Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[JaxTeller718]

That is reason, good job.

 

You say "without having to do specific grind tasks", except you are still doing specific grind tasks. That has not changed. The difference is your grind tasks have been reduced and regulated to a couple things instead of a variety. You get less reward for doing more limited tasks. I didnt mind the system at first either, it was fun doing the first couple playthroughs. After that the limitations and blandness start to shine.

 

As far a "auto-level designs", never heard of it. Maybe give an example. But either way, to me it doesnt seem to me that LBD is even related to that, and the new system seems more auto since you dont have to actually preform a task to become a master at it. So, Ill pass on commenting further on your last paragraph.

 

This is also known as "I dont want to kill zombies to level my shotgun so ill mine all night to buy the shotgun perk"

 

Thats the only benefit to Perks. It takes away the need to actually do anything to make that skill better. So zombie grinding gets you a perk for getting more wood etc.

[PoppaTot]

More freedom to shape your character without having to "craft 1000 stone axes" or "stand on a cactus". It just feels better.

 

Cheers

 

I enjoy both systems, LBD more so than the current, but I always laugh when someone says this. It's a lazy argument. You never once HAD to do either of those. I've maxed my character in those specific categories and never once had to "craft 1000 stone axes" or "stand on a cactus". I may have accidentally stood on a cactus or two and felt like a dummy.

 

Point being, you chose to do those exploits instead of letting level organically because you (not necessarily you, but anyone who did it) were either, lazy, impatient, or both lol.

[JaxTeller718]

With the big difference that i /had/ to do it to level up. I like it more to do whatever i want and spend the points into the attributes i need at a specific time to make my character "smarter", "stronger", "more perceptive" etc and then choose which perks i want to level. So i like the current system more than LBD. More freedom to shape your character without having to "craft 1000 stone axes" or "stand on a cactus". It just feels better.

 

Cheers

 

It doesnt feel better. They just took away the work you had to do to spam craft. Instead of crafting 1000 axes now you just afk mine all night and you get the same spam tactic.

 

Dont act like this Perk system is revolutionary. It isnt. It takes the actual grind out of spam levelling things and rewards those SAME players by allowing them to do such things as chop trees to level their health and weapons.

 

And myself nor anyone I played with ever used spam anything. I made a tool, it wore down I made a new one. Rinse repeat. Choice was yours to huddle in a corner and spam axes.

[Guppycur]

Bottom line, is they never did perks/skills right. Ever.

 

Yes, spamcrafting 1000 stone axes increased your ability to make a better stone axe (made total sense) but also allowed you to buy concrete (was totally stupid), so instead of just removing the ability to buy concrete if you spam stone axes, they eliminate the entire thing. Why?

 

All they've done is eliminate the bad AND the good part of that system. Now, as Jax has pointed out, just mine or chop trees. What's the differences, except that you no longer even have the good part of the system (leveling up by doing)?

[Prisma501]

I enjoy both systems, LBD more so than the current, but I always laugh when someone says this. It's a lazy argument. You never once wanter HAD to do either of those. I've maxed my character in those specific categories and never once had to "craft 1000 stone axes" or "stand on a cactus". I may have accidentally stood on a cactus or two and felt like a dummy.

 

Point being, you chose to do those exploits instead of letting level organically because you (not necessarily you, but anyone who did it) were either, lazy, impatient, or both lol.

 

Yeh bad examples, but mostly used by the min/maxers "defending" the old LBD. Im not playing min/max. But my point is, i really really dont care to get XP from whatever activity i do and distribute it to completely unrelated attributes/perks (i like it even). The categorizing in "strong", "smart", "perceptive" seem quiet logical to me too. LBD feels less free to me in that context.

 

Cheers

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

It doesnt feel better. They just took away the work you had to do to spam craft. Instead of crafting 1000 axes now you just afk mine all night and you get the same spam tactic.

 

Dont act like this Perk system is revolutionary. It isnt. It takes the actual grind out of spam levelling things and rewards those SAME players by allowing them to do such things as chop trees to level their health and weapons.

 

And myself nor anyone I played with ever used spam anything. I made a tool, it wore down I made a new one. Rinse repeat. Choice was yours to huddle in a corner and spam axes.

 

Would you mind NOT telling me what feels better to me. Thanks mate!

