Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[OzHawkeye]

Hey, you've already got my money, so you really don't need to worry about anything I say. I bought the game for myself and about four or five more copies for friends and family. I'm just a cash cow, and my opinion does not matter, but I do have to say that at the moment I'm not buying another copy for anyone.

 

It's not that your opinion "doesn't matter", but that it doesn't decide the course of the game. If you'd look at the warnings that Steam splashes all over you when purchasing an Early Access title, you'd have noted that the game is liable to change tack during the course of the development. TFP didn't do that just to upset you - they did it because they believe it's the best direction for the game to take.

 

By all means, voice concerns about aspects of the game you don't like, but unless you like being disappointed, keep in mind that your voice alone, or indeed in concert with others, may not convince TFP that you're right and they're wrong.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

but objectively, when looking at features and gameplay, A17 is worse than A16 or even A15.

 

Perhaps I need to re-learn what the word objectively means, because it looks to me here that you've used it compare two subjective items.

[Morloc]

I think the impact on morale of the RWG being temporarily out-of-order has been gravely underestimated.

 

I think the ability to craft purple items when all purple items are equal needs to be reevaluated. At the very least there should be a rng applied (i.e. 501-600). This of course would mean that we'd need to return to there being some difference between a 501 and 600 weapon.

 

See! I can bitch too!

 

 

-Morloc

[Exxodous]

2 cents post

 

I'm enjoying A17 more than the previous 2 Alpha versions. Particularly the perk system. Maybe it is broken, maybe it is linear. Maybe it fits my playstyle, who knows but there isn't much I'd change about it other than RWG, but even with that and all the radio towers, it's what I'm playing.

[Prisma501]

2 cents post

 

I'm enjoying A17 more than the previous 2 Alpha versions. Particularly the perk system. Maybe it is broken, maybe it is linear. Maybe it fits my playstyle, who knows but there isn't much I'd change about it other than RWG, but even with that and all the radio towers, it's what I'm playing.

 

Let me add a boring +1 to that.

 

Cheers

[Feycat]

I'm honestly confused by this, no sarcasm intended. I guess I don't get what was bad about mining for mats, xp and skillups and getting better at your mining skills by doing that AND being able to place perk points into what ever else you wanted from gaining level points at the same time?

 

Are you not mining now? If so, you are still doing the same thing, except getting better at mining simultaneously without having to buy the perks for it. You still get the points to buy whatever you want, and you should still be mining regardless of the progression system, no?

 

I feel like you either didn't read my post or didn't read what I was replying to. Nothing was bad about it. You are saying the exact same thing I said - it was the same now and then.

 

His complaint was that in A16 he'd mine for "skillups, xp and mats" and get a "feeling of accomplishment" but now he has to just chase zombies around to grind for xp and it's not fun.

 

My point is that it's the exact same in A16 as A17. "LBD" wasn't actually any such thing. You still ground xp by some activity (mining, zombies, crafting axes til you wanted to die) and then put the xp where you wanted it. It has nothing to do with the skill.

 

Yeah, I got "free" mining skillups by mining, but in A16 I was not forced to put all xp gained by mining INTO mining skills. I could put them into shotgun skills.

 

Now, I get "free" skillups by mining and am not forced to put those points into mining skills. I can get "free" skillups by killing zombies and I don't have to put those points into combat skills. It's exactly the same.

[Feycat]

Gazz I've been wondering. Have you guys been aiming to keep people in the stone tools and stone structures for a week+ in game time?

 

One of the large challenges to A17 is... we don't know how you want us to play exactly. lol. I mean. Yeah, I'm all for converting attributes to skills and taking away the Attribute gating myself. Get's us back to a more sandbox mode of the game IMO.

 

But if there's a way you guys are aiming for us to skill up and progress in the game, the wide open skill list doesn't really help people to figure that out.

 

This is one of the reasons you see games that push people down more linear paths have rigid linear skill trees.

 

And I get it, "TFP isn't making the game linear". I've heard that. But the game play? Doesn't feel like that.

 

So honestly.

 

* Is TFP trying to structure how people advance through the game?

