Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[PoppaTot]

* Long delay between A16 and A17.

 

I don't think this had an impact until it was said that A17 was close and then took around, what, 3-5 more months to come out? A lot of streamers and youtubers stopped playing because they thought a reset was imminent.

[katarynna]

I see obtaining necessary materials and items as necessary to survival. If I need to enter poi's to obtain those things, I see clearing poi's as part of survival. I never enter a poi without bandages, health recovery items, and weaponry. I minimize risk as much as possible and play carefully.

 

I also prioritize a garden asap and work toward self sufficiency. But it seems very reasonable to me that I need to go out and get things necessary for survival, so looting poi's seems like something that SHOULD be a necessity as well.

 

To me it sounds like you feel everything necessary to survival should be AT your base (delivered by the old a16 zombie loot train?) for you to pick up and that leaving your base to find things is not part of survival. To me, that sounds not only boring but unrealistic.

 

Almost all zombie/apocolyptic stories regardless of genre (games, movies, books, etc) that I can think of have survivors entering and looting stores, homes, etc. to find what they need to survive and thrive. One exception I can think of is Day of the Dead (I believe... could have been Dawn) where they holed up in a shopping mall and had everything they needed there.

 

To me, having to go out to find more ammo/weapons/food/mats/people/medicine/etc is logical, realistic, and immersive. You manage risks, not eliminate them. The fact that it also makes for more a more entertaining game is a plus.

 

I don't expose myself to more danger than necessary "because the materials could also be obtained in a more harmless way". I can no longer get a small concrete base day 7 by grinding construction tools to get concrete. Therefore I CAN'T obtain it in a more harmless way early. It's just that I don't consider that a bad thing and you do. A16 was much easier for sure.

 

I often did not go into a building week one. I had a forge day 1 or day 2. Made my cooking pot. Made my tools. Mined. Built my base and garden. It was safe and efficient. Wandering hordes and screamers delivered loot to me. It was also not nearly as fun as a17 for me.

 

I am fine with needing to find concrete or things to sell to a trader to get concrete. It feels natural that the spot in the woods I chose to build my base doesn't already have or else get delivered everything I might possibly need. It sounds like you preferred that which is fine. To each their own.

 

I am actually a very careful, cautious player. I don't feel like I take unnecessary risks. I tend to play like the 50 year old grandmother that I am. But I do find that I enjoy having to step outside my comfort level earlier now, and for reasons that seem natural and realistic to me.

 

I started playing the alpha before sticks were removed, whichever that one was. I have truly enjoyed each successive alpha more, with a17 being my favorite so far.

[OldManBrian]

This is only true if the player chooses to play each time exactly the same way. You have figured out what you believe to be the optimal path for you and have decided you must follow that same path every playthrough. Not everyone plays that way.

 

Replay value will vary for different individuals.

 

That's the problem though, the player chooses to do everything now in a17 as opposed to having a randomized loot-based gameplay experience like in a16. It's like saying being tickled and tickling yourself are two of the same experiences. They just aren't, one is something you experience and the other is something you're in total control over.

 

It's just completely predictable now.

 

The problem to me is that the gameplay loop was SO GOOD and allowed for emergent gameplay in a16, but it's now totally different. I'm not going to say it's bad because some people DO like it, but you can't argue that it isn't completely different and appeals to a different playstyle now.

[PoppaTot]

 

THIS, so much this, people learned to beat the game and now they feel uncomfortable if they have to think out of the box (again)!

Instead like playing each Alpha as a whole new game again people tend to do what always worked and then (might) complain.

 

To "think outside the box" and to purposely nerf your playthrough for an artificial "new experience" are totally different things.

 

Have you played a SP no intellect run? It's fun for a little bit, but there is always that "I know I could just spend a perk point and craft that" nag in the back of my head. It may be a personal flaw of mine. But, knowing that I can do something and then purposefully avoiding it is not my idea of fun. Again, I still enjoy A17, just wish we had the RNG back. That was the backbone of the game to me.

[OzHawkeye]

I don't think this had an impact until it was said that A17 was close and then took around, what, 3-5 more months to come out? A lot of streamers and youtubers stopped playing because they thought a reset was imminent.

 

A fair point that, since I know myself I did much the same. I tend to peter out once the next Alpha is announced as imminent, given the need to wipe games. Perhaps both factors were in play (the overall delay, and the delay between first announcement and release).

 

The inherent flaw in this whole thread I think, is it's necessarily trying to divine motive for a decline in streamer numbers, rather than simply asserting whether that's happened or not. Ultimately, the only way to answer the OP's question would be to poll all the A16 streamers and ask them whether they stream A17 and if not, why not. On that score, I wouldn't have the first clue (though I've been reading the posts of those claiming to be streamers here), since it's just not a phenomena I've ever indulged in.

[Laz Man]

It's not that there's no acknowledgement of that. It's that every time someone complains it's always the same "yes but some people like the new perk system" from a certain moderator.

 

They won't acknowledge that this perk system is hot garbage because certain people on the dev team like it. It scratches that fallout itch for them. Nevermind the fact that even Fallout fans think it's too damn simplified in the newer Fallout games.

 

It's a recipe for mediocrity.