 

Cheers

[fragtzack]

Appreciate all the efforts you put into Ravenhearst. There was quite a bit in Ravenhearst I didn't agree with. Certainly don't remember coming into the Ravenhearst forum posts and making personal attacks on the developer of Ravenhearst because of some of the aspects I thought were bad with Ravenhearts. I knew it was your baby, your choices and your modded game. So it was all good.

 

Yet..

 

Yet the developer of Ravenhearst is on a very personal crusade against a17 because only his way is the right way.

 

Really sad Mr. Teller.

[Maynard69]

With the big difference that i /had/ to do it to level up. I like it more to do whatever i want and spend the points into the attributes i need at a specific time to make my character "smarter", "stronger", "more perceptive" etc and then choose which perks i want to level. So i like the current system more than LBD. More freedom to shape your character without having to "craft 1000 stone axes" or "stand on a cactus". It just feels better.

 

Cheers

 

Those LBD activites were never things you had to go do exclusively. You could "stand on a cactus" while gathering aloe and making bandages for science/medicine and searching birdsnests and trash for scavenging, and crafting them into arrows for weaponsmithing. They intermingled well with each other imo.

 

When playing on extreme difficulties it was nice to have something to do at your base when you didnt feel like risking being out in the wild. (stone axes, anvils, mining ect.) It gave additional incentive do a variety of activities with a purpose no matter where you were or what you were doing.

 

With the current system, it gives you incentive only get xp and reach the next unlock. Sorry but to me that is bland in comparison. But, ya its in, its probably not gonna change. I am more hoping that TFP's hear all the complaints and manage to bring back the flavor the game had before, rather than hoping they bring back LBD. (somehow, if possible...)

 

Simply because the I think the task would be too monumental to actually change back when you consider the other stuff they changed.

 

Couple that with the fact we dont have to chase "loot only" items much anymore (crafting all guns and power tools) makes me feel like everything is going in the wrong direction. Finding awesome stuff you couldnt get anywhere else was such a good aspect of looting in this game.

 

Now, there is not much incentive to do anything but farm XP. Hopefully that will change when have more pieces of paper to loot for mods, legendary items ect. (but that hope is wearing thin the more I think about it)

[Prisma501]

Gawd dayum. Exactly as i predicted. "We need arguments why you like it!". Giving my gawd dayum personal opinion on it and here we are people telling me how to feel and arguing to dont like the things i like. Go figure. Good luck getting TFP to change anything you dont like. I sure as hell dont have to.

 

Cheers

 

-edit- ai we were typing post at same time Maynard69. This wasnt directed at your post above mine.The elitists on the other hand...

[meganoth]

That is reason, good job.

 

You say "without having to do specific grind tasks", except you are still doing specific grind tasks. That has not changed. The difference is your grind tasks have been reduced and regulated to a couple things instead of a variety. You get less reward for doing more limited tasks. I didnt mind the system at first either, it was fun doing the first couple playthroughs. After that the limitations and blandness start to shine.

 

Reduced or just less? As far as I know you still get xp for any task you that you got xp in A16. It may not be balanced atm, but I always said there needs to be more balancing done here. If someone wants to build a gigantic garden and get xp from that, well, good for him. In keeping with the general design probably planting should generate "heat" for screamers or gardens should be a target (albeit very low on the list) for zombies.

 

As far a "auto-level designs", never heard of it. Maybe give an example. But either way, to me it doesnt seem to me that LBD is even related to that, and the new system seems more auto since you dont have to actually preform a task to become a master at it. So, Ill pass on commenting further on your last paragraph.

 

Some RPGs either have that as an option and/or do it for companions. Examples are Dragon Age Origins, Knights of the old Republic, Mass Effect, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Final Fantasy, Divinity: Original Sin 2.

[RestInPieces]

Yes, spamcrafting 1000 stone axes increased your ability to make a better stone axe (made total sense)

 

Well recipe-specific diminishing returns (that could get replenished overtime), would make even more sense, since, at some point after enough practice, you learn progressively less or there is simply nothing left to learn. Anyway, they did consider "fixing" A16 at some point, but I don't know why they decided against it.

 

a very personal crusade against a17

 

Afaik none is against A17 as a whole. Most people just prefer specific elements. And as long as anyone supports their points with arguments/common sense, there's nothing wrong with it.

 

It gave additional incentive do a variety of activities...