* Sub point: If not, can you explain why there's level restrictions and attribute restrictions on skills? If I literally can't craft a workbench till level 35, can't craft a forge till 10, and so on, how is it not a structured way of allowing people to advance?

* Does TFP have a vision of how players would typically allocate skills to be successful?

* If so, what's the vision?

 

Um, who cares how they "want" us to play the game?

 

The game isn't linear and doesn't feel linear. At least, it doesn't feel MORE linear than it used to.

 

In A16 you gained xp by doing stuff and then spent those points in perks. Same thing now.

 

There are working workbenches all over the place. I've never failed to find at least 1 trader with a working forge. If you're really lucky, you get both in one, and settle down next to him.

 

Or get a wrench, take everything apart and then sell all the parts to the trader and BUY iron tools or cement or whatever you want.

 

Plus, it takes almost no time to get to 35.

 

The game isn't limiting you.

[Ranzera]

It's not that your opinion "doesn't matter", but that it doesn't decide the course of the game. If you'd look at the warnings that Steam splashes all over you when purchasing an Early Access title, you'd have noted that the game is liable to change tack during the course of the development. TFP didn't do that just to upset you - they did it because they believe it's the best direction for the game to take.

 

By all means, voice concerns about aspects of the game you don't like, but unless you like being disappointed, keep in mind that your voice alone, or indeed in concert with others, may not convince TFP that you're right and they're wrong.

 

I think he covered that with:

 

Again, they sold a game to an audience under the impression that they are selling product a, not product b. Sure, it's alpha, things will change, get out of jail free card for any indie developer that grifts their player base and all of that, but they sold a particular product and then, against the will of their playerbase, changed features that seems to have had a negative impact on customer satisfaction.

 

You know, the paragraph immediately before the one you quoted and had to read to get to it.

 

I for one am a little surprised at this unified mantra from everyone associated with TFP that sounds an awful lot like "We won't acknowledge there's a problem until there's overwhelming indisputable evidence that everyone has already speed playing the game." How many "yes men" are on that dev team, seriously? Are you guys practicing Gerald Ratner's model for business?

[Cirion]

I think the impact on morale of the RWG being temporarily out-of-order has been gravely underestimated.

 

I think the ability to craft purple items when all purple items are equal needs to be reevaluated. At the very least there should be a rng applied (i.e. 501-600). This of course would mean that we'd need to return to there being some difference between a 501 and 600 weapon.

 

See! I can bitch too!

 

-Morloc

 

Welcome aboard the QQ train! The engine is powered by tears

[Feycat]

I for one am a little surprised at this unified mantra from everyone associated with TFP that sounds an awful lot like "We won't acknowledge there's a problem until there's overwhelming indisputable evidence that everyone has already speed playing the game." How many "yes men" are on that dev team, seriously? Are you guys practicing Gerald Ratner's model for business?

 

Probably because "everyone playing the game" doesn't feel that way and plenty of people like it just fine. They have access to the analytics, we don't.

[OzHawkeye]

I think he covered that with:

 

 

 

You know, the paragraph immediately before the one you quoted and had to read to get to it.

 

I for one am a little surprised at this unified mantra from everyone associated with TFP that sounds an awful lot like "We won't acknowledge there's a problem until there's overwhelming indisputable evidence that everyone has already speed playing the game." How many "yes men" are on that dev team, seriously? Are you guys practicing Gerald Ratner's model for business?

 

I've been quite polite, so I think I can reasonably expect the same in return thank you Ranzera. No, I'm not a "Yes man", there's aspects to A17 I don't like myself, and I've expressed my disapproval of those aspects quite clearly. The mistake your making is to assume (and without evidence at that), that your particular issues are universally shared by the entire player base. That what you don't like about A17, must therefore be what's necessarily wrong with A17.

 

Me personally, I don't like level gating, so I mod it out. I don't like the loss of "learn by doing" and that's not something I can't easily mod back in either, so I've stated my opinion on the subject, and hope that TFP will hear my voice, in concert with others, and that if enough people voice their opinion in agreement, something just might happen about it.

