Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[Roland]

Fair enough, but should we just ignore all the people who now don't like this system?

 

Nobody is being ignored. There have been lots of changes since 17.0 and there are likely going to be more. Also, not obeying the will of the complainers is not the same thing as ignoring them. Their desires for LBD have been heard and considered. Time will tell whether TFP decides to make compromises in that direction or not. But they haven't ignored those requests.

 

I understand that speeding through the progression and enjoying a system where you get better at something by doing that action are two separate issues. I know that there is enjoyment and rewarding feelings from seeing the skills progress through whatever skill you are practicing. I would not be opposed to a return of that system. I am not defending the new system at the expense of the old whatever you might believe. I can happily play organically under both systems.

 

My defensive stance has consistently been that the new system is also a legitimate and fun system for many people just as the last system was. I disagree strongly that the game is now predetermined and linear and I see the style of play that would lead to always doing the same exact things at the exact same time and exact same level as being extreme and not indicative of the majority of players. I understand that any system is not going to be fun for some but fun for others.

 

I do understand what you mean by being able to get started on improvement in specific skills from Day 1 by seeing that skill bar start progressing as you performed those actions. The difference that I see is that with LBD you are spending the xp as you earn it. You loot and earn xp and it gets dumped immediately into the looting skill. In the current system you are looting and you gain xp into a central pool until it culminates into a point that can then be spent on....whatever you want. Some see the immediate and automatic spending of the xp in the specific area as more fun and others see the saving up of the xp and conversion of it into a point that can be spent however they wish as more fun. Others are happy with both.

 

Maybe it isn't that people aren't understanding you. Maybe they do understand and they STILL find their fun in an alternate fashion. The problem with some of the complainers is they are under the misguided opinion that those who don't believe as they do must be 1) stupid 2) fanbois 3) lazy 4) unable to understand the positive aspects of LBD 5) All of the above.

 

Again, I wouldn't be upset in the least if they added the skills back in and made them LBD. I would be overjoyed to not have to mod out the level gates. I'm not fighting against those ideas. I'm pushing back against the narrative being pushed that the entire playerbase is against A17 and that the game is going down the tubes because of A17.

[Ghostlight]

There are more than enough posts stating they hated the grind that came with it. Including me.

 

A16 never felt like a grind to me. I just did what I needed to do in the game organically and hardly even noticed Level ups and experience. It just all clicked (apart from the odd weird one like Armour, but that could easily have been tweaked). IN A17, yup it's grind because I am always thinking....I need a vehicle, 2 levels away...let's go out and do the most efficient XP gain yo get there asap, even if it's a task I do not currently feel I need to do; it's just more efficient. Now that is a grind.

 

 

 

You get smarter -> you can outsmart a trader (better barter). You get healthier -> you can swim longer and hold your breath longer. etc

 

But how do I get smarter? I get smarter by hitting rocks / killing zombies / opening trash bags / etc. Parp.

[Guppycur]

@Roland: No doubt it's a personal preference issue... some people like to earn perks/skills by doing, others like to buy them. That's not in question (I don't think);

 

*I* believe the issue is the /reasoning/ for the change; or at least the given reasoning.

 

"It allows for more and different play styles".

 

That's total bullpoop, and it's a lie that needs to stop.

 

Do that, and just say "We went this route, we ain't changing" without making the boldfaced LIE that it offers more than the previous, and these arguments will simmer down. I pinky promise.

 

Now, if you want to debate whether or not it allows for more, I'm happy to oblige, but I promise you, I'll win. =)

[Prisma501]

A16 never felt like a grind to me. I just did what I needed to do in the game organically and hardly even noticed Level ups and experience. It just all clicked (apart from the odd weird one like Armour, but that could easily have been tweaked). IN A17, yup it's grind because I am always thinking....I need a vehicle, 2 levels away...let's go out and do the most efficient XP gain yo get there asap, even if it's a task I do not currently feel I need to do; it's just more efficient. Now that is a grind.

 

 

 

 

 

But how do I get smarter? I get smarter by hitting rocks / killing zombies / opening trash bags / etc. Parp.

 

Maybe its because i play the other way around. When i have points to spend i will decide what i need (can afford) at that moment. No efficient i need this and that now and how to get to points for it. If my character has evolved by spending my points and its good enough to unlock a vehicle i will if i choose too (or not, choices are still there). Im not working towards it. But i can imagine if you play like that it feels grindy (but tbh thats a choice).

 

Cheers

[Prisma501]

 

But how do I get smarter? I get smarter by hitting rocks / killing zombies / opening trash bags / etc. Parp.

 

By spending points on intellect obviously.

 

Cheers

[PoppaTot]

By spending points on intellect obviously.

