee Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 If I'm not mistaken, you can already unlock the turret rotations in xml.. the only problem is then using the camera on them to target them, because its thinking its right side up. Ideally the turret would adjust its camera based on it's bottom orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfbain5 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 If I'm not mistaken, you can already unlock the turret rotations in xml.. the only problem is then using the camera on them to target them, because its thinking its right side up. Ideally the turret would adjust its camera based on it's bottom orientation. currently in green dev notes, it says the targeting math is off unless it is upright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Maybe it would fool some people. I don't know. This is on par with charging $199 for some product because it is believed that people won't see this as two hundred dollars. Seen this my whole life and cannot believe that enough people are still fooled by this that they continue this nonsense everywhere you go. Simple: you know of it, that is why it loses its effect on you (not 100% but a lot compared to the unaware) there are so SO many other marketing tricks that DO work on you and me, because we don't know its a trick. From most expensive food beeing on shoulderheight (only works if you have enough money to not seek out the cheapest food) to where wares are placed (most bought items are the furthest away from the counter so you have to walk through the entire mall to maybe pick up extra stuff or sweets on the counter so that kids that are staying in line for too long start nagging their parents)... there is SO MUCH stuff that unconciously gets you... because we are subconcious beeings. most of our thinking goes on beyond the veil. Our mind is just really REALLY good at making nicely sounding excuses. This is biological/psychological, not something you can be too smart to overcome. You only think it doesnt work because you conciously see what is happening. If you were never told that, this would work on you too (be aware that this doesnt mean people think its only 100$ but it just doesnt seem as much when considering buying it, which is the most important step in this process) So yeah... this definatly DOES work. Punishment ALWAYS hits you harder than reward, even if it is the same outcome. If you for example have a 10% chance of winning 50$ and you don't win it you say "eh it was a low chance anyways" but if everyone gets 50$ and later there is a 90% chance for it to be taken away, it hurts much more. This explains it a bit better. Trust me... you aren't better... just better educated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Survager Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I'll have to pay attention next time I die. I can help you die ... let me go to your server =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 give us the dam update already, been ages Madmole was halfway through the day when he decides to peruse the forums. He goes through the usual garbage where half of us ask for more decoration blocks while the other half asks for some random crap like zips lines or trains or whatever. “Hmm... ‘Ledge grip keys’... no, that’d never work… ‘Prone?’ What is this, Metal Gear Solid? Eh…” and that’s when he saw it. Post #8383. As soon as he read it he knew he had stumbled across something special. He read it, and read it again, cementing the words in his mind, letting the truth of the text fill his soul, already formulating in his mind what would become the riskiest move in Fun Pimps History. “give us the dam update already” Did we not swear to listen to our fans? “been ages” How could we have disappointed them so? Have we lost sight of our vision, of who we were to become?! There was one way to fix this but it had to be done fast. Madmole leaps to his feet, nearly knocking over his triple XXL super double glug limited edition sized coffee in the process, and launches himself into a nearby room of colleagues. His sudden entrance gave him the workspaces’ attention. Met with confused stares, he wastes no time in announcing, “Stop. All. The things.” The workers do stop, but only to improve their staring posture. Now being met by increasingly bewildered looks, Madmole took initiative. He goes to the nearest desk and sweeps everything off, sending mouse, keyboard and monitor flying furiously. “Today, damnit, we release alpha 18 TODAY. Damn the schedule.” A man braver than the rests rises. “But Madmole, releasing an incomplete product at the behest of our tech illiterate juvenile fanbase would only leave us with a rushed inferior product which would slander our good name while simultaneously pissing off those very people we were trying to pleas-“ He never finished that sentence. Or the one after it. What the man had in bravery he lacked in spatial awareness, considering he never did see Madmoles punch. He did however notice the hole he made as he flew out of the office building, and he saw the funny way the air rippled as he passed the stratosphere and entered into orbit in outer space. Madmole hardly pauses to look at the carnage. “Alpha 18. Now. Anybody else have counter arguments?” This time a woman rose. Silently she walked up past Madmole to a giant framed button on the wall. ‘BREAK ONLY IN CASE OF ORBITAL DEPARTURE / EARLY ALPHA 18 RELEASE’. With a sigh she grabs the tiny hammer, breaks the glass, and presses the button. Millions of clients across the globe get a popup on their machines, ‘An Update is Ready to Download’. Madmole cries for joy, woman gets promoted to Chief Releaser of Alphas, the man fist bumps Voyager, but most importantly, somewhere out there, blackice2142 was gaming on. Originally Posted by blackice2142. Alpha-10. Edited by Sillls Also edited by Magikarp; 11-13-2014 at 05:51 PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 .... I understand the supposed science behind these things, I'm just saying that I don't believe how effective it is to try to take advantage of it long term. Even if you maintained a psychological stance on game design, there is still something that is not considered in this. There are people playing this game who want the punishment because right now it is all about reward. Reward is good, but punishment can be too. I can also use psychology to argue for that stance. First I will say that just rewarding everything in an environment with zero punishment is not that effective. The chance for reward is almost always better. There isn't just evidence of this in people, but in animals as well. The bottle that spits out a treat occasionally will be visited more than the bottle that spits out reward constantly. The kicks in rather quickly in this game since so much provides constant reward as is. In a survival game, your motivation to survive should be a constant, but right now it isn't. Your motivation to play, aka survive, diminishes along with the diminishing value of the rewards because that's all there is. This could be the reason why so many people play this game less than 20 hours. Players want an impending doom, a will to survive, a reason to play. You bring up risk aversion, but how does that even relate to a situation where you are expecting risk the moment you launch the game? How does that even apply to the current state of the game in which the risk is ridiculously minuscule? This death penalty is a constant and I find it fitting for a survival game. Staying alive is the best intrinsic motivator that keeps you playing. Dead is dead is the ultimate experience in this regard and I understand not everybody likes to play that way... but at least some element of punishment for death should exist in order to justify the survival tag and to push that motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecv Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Its literally the same thing you are proposing, except instead of earning it over time without dying we are giving it to you for free up front and you re-earn it if you die. The bonus is not having any xp taken away. At the end of the day your method delivers shaky XP numbers and will lead to some min maxing style. There are things that boost XP, like doing quests give you free xp. Drink some Grandpas learn'n elixer and get a huge boost, put on some nerd goggles. I'm old school and feel like punishment is good. I'm not a fan of participation trophies. You got rekt, deal with it. If you don't like it, don't die next time. If the feature is a bomb we'll go back to the drawing board or cut it. On paper it is appealing to us, end of discussion. Until 18 hits the streets no amount of talk will change it. Uhh, this could also be interesting for stamina and health, only showing when in the negative, and as a up front bonus, you'll never see them if you treat yourself right. One might even have to find out what right is for a particular playstyle That could raise immersion I'd say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Corvid Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I think it is the best system so far. Before people would suicide just to teleport or get rid of infection or broken leg or low hunger. Now, they might think twice at least, or pay for it in a tangible meaningful way, and it doesn't weaken them further, so this is the best design. The A17 system encouraged doing unsafe activities or going AFK, the A16 wellness system weakened you and took too long to restore and promoted death loop. I understand death as a feedback system telling players their current decisions aren't working out. For example: One death: "Hey, you made a mistake."Two deaths (consecutive): "You might want to change your approach."Three or more (consecutive): "Slow down and think about how you got here." The upcoming system fits with teaching players to reevaluate their actions, examine what they've learned in the past, and prompts them to apply that knowledge going forward. I don't see it as any different than players dying repeatedly when trying to tackle content they aren't prepared for. Importantly, (and this is an assumption) it will prevent the gamestage from progressing for players who aren't ready for a greater challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted August 8, 2019 Author Share Posted August 8, 2019 give us the dam update already, been ages Madmole was halfway through the day when he decides to peruse the forums. Snip Ah the good ol' days when you could just punch people and throw fridges and get what you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe13 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I think there was a discussion a while back, but I missed the conclusion.....what's the word on FOV options for A18 and beyond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrough Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Its already random. All loot boxes are randomly open or closed versions. I didn't pose my question clearly enough to express my idea, but your answer kind of gets at what I was aiming for which is variety in POIs. What I had in mind when I asked is if it's possible to store and load POIs such that the exterior is a sort of shell with the interior chosen randomly from several different dungeon crawl routes designed by the level creators. I understand that POIs are stored and loaded as a single piece, so maybe this belongs more in Pimp Dreams, but the thought occurred to me while we were discussing 'payouts' of POIs and fun factor. Example: two identical POIs in one RWG town, but 1 loaded with interior A and 1 with interior B. Perhaps each one has a different route to take in clearing it out with different layouts, decor, sleeper spots and so on. Also, upon initiating a quest at a POI, it reloads and this time a different interior is randomly chosen than the one loaded before the resetting action. I hope I made this more clear. I get this is just a pipe dream and I definitely am familiar with the pipe and the dreaming. I guess I am really just curious as to whether or not the code can support this sort of 2-part POI, either only in generation or also when resetting for quests. give us the dam update already, been ages I saw the first line and thought "this seems a little out of character of this guy..." I think I missed the original post, but I see now and, boy, did I enjoy that read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I think there was a discussion a while back, but I missed the conclusion.....what's the word on FOV options for A18 and beyond? For A18, you’ll have to continue to change it using the console command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archergod Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 friendly challenge for Kage (or others if they wish)... forget about A17 and what you used to do.... Welcome to A18, get yourself to an appropriate level (you'll know when it is if you're not dieing a lot) and get damn good gear and weapons, buy or find some useful mods and perk where the points will help you the most. have some food/water and firstaid with you... you most likely will find food on the way. IF you go to a t5 poi and you're only ready for t2-3, then be prepared to fail. remember... gamestage will affect the types of zombies you meet and the loot.. BUT a t5 IS NOT MEANT for low level players or newbies... (that is not meant as an insult to anyone). so my challenge is... do this and then let us know here in forum how you made out... also... we testers have already and currently test this... also... we dont use external mods nor do we mod any xmls, our games are default. now if you want fun and can manage it... then a team of 5 players will make a world of difference (if all are equal). so again... actually look at this as a dare to actually enjoy it. but the team does want to hear how the runs went. Challenge accepted, please give access to A18...lol who cares if I win or fail, I at least get early access.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odetta Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Challenge accepted, please give access to A18...lol who cares if I win or fail, I at least get early access.. This is off topic but, is this game available in China at all? With their strict guidelines I can't imagine so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 [...] [...] Damn it, I'd love to chime in on this but will be late for work. Coercion, punishment, negative and positive reinforcement all have their place and their uses. You can design some reinforcement types differently for a more positive outlook, but there is no going around that. Even WoW, a casual mmo, contains all of them (negative r. - "get out of the fire", punishment - gold lost on death for repairs) and their ratio is heavily dependent on genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum123456789 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 I don't understand the arguments here. Am I right in saying: Tin is saying it's a better balanced death penalty because it hurts the higher level player enough to be an issue, whereas it doesn't affect the lower level player as much because they can still do what they did before, and could just hang out with others to gain their XP back more quickly Meganoth is saying players should be careful all of the time. ...y'all aren't even having the same discussion. there seems to be lots of disagreements and arguing at the moment don't really like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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