 

But at no point have I claimed that TFP pulled a fast one on me, or accused my fellow moderators (who are NOT employees of TFP by the way), of being "Yes men" or refusing to acknowledge a problem, just because I define some particular aspect of the game as a problem.

 

Two good points in example: Madmole likes the perk system - a lot - so I don't expect it to fundamentally change. For me, that means I just have to live with it and tailor it (however much I can) into a mechanic that I like better. The mess RWG is in has basically stopped me from playing A17 for all but test games in 17.0, but on this score, TFP have agreed with the player base that it's an issue and are working to fix it, so on this one, I do expect it to change to something more to my liking.

 

Two issues there, one TFP agrees with me on, the other they don't. All that means is that on the first one, they don't see it as a problem.

[JaxTeller718]

I love how everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room. 16.4 was so streamed because of the variety of mods on offer. War of the Walkers, Darkness Falls, Starvation, Undead Legacy, Valmod ALL were consistently in the top streamed streamers playlist. Maybe even my mod who knows.

 

Even in 16 not many actually played vanilla. That's not meant as a sleight, its just facts. No vanilla play has ever been good for long term streaming. End game happens VERY quickly.

 

Grumbul was Ravenhearst and Starvation as well as Undead Legacy, BGG was CBMod and Walkers, Jonah was Walkers, Drunkenuff was Walkers and Undead Legacy. Kage tried them all as did Games4Kickz.

 

 

Edited

 

After looking back over the past several pages I think I will sit this one out. Y'all went WAY off topic lol

[PoppaTot]

I love how everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room. 16.4 was so streamed because of the variety of mods on offer. War of the Walkers, Darkness Falls, Starvation, Undead Legacy, Valmod ALL were consistently in the top streamed streamers playlist. Maybe even my mod who knows.

 

Even in 16 not many actually played vanilla. That's not meant as a sleight, its just facts. No vanilla play has ever been good for long term streaming. End game happens VERY quickly.

 

Grumbul was Ravenhearst and Starvation as well as Undead Legacy, BGG was CBMod and Walkers, Jonah was Walkers, Drunkenuff was Walkers and Undead Legacy. Kage tried them all as did Games4Kickz.

 

I wish I could get my hands on UL, I'd stream that every stream... aside from Friday's, that's beer and community games lmao. From what I understand, none of the overhaul mods are completed yet, are they? Serious question.

[Ranzera]

Probably because "everyone playing the game" doesn't feel that way and plenty of people like it just fine. They have access to the analytics, we don't.

 

Everyone has access to the analytics. They are here: https://steamcharts.com/app/251570#1m

 

The game is fixing to have its single largest loss of time played (as seen by average players field) in a single month. Ever. In February. The shortest month of the year.

[Maynard69]

I feel like you either didn't read my post or didn't read what I was replying to. Nothing was bad about it. You are saying the exact same thing I said - it was the same now and then.

 

His complaint was that in A16 he'd mine for "skillups, xp and mats" and get a "feeling of accomplishment" but now he has to just chase zombies around to grind for xp and it's not fun.

 

M

 

I think it was my post you didnt read. I never once mentioned only chasing zombies. What I said was there is no longer a variety of activites you do to reach your goals. Its now mining and killing.

 

There is no going out with the purpose to level up your scavenging, while getting loot u only get from that activity (much less anyway) There is no longer going out to work on your armor, or gathering mats to get your crafting skills up. The only goal is XP and it gets old after a few playthroughs.

 

It was fine the first couple times, but the game has devolved into doing two activites to get 1 reward, XP. Instead of a ton of stuff to do for lots of rewards.

 

Combine that with now being able to craft guns and top-armor and not needing schematics makes it feels like 70%+ of the good chase-reward things in the game are gone. For me the experience is extremely underwhelming compared to how much fun previous alphas were, and does indeed feel like a more linear experience to me.

[JaxTeller718]

I wish I could get my hands on UL, I'd stream that every stream... aside from Friday's, that's beer and community games lmao. From what I understand, none of the overhaul mods are completed yet, are they? Serious question.

 

Darkness Falls is released.