With the current system, it gives you incentive only get xp

 

And to get exp people tend to choose the single most efficient activity. Yes, that's the reason A17 is seen as more linear. Nothing surprising there. I don't get how some people are surprised that others consider A17 as more "linear". Can they not understand this simple concept? Aren't they bored of being surprised every time someone joins these forums and complains about "linear", "grinding" etc?

[Maynard69]

This is also known as "I dont want to kill zombies to level my shotgun so ill mine all night to buy the shotgun perk"

 

Thats the only benefit to Perks. It takes away the need to actually do anything to make that skill better. So zombie grinding gets you a perk for getting more wood etc.

 

Funny thing is they could level their shotgun skills by doing the final hit on rock with their gun while mining. Gun skills actually went up pretty fast by mining with LBD

 

A little known fact, that might not help my cause but oh well. It was probably an exploit, but it was a good workaround for not having to kill millions of z's to get your last 30 levels of a gun skill.

[Maynard69]

Reduced or just less? As far as I know you still get xp for any task you that you got xp in A16. .

 

I am refering to the activities we could do in LBD to get "skillups" You could have skillups or xp as a goal. Not just xp.

You could do activites that might not get you XP but you still progressed.

 

Yes you still get xp for most everything. But you only get skillups from XP.

[RestInPieces]

It may not be balanced atm, but I always said there needs to be more balancing done here.

 

Ofc, if they keep the A17 system as it is, they have to balance it as much as possible. If they don't, Roland will be doomed trying to convince everyone to play more organically for eternity. And in the general concept of things, they have to balance activities to give xp for time spent - not block damage etc.

[Aldranon]

I like Rolands idea of getting trained by the trader for doing quests for them. ***No exp.*** So any perk can be trained each perk having different costs. That or each quest type can only add to certain perks. (IE Retrieve quests are for Perception and Intelligence perks)

 

For Attributes, each day you get a point and over time so you build up the character that way.

 

Spitballing. On the wrong thread even.

[meganoth]

You could do activites that might not get you XP but you still progressed.

 

Care to give an example? I thought whatever skill xp you got always gave general xp as well

[Maynard69]

Care to give an example? I thought whatever skill xp you got always gave general xp as well

 

Making blood bags, using bandages, getting damaged, breaking a rock by shooting it, hitting a zombie, running, ect all gave skill but not xp.

 

Some things gave minuscule xp but chance for skill up like Looting something, crafting, ect.

 

Like I said it gave incentive to use stuff and do varied activities, unlike currently. Some items lost alot of player value, and gameplay feels more linear as a result of the change as well.

[hotpoon]

Appreciate all the efforts you put into Ravenhearst. There was quite a bit in Ravenhearst I didn't agree with. Certainly don't remember coming into the Ravenhearst forum posts and making personal attacks on the developer of Ravenhearst because of some of the aspects I thought were bad with Ravenhearts. I knew it was your baby, your choices and your modded game. So it was all good.

 

Yet..

 

Yet the developer of Ravenhearst is on a very personal crusade against a17 because only his way is the right way.

 

Really sad Mr. Teller.

 

JaxTeller, Cirion, Maynard, and many other people have articulated the problems with the latest A17 extremely clearly, politely, and in detail. So many times, I've wished this forum had 'like buttons' on the posts because I feel exactly the same way, and they take the words right out of my mouth.

 

It is not a personal attack on the developer, but even if it was, your comparison is asinine because Ravenhearst is free, so what kind of person goes to complain about a free mod? However, complaining about a game we bought in early access that was heading in one direction, and then significantly changes, is well within our right as consumers.

[katarynna]

Ya, mostly the same 20 people vs mostly the same 4 people defending it. I have yet to hear any actual reason or facts from the people defending the perk system. Their main argument is that the system is similar in the way that we perk up. You actually never see "The new perk system is good because --blank--" It is always "I am still enjoying a17" or "It is good" those are not reasons or facts supporting it..

 

I enjoyed a16 and did not mind that system (hated a15 spam crafting though).

 

I prefer a17 perks though.

 

I don't NEED to specifically grind up construction tools for example. Two days before horde night if I was close to getting concrete before horde night, I would sometimes upgrade and break frames just to get that level up in a16. That felt stupid and no fun, but I did it anyways because I was soooo close to concrete but didn't quite have construction tools high enough to buy it because it took longer to find a wrench that playthrough and I used the stone axe (mining tool exp) for most of my base building.