 

Cheers

 

lul, you played right into his argument. Wait for it. Something tells me you did it on purpose though. You two go round and round with everyone lol.

[Prisma501]

lul, you played right into his argument. Wait for it. Something tells me you did it on purpose though. You two go round and round with everyone lol.

 

The difference between us is, that i dont mind gathering points with whatever and spending them on whatever (i like it even, always have said this). He does. There is no winning or losing here. Its as simple as he cant understand why i not hate that (like it) and i can understand why he hates it. But i will not start to hate it because he does. Easy peasy.

 

Cheers

 

-edit- what im actually waiting for is for him to start calling me lazy or an idiot or a player that has not played the game enough or not started over enough, but thats another (sad) story.

[Cirion]

Nobody is being ignored.

 

-> Made good case that current system is not even meeting the goals of devs (Specialization).

-> Made good case that current system is not as "free" as people think the word freedom means

-> Made good case that in current system you CAN (and many people do) master a single skill in a few days to a week (usually combat) so if Dev's goal is for this NOT to happen, they have failed

I am not necessarily saying any of the three above should be changed or trying to impose my will (I think they should) but there is no acknowledgement of said points. I am saying the dev's goals seem inconsistent.That is all I am saying. To be sure that does kinda sound like I want them to change (and I do), but primarily I am just pointing out logical fallacies.

 

It's my INTJ brain in action again. Lol.

 

My defensive stance has consistently been that the new system is also a legitimate and fun system for many people just as the last system was. I disagree strongly that the game is now predetermined and linear and I see the style of play that would lead to always doing the same exact things at the exact same time and exact same level as being extreme and not indicative of the majority of players. I understand that any system is not going to be fun for some but fun for others.

 

Given that both mining and combat are now the only two ways to play to get EXP, people are only going to specialize in one or the other. Usually. Since everything is now under one exp pool, EXP is king since it buys EVERYTHING. You are right though no one is FORCING you to do that. I agree with that. However the average player is gonna be looking at skills be like..."Hey, I'd like to get X perk... OK I need 10 level ups... OK I need/want a bunch of EXP.... what to do? Zombie killing? OK!!"

 

Plus the fact that only ZOMBIE EXP is shared in a group. Guess what that will do when in a group? Encourage people to KILL ZOMBIES only for exp.

 

I have seen your other posts though that you wanna do away with EXP entirely. So I know I'm not entirely barking up the wrong tree here. I am (personally) bored though with A17 since it either feels like Call of Duty zombies or mining simulator 2019. I know many people love CoD though (after it all remains one of the most popular games of all time). It's just not my cup of tea.

 

Maybe it isn't that people aren't understanding you. Maybe they do understand and they STILL find their fun in an alternate fashion. The problem with some of the complainers is they are under the misguided opinion that those who don't believe as they do must be 1) stupid 2) fanbois 3) lazy 4) unable to understand the positive aspects of LBD 5) All of the above.

 

See my points mentioned at the start of my post. I have yet to see good refutation. And I did not even use the word LBD once in my post (except here)

 

I am in no way arguing people find fun in different ways. What I am saying is that people are kidding themselves if they think there is freedom in this system or that it changes anything about meta grinding or the time to grind things...etc... the only reason people can not get forges by day 4 now is because of the level gates in INT. remove that and now you can. So, nothing has changed overall.

[Laz Man]

Sorry, but no.

 

There will always be a "most efficient path" to play no matter what system is used. In A16 there was a most efficient way to play, in A17 there is a most efficient path to play. There will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, be a "meta", a most efficient path to play.

 

The difference is, back in A16, the meta and most efficient path was muddy, not clear, even taking the "most efficient way to play", you still didn't know when you'd get the minibike book, even if you played the same way every time for example. In addition, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have mentioned previously that many skills are deadlocked behind spending 23 points (or 23 level ups) before you can master it.

 

It all depends what your goals are in the game. If your goal is to attain a certain skill by a certain day, perhaps there is only one "efficient" path. When I play, I usually only plan my activities just a few steps ahead and try to play organically.

[Cirion]

It all depends what your goals are in the game. If your goal is to attain a certain skill by a certain day, perhaps there is only one "efficient" path. When I play, I usually only plan my activities just a few steps ahead and try to play organically.

 

With more thought, I am actually surprised organic players enjoy the exp system at all (I guess that explains why Roland does not like it?)

 

There is one or two guys on the steam forums that only will play the really older alphas like 10 where EXP was not even a thing. As they wanna build from day 1. Now THAT'S freedom, even more so than the systems I have proposed in a few threads.