 

Rumors there may be another one added to that very short list sometime tonight

[Ranzera]

I've been quite polite, so I think I can reasonably expect the same in return thank you Ranzera. No, I'm not a "Yes man", there's aspects to A17 I don't like myself, and I've expressed my disapproval of those aspects quite clearly. The mistake your making is to assume (and without evidence at that), that your particular issues are universally shared by the entire player base. That what you don't like about A17, must therefore be what's necessarily wrong with A17.

 

Me personally, I don't like level gating, so I mod it out. I don't like the loss of "learn by doing" and that's not something I can't easily mod back in either, so I've stated my opinion on the subject, and hope that TFP will hear my voice, in concert with others, and that if enough people voice their opinion in agreement, something just might happen about it.

 

But at no point have I claimed that TFP pulled a fast one on me, or accused my fellow moderators (who are NOT employees of TFP by the way), of being "Yes men" or refusing to acknowledge a problem, just because I define some particular aspect of the game as a problem.

 

Two good points in example: Madmole likes the perk system - a lot - so I don't expect it to fundamentally change. For me, that means I just have to live with it and tailor it (however much I can) into a mechanic that I like better. The mess RWG is in has basically stopped me from playing A17 for all but test games in 17.0, but on this score, TFP have agreed with the player base that it's an issue and are working to fix it, so on this one, I do expect it to change to something more to my liking.

 

Two issues there, one TFP agrees with me on, the other they don't. All that means is that on the first one, they don't see it as a problem.

 

You mods keep saying "but I have my own issues" but every time I see some saccarin coated message about how "some players like it" there's a 60% chance it's you or Roland. Forgive me for being skeptical about how you mods actually feel. I have a very difficult time having respect for people who I feel are being duplicitous.

 

I'm sorry that it comes out. I have a very calls it as I see it personally and it gets me into trouble all the time

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I love how everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room. 16.4 was so streamed because of the variety of mods on offer. War of the Walkers, Darkness Falls, Starvation, Undead Legacy, Valmod ALL were consistently in the top streamed streamers playlist. Maybe even my mod who knows.

 

Even in 16 not many actually played vanilla. That's not meant as a sleight, its just facts. No vanilla play has ever been good for long term streaming. End game happens VERY quickly.

 

Grumbul was Ravenhearst and Starvation as well as Undead Legacy, BGG was CBMod and Walkers, Jonah was Walkers, Drunkenuff was Walkers and Undead Legacy. Kage tried them all as did Games4Kickz.

 

 

Edited

 

After looking back over the past several pages I think I will sit this one out. Y'all went WAY off topic lol

 

I played 16.4 Vanilla permadeath server roulette exclusively.

[PoppaTot]

Darkness Falls is released.

 

Rumors there may be another one added to that very short list sometime tonight

 

Man, I feel dumb lol. I knew Darkness Falls was out.... now I'm curious of said rumor though lol

[DaVegaNL]

2 cents post

 

I'm enjoying A17 more than the previous 2 Alpha versions. Particularly the perk system. Maybe it is broken, maybe it is linear. Maybe it fits my playstyle, who knows but there isn't much I'd change about it other than RWG, but even with that and all the radio towers, it's what I'm playing.

 

This fits my opinion mostly. Most people complaining in this thread are the same ones complaining constantly in other threads thereby reinforcing their idea that most people don't like a17.

[AtomicUs5000]

That's not how YouTube works. Everytime the game updates views are a little less than the years before. They have been dropping a little from year to year, they peaked at the console release. If anything this year is up a bit from 16.4. Growth figures a little into it.

 

Honestly I think part of the good numbers is because others have stopped, or done less videos. People cant watch them so they go to someone else.

 

Some people watch just for me I guess. And growth has an effect. But I'm not seeing the dropoff people are talking about. If alpha 17 was that bad on a global level, not just the .001% of the people on the forums complaining, I'd feel it. Trust me.

 

For the record I dont mean the forum people passion and feelings on 17 dont matter, of course they do. Just saying most of the people playing a17 dont come to forums and never even think about them.

 

You have about 5 videos from A16 that went over 100K views. Your first A17 vid almost made it. The following one halved in views, the third halved again. The decline started immediately! Just days after. Why? Because there's nothing new to see!