 

In a17, I play organically and with no thought to exp. If I need more mats for my forge, I gather mats. If horde night is close, I make sure my base is ready. If I need gas for my auger, I go wrench cars. If there is nothing pressing, I clear poi's or do trader quests, or just explore and do whatever comes to mind based on what I find.

 

No matter what I do, I get experience. I could level faster if I focused on exp, sure. But I don't NEED the extra exp enough to feel compelled to do things I don't WANT to do at that time. For me personally, the balance is good enough that I don't feel like I'm wasting time if I loot poi's on day 5 instead of upgrading/destroying frames over and over to get concrete.

 

The addition of harvestable concrete/cobblestone plus the addition of resource mats to traders helps a lot too ( although I personally have never yet found stone at the trader *please add*).

 

I have started maybe 12-15 new games in a17. I have not yet felt compelled to spend my points the same way. I do always get 2 strength/packmule because I hate encumbrance, but that is literally the only thing I do the same.

 

Once I built in the desert. For that playthrough, the hot/cold resistance perk was priority. Never used it in any other playthrough. If I find a hoe early, gardening perk is early priority. I always have a forge before level 20, but I don't think I have ever had it at 10. My current playthrough I got a forge at level 18.

 

If I level up while mining, I'll put a point into decreased melee tool/weapon stamina usage if I have an iron pick axe but am mining with a stone axe due to stamina issues. If I level up while running through a desert where I am harvesting aloe as I go, I will put that point into being able to craft first aid bandages. I feel much freer to spend points on what I need "right now" because there is no grinding for me. I do what I need/want to do to survive in the way that feels right for me, instead of having to grind construction tools or grind mining tools or w/e.

 

In a16, I usually had a forge day 1, and no later than day 2. I don't miss it in a17 because, for me at least, finding iron and steel tools is much much more common. I prioritize finding or buying 5-10 forged iron and steel asap for tool repairs and I am all set.

 

Workstations are much more common in random poi's so harvesting forged iron for repairs is easy. Steel is a bit harder, so I do rely on the trader for that.

 

Actually the only real issue I have is with hoes. For me, those are much rarer to loot than fire axes, pick axes, shovels and wrenches. And I do really like a garden asap, even if it is small.

 

Hopefully this at least makes some sense to the people who can't fathom why anyone would prefer 17 to 16. Of course everyone plays differently and finds different things fun, so I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to explain how i play and why a17 is more enjoyable for me personally since some people have asked.

[Cirion]

After I had a heart-to-heart with myself I think I realized my main problem with the A17 perk system is the implementation of it, not the theory of such a system in-and-of-itself. Much like how I believe most people who hated A16 LBD, think they hate LBD, when in reality, they hate the implementation of it. Does that make sense? It is unfair for example to say you have to grind armor skills by hugging a cactus and then saying LBD sucks. Certainly, this is a good example why A16's implementation of LBD sucks! But, there is more than one way to do it.

 

Basically I think

 

- A16 LBD system could have been way better (not gonna rehash points here)

 

similarily

 

- if A17 system is made way better (I'm not gonna rehash points either that I made in another threads, read those for ideas I had), then I might actually almost like it

 

Either way, I feel like there is much improvement that can be made that will make hopefully from 50% of people who like either system to a solid 80-90%. Yeah there will always be someone who hates it but I think we can improve it. We all like this game, let's make it the best it can be

 

The point is, whatever system they choose to go with, whether its LBD or current system, as long as they do an awesome job with it, I'll probably be reasonably happy with it.

[OzHawkeye]

The point is, whatever system they choose to go with, whether its LBD or current system, as long as they do an awesome job with it, I'll probably be reasonably happy with it.

 

Similar to my own view. I'll always instinctively prefer LBD, because it seems more logical to me to level my archery skill (for example) by actually using it. That said, I wasn't a fan of spam crafting (but I think removing skill leveling from crafting could have largely solved that in league with boosting the skill gain from usage).

 

The perk system, even if not exactly my cup of tea, isn't going to come within a mile of stopping me from playing altogether (waiting on RWG to be fixed has done that anyway...hehe), but I also hope if TFP sticks with this system, that they continue to work on improving it.