[SnowDog1942]

Nobody is being ignored. There have been lots of changes since 17.0 and there are likely going to be more. Also, not obeying the will of the complainers is not the same thing as ignoring them. Their desires for LBD have been heard and considered. Time will tell whether TFP decides to make compromises in that direction or not. But they haven't ignored those requests.

 

I understand that speeding through the progression and enjoying a system where you get better at something by doing that action are two separate issues. I know that there is enjoyment and rewarding feelings from seeing the skills progress through whatever skill you are practicing. I would not be opposed to a return of that system. I am not defending the new system at the expense of the old whatever you might believe. I can happily play organically under both systems.

 

My defensive stance has consistently been that the new system is also a legitimate and fun system for many people just as the last system was. I disagree strongly that the game is now predetermined and linear and I see the style of play that would lead to always doing the same exact things at the exact same time and exact same level as being extreme and not indicative of the majority of players. I understand that any system is not going to be fun for some but fun for others.

 

I do understand what you mean by being able to get started on improvement in specific skills from Day 1 by seeing that skill bar start progressing as you performed those actions. The difference that I see is that with LBD you are spending the xp as you earn it. You loot and earn xp and it gets dumped immediately into the looting skill. In the current system you are looting and you gain xp into a central pool until it culminates into a point that can then be spent on....whatever you want. Some see the immediate and automatic spending of the xp in the specific area as more fun and others see the saving up of the xp and conversion of it into a point that can be spent however they wish as more fun. Others are happy with both.

 

Maybe it isn't that people aren't understanding you. Maybe they do understand and they STILL find their fun in an alternate fashion. The problem with some of the complainers is they are under the misguided opinion that those who don't believe as they do must be 1) stupid 2) fanbois 3) lazy 4) unable to understand the positive aspects of LBD 5) All of the above.

 

Again, I wouldn't be upset in the least if they added the skills back in and made them LBD. I would be overjoyed to not have to mod out the level gates. I'm not fighting against those ideas. I'm pushing back against the narrative being pushed that the entire playerbase is against A17 and that the game is going down the tubes because of A17.

 

Roland if u mod out level gates what do u do about vehicles? Most of them would be pointless without gates. This is the biggest downside of A17 perks to me. I wish the vehicles needed schematics and intellect... not necessarily a perk. Schematic for better vehicles could be super rare.

[Guppycur]

Roland if u mod out level gates what do u do about vehicles? Most of them would be pointless without gates. This is the biggest downside of A17 perks to me. I wish the vehicles needed schematics and intellect... not necessarily a perk. Schematic for better vehicles could be super rare.

 

The vanilla vehicle system is horrible. I'm waging a war against it in my mod. Make gas truly scarce. No crafting of vehicles from stupid materials. Repair being the key logic. Vehicles break down easily. You can find working ones. Gas siphoning system. Large variety. Etc.

[Hazeree]

Interesting how a topic for "streamers are leaving" turned into a discussion about the perk system. On that note:

 

I feel like the LBD vs gated is forgetting that A16.4 was not a purely LBD system. It was a mix of LBD and gates. And you could take your skill points after getting the XP to crack a new level and spend them on ...... (wait for it)........the LBD if you wanted!!!!! Yes folks! Dont want to improve frames to get those last 5 levels of crafting so you can start making concrete? Buy them out! Dont want to waste skill points on something you can get for free (well, by working hard and grinding)? Save your points for the later!

 

So many choices.

 

I remember the Auger was the gamechanger. Dig for 3 days straight gathering ore of everything. The digging power leveled you, and gave you more skill points, to then spend on unlocking the gates you were getting to through digging. All while the digging built up your mining perk system.

 

A17, now the 'easy' thing to do is farm Zed kills. And from the sounds of it, the perk system has much higher level requirements for the gated stuff? And alot more items gated that used to be schematic based?

 

Sounds like A17 is a true gate system, and A16 was a hybrid.

 

Meh. The issue must be about balancing. And it sounds more like it gets closer to balanced for one playstyle as it gets farther from being balanced for a different play style. I dont envy the devs. Or maybe I dont envy the people who's playstyle gets trashed from picking sides?

 

Hope its not my side that gets trashed.

[xXBadDreamXx]

i dont mind that my thread got derailed as its been a pretty positive and friendly convo for the most part which is great and ive been enjoying reading it every day.

 

im starting a new thread for streamers to post their infos so i can follow them and go watch =)

[AGar]

i dont mind that my thread got derailed as its been a pretty positive and friendly convo for the most part which is great and ive been enjoying reading it every day.