A16... 3 months later, what were you getting? You were consistently getting 25k to 35k per video. What are you getting now 3 months into A17? 2k to 5k? No way even close by a long shot is this comparable to your A16 numbers. Not even remotely close. Like I said before, the zombie AI with horde night now is terrible to watch. Nobody wants to see the cheese.

 

OK... now look at these (3 months into each Alpha):

A14:

 

A15:

 

A16:

 

A17:

 

What do you see? On average, the player base has been growing a little each alpha. A17's numbers are almost identical to A16.

 

Conclusion: Same number of people playing the game, but by your numbers, I see maybe half, probably less, are still watching people play this game.

[xXBadDreamXx]

everyones entitled to their opinion but lets be nice to each other...we all love this game and want to keep it awesome

 

Everyone plays the game differently. I am fairly salty about certain changes but honestly the perk system isn't completely horrible like people harp on so much. It just needs tweaking...maybe some perks entirely removed. Or maybe even more added to give people more choice. I love the dungeon POI's .I wish every building wasn't treated like a dungeon POI and filled to the rafters with zombies. It turns looting into popping EXP pinatas endlessly till you cant stand it anymore. I find myself with little to no time to do other things like mine and build and those are the things id like to focus on. I get it. It's a zombie game and were supposed to kill zombies. If i want to kill zombies i can easily go find some. I don't need 12 pouring out of a 15x15 shack in the woods like some sorta deranged clown car.

 

There are currently 834 viewers watching people play 7 days on twitch. This is about half the number that were watching in alpha 16 on a friday night

[Guppycur]

Man, I feel dumb lol. I knew Darkness Falls was out.... now I'm curious of said rumor though lol

He might mean my shopping cart mod. ;-)

[Feycat]

I think it was my post you didnt read. I never once mentioned only chasing zombies. What I said was there is no longer a variety of activites you do to reach your goals. Its now mining and killing.

 

There is no going out with the purpose to level up your scavenging, while getting loot u only get from that activity (much less anyway) There is no longer going out to work on your armor, or gathering mats to get your crafting skills up. The only goal is XP and it gets old after a few playthroughs.

 

It was fine the first couple times, but the game has devolved into doing two activites to get 1 reward, XP. Instead of a ton of stuff to do for lots of rewards.

 

Combine that with now being able to craft guns and top-armor and not needing schematics makes it feels like 70%+ of the good chase-reward things in the game are gone. For me the experience is extremely underwhelming compared to how much fun previous alphas were, and does indeed feel like a more linear experience to me.

 

You didn't need to do ANY of that in A16 either. You could stay underground mining the ENTIRE time and level up your looting, armor, crafting, whatever you wanted. You got all the xp you wanted. You never had to go sit on a cactus or loot or do anything you don't want to.

 

And you still don't. You still get xp and put it where you want. Gratz.

[PoppaTot]

He might mean my shopping cart mod. ;-)

 

OK, that's now a must have lmao

[Tin]

So test it out Cirion. Change the opening quest to give you 40 skill points and purchase every skill and attribute you need to be the guy you want to be. Edit out the level gates too. Give it an actual test drive and see if being Who you want to be right from the early game is preferable to building that dude up slowly.

 

I’ve been testing my theories about no xp at all and it has been eye opening.

 

Can you post your thoughts on how the no xp PoC is going? I would be interested on what you think about it, and your conclusions so far.

 

edit: be it a new thread or a pm. pls and ty.

[OzHawkeye]

You mods keep saying "but I have my own issues" but every time I see some saccarin coated message about how "some players like it" there's a 60% chance it's you or Roland. Forgive me for being skeptical about how you mods actually feel. I have a very difficult time having respect for people who I feel are being duplicitous.

 

I'm sorry that it comes out. I have a very calls it as I see it personally and it gets me into trouble all the time

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

If you were sorry how it came out, you wouldn't have said it - so don't bother apologizing for it.

 

And you're off this world if you think no-one likes A17, or that everyone who doesn't like it, doesn't like it for the exact same reasons you don't. You only have two look posts down from your own to see someone who likes A17 more than the prior two versions.