[JaxTeller718]

Appreciate all the efforts you put into Ravenhearst. There was quite a bit in Ravenhearst I didn't agree with. Certainly don't remember coming into the Ravenhearst forum posts and making personal attacks on the developer of Ravenhearst because of some of the aspects I thought were bad with Ravenhearts. I knew it was your baby, your choices and your modded game. So it was all good.

 

Yet..

 

Yet the developer of Ravenhearst is on a very personal crusade against a17 because only his way is the right way.

 

Really sad Mr. Teller.

 

Not a personal crusade. I know what I like and I champion for it. Some call it passion, others may call it trolling. I don't ever tend to troll, maybe i'm just too passionate about my beliefs.

 

What I am curious about is why you think I'm not allowed to have my own opinion on things? Because I have created a successful mod? I have no sway with anyone in here on that team. All I can do is state what I like for myself. If Pimps never do it thats cool. They never have to listen to any one individual. Its their game and i know this and i stress this all the time. I don't HAVE to like the changes, but I respect them as developers to do whatever they want with it.

 

What I find more interesting is why my opinion is usually taken as being so personal. Is it because I'm in the camp for a harder game with more fulfilling rewards, longer progression and more content? That's a play style. My own personal style. Is anyone here some kind of public advocate for certain groups of players? I thought we were ALL here to express our opinions and debate topics. Or are we just supposed to fall in line and debate approved topics?

 

I can have love and respect for the game and team while ALSO disagreeing with their choices. Its called being a multidimensional person. There IS a line between White Knight and Hating Troll.

 

For whatever you think of me I would STILL be at the front line advertising this game and fully recommending it to anyone and everyone. There's no crusade. I'd never leave a negative review or anything stupid like that.

 

If I was truly on a personal crusade I wouldn't have made Ravenhearst, a mod which for all intents and purposes HELPS A17 because it will get people to play it more and log back in, as many have told me they did in my Discord. I can easily go to Project Zomboid and do work there.

 

Also please point out where I have personally attacked ANY member of the Development Team. I have tremendous respect for Joel and company. Always have and always will. But i also bought an EA title and as such have a right to comment on the direction it is heading.

[AtomicUs5000]

The thread has gone off course a little. It has turned from figuring out why nobody is watching or why the people playing have given up on streaming or recording to the things people dislike playing it. There are still a lot of people playing, but a lot less people watching or recording than in previous alphas at this time after initial launch.

 

These things are of course related, but nobody is describing how they might be linked to each other when listing their dislikes.

[PoppaTot]

These things are of course related, but nobody is describing how they might be linked to each other when listing their dislikes.

 

Honest opinion, A17 is not stable so some tend to stay away. Some streamers are sick resetting. Some viewers are sick of the same builds over and over again just exploiting pathing. Some streamers are waiting for RWG to be fixed, others are waiting for pathing to be fixed. Some are waiting for overhaul mods. Some are sick of the game all together. The list could go on and on. I think everyone has their own reason for not playing or watching at this point. Some may be similiar to others, some good, some bad.

 

I don't think Twitch concurrent viewer numbers will be a relevant factor on the success or failure of A17 until stable comes out and TFP announce that it's the last patch before A18.

[Lanadon Conners]

Personally I watch "Streamers" to get an idea of how other players are tackling certain "obstacles" (Quests, POIs, Building bases ect.. )

 

With the announcement of the Zombie AI upgrade being temp to test the incoming Bandits npcs, an acknowledgement of the RWG being "Borked", Currect Mod'ers still questioning how future changes will affect their mods, and no clear cut Viable, obvious base construction, I am preferring to just "Play" rather than watch someone else.

 

 

When A18 hits, I will return to searching the Streams for players who can answer those questions for me or help me find an easier way to find the answers on my own

[DaVegaNL]

Ya, mostly the same 20 people vs mostly the same 4 people defending it. I have yet to hear any actual reason or facts from the people defending the perk system. Their main argument is that the system is similar in the way that we perk up. You actually never see "The new perk system is good because --blank--" It is always "I am still enjoying a17" or "It is good" those are not reasons or facts supporting it..

 

Try this; I like the perk-system in A17 because I have a feeling of accomplishment when I spent a skill point. I have the felling that I can specialize myself. I didn't have any of that in the A16 system, which was a mess in my opinion.