 

im starting a new thread for streamers to post their infos so i can follow them and go watch =)

 

I have been enjoying it as well, i didn't start playing 7D2D until 16.4 right before Alpha 17 came out (humble bundle) and I've just been playing that until i get a couple plays through and start alpha 17. That being said, i watch a bit of youtubers play as it is not only new and entertaining for me but i get to see how people try different play styles. Lurking the forums and getting insight from the vets while reading what people do and do not like is pretty interesting because i have not yet played alpha 17 and have no idea if i will like it or not. Seeing Kage, PoppaTot, and Capp on the forums is also really cool because you get to see what they really think.

 

I will definitely be looking for your streamer thread.

 

Cheers.

[AtomicUs5000]

Interesting how a topic for "streamers are leaving" turned into a discussion about the perk system.

It really isn't that interesting... half of the topics here turn into perk system discussions.

[Guppycur]

It really isn't that interesting... half of the topics here turn into perk system discussions.

 

Yeh, 'cause it sucks. =)

 

And no one, LITERALLY NO ONE, likes it, and tfp will fail as a company as a result.

 

/runs away

[AtomicUs5000]

I wouldn't say that I hate them. I just find them dull. It's very flat. The lack of tree structure hinders the sense of specializing in anything.

 

I know that you can essentially lump all of the old skills together, and you would just end up with what we have. Even with knowing this though, it still does not help. I guess what I really liked about the old system was the feeling of constant progression. The concept of LBD I enjoyed, but I think it was this quality that came with it that I really want.

 

I guess I would rather build myself up very slowly, less than 1% even, as long as it happens all the time. With the new system, I feel like I suck for a long time then finally I improve magically. I suppose what would make it better for me would be to divide up those perks into smaller stages and just earn points more often. I think I would have a little more control over the paths I chose as well. A point placed into something that you weren't quite sure about yet wouldn't be so detrimental.

[Roland]

Roland if u mod out level gates what do u do about vehicles? Most of them would be pointless without gates. This is the biggest downside of A17 perks to me. I wish the vehicles needed schematics and intellect... not necessarily a perk. Schematic for better vehicles could be super rare.

 

Well, I agree that with no level gates there should either be a stiffer price on the better vehicles or as you say make them subject to RNG and use schematics to unlock them. For myself, I'm not super concerned as I like to try different things. I might try going for a gyrocopter for early game and see how that changes the game but even if it is OP I'm not going to do that every time since I like variety.

 

I don't think level gates should be just removed for the default game. They would need to balance things to keep them paced out and give each vehicle it's chance in the spotlight but for my own personal game it is fine for testing things out and trying out new stuff without having to be level 120. I guess easier would be to just cm myself a gyrocopter but I like the process of spending the points to learn it and then gather the mats and craft it.

[Tin]

Yeh, 'cause it sucks. =)

 

And no one, LITERALLY NO ONE, likes it, and tfp will fail as a company as a result.

 

/runs away

 

[Roland]

LITERALLY NO ONE likes it...

 

You and me buddy. We be sharing a new title for a bit...

[Sam_Neill]

It really isn't that interesting... half of the topics here turn into perk system discussions.

 

I thought half the topics were about RWG ? So i did follow the wrong 20 people argueing with 4 other people ?

 

 

Ya, mostly the same 20 people vs mostly the same 4 people defending it. I have yet to hear any actual reason or facts from the people defending the perk system. Their main argument is that the system is similar in the way that we perk up. You actually never see "The new perk system is good because --blank--" It is always "I am still enjoying a17" or "It is good" those are not reasons or facts supporting it..

 

[meganoth]

I didn't say scavenging shouldn't be part of the game but it's clearly the part with the highest risk of not surviving. Therefore, one would assume with a realistic course of the game that one makes only as much use of it as absolutely necessary. Of course, that's not what the players do. They go to the POIs because they just enjoy it.

 

You don't have to take that too seriously, but I think it is funny when people tell you it's a survival game and then happily run into the arms of the zombies that should be the main threat in this game.

 

In reality survivors (waking up naked on the road side) would have no choice, happy or not. They would have to scavenge constantly, especially for food but also useable stuff that they couldn't produce themselves.

 

I find it strange that you bring up reality but think scavening is not necessary because of the absolutely unrealistic possibility to dig up stones and ore from the ground and practically build everything from that (except food) and get food from the garden every 3 days. You are in the same make-believe wold than everyone else and kidding yourself if you think you act like in reality.

 

Late EDIT: You might have a valid point though that you have found a strategy that may be safer and easier than others. A similar strategy was possible in A16 too, by the way.

[AtomicUs5000]

I thought half the topics were about RWG ?

 

Yes... those would be the other half. Those topics started off talking about ziplines and how TFP needs to learn from Sony

[Noompsie]

If you want to talk about skill trees....Path of Exile. Now there is an AWESOME skill tree.