 

I like the perk system but do think it needs more tweaking so there are more desired routes to take.

[Kage848]

This is only true if the player chooses to play each time exactly the same way. You have figured out what you believe to be the optimal path for you and have decided you must follow that same path every playthrough. Not everyone plays that way.

 

Replay value will vary for different individuals.

 

There is some truth to this. I'm not a fan of the start over to get all the toys thing. Qith that said I'm already planning out new builds for my next game. I'm strongly thinking about skipping the jeep altogether.

 

Problem is roland the points being saved are really in the attribute tree and not the perks. And tfp made it so there is a last perk in almost every tree that's a huge game changer. So there's no real saving points and specializing. Balance is needed but all in all I think the system is sound.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'd amend Ghostlights concern slightly for myself. It's true that in prior versions, how a player chose to play would make a great deal of difference in how they geared up, but there was the added element of RNG as well. I might always want to use a sniper rifle, but I might not always immediately find one (going back a few Alphas now) or all the parts for one as in more immediately prior Alphas.

 

While it's way off topic for this thread, where the crafting comes in to a concern, is that the ability to craft all these guns (coupled with an inability to find one more than 1 or 2 "quality" levels higher than base now), reduces the incentive to go on the loot hunt. Not only do I know that I'm very unlikely to find a Q6 Sniper Rifle, but I know also that if I just keep leveling up, I'll soon be able to make one.

 

Anyway, quite off topic, so to throw my 2 cents into the pile for something on the topic, I think all of the following have been factors in lower stream numbers (if that is indeed the case):

 

* Long delay between A16 and A17.

* Current state of RWG.

* Volume of change in A17, which is taking time for the community to digest.

 

Since I've never watched streaming myself (not really my thing), that's probably about the best I could come up with for the reasons for any drop.

 

Also the console version getting screwed was a HUGE deal.

[PoppaTot]

A fair point that, since I know myself I did much the same. I tend to peter out once the next Alpha is announced as imminent, given the need to wipe games. Perhaps both factors were in play (the overall delay, and the delay between first announcement and release).

 

The inherent flaw in this whole thread I think, is it's necessarily trying to divine motive for a decline in streamer numbers, rather than simply asserting whether that's happened or not. Ultimately, the only way to answer the OP's question would be to poll all the A16 streamers and ask them whether they stream A17 and if not, why not. On that score, I wouldn't have the first clue (though I've been reading the posts of those claiming to be streamers here), since it's just not a phenomena I've ever indulged in.

 

I've been streaming on Twitch for 2 years. I had really good success on Borderlands 2, then got burnt out. Switched to CoD for awhile and was doing pretty well there. The new CoD is trash so I went away from that and started streaming A16.4. It went pretty well, then A17 hit. Views went way up for a few weeks, then dropped way down after it was discovered how to cheese the AI. I didn't do that, but viewers seemed to be disinterested in that play after seeing a few builds floating around YT. Things seem to have picked back up. We were floating around 20ish viewers for my 6 hour stream last night. In BL2 and CoD the views were higher but those games generally had a bigger viewer pool as well.

 

To try to determine, or pin-point, why the views declined is semi-pointless to me. There are way to many factors to include.

[AtomicUs5000]

The difference is that I doubt the basic assumption that running around and killing zombies is or should be part of survival.

Zombies are supposed to be a threat. If you want to survive you normally avoid threats as much as possible.

 

This was an interesting point. If you did go out to seek and eliminate the threat, why did you? You would logically do this to keep yourself safe. However, in this game, when you actively seek out the threat, the threat increases (because your gamestage goes up) Logically, it should be the opposite, at least in your current area.

 

What I think would be cool is an extension of the heat map. The heat map would increase by construction activities and tool/device usage as usual, but would decrease by killing zombies. When the heat map is low, say in the negatives, it lessens world zombie spawns. So, let's say you have a 2K path between your base and a trader. On the way there and back, you wipe out every zombie you see. The next day, you decide to go back to the trader. This path should have a far less population of zombies. You have effectively lessened the threat along this path, governed by the heat map.

 

It makes more sense to me, plus I suspect that it could actually simplify the spawns, especially sleeper spawns in POIs. Each sleeper volume would not need its own trigger delay between spawns... it could simply be governed by the extended heat map.

[Sam_Neill]

Have you played a SP no intellect run?

Yes i did that, starting in the experimental, and i was happy to find a forge out in the wild, that was working. Otherwise i spend my points on the "sneaky" skills, cause thats the way i like to play in games.

 

The only thing i would agree is the fact, you can not craft things the same way in a forge you found like you can build stuff in a own forge, thats cause you can only do the stuff with the skill for the forge, even if you have one - that would be my complain. You should be able to do the same stuff finding a lone forge like if you learnt that skill. Maybe there is room for improvement.

 

It's fun for a little bit, but there is always that "I know I could just spend a perk point and craft that" nag in the back of my head. It may be a personal flaw of mine. But, knowing that I can do something and then purposefully avoiding it is not my idea of fun. Again, I still enjoy A17, just wish we had the RNG back. That was the backbone of the game to me.

 

Yeah, RMG is in the works, im designing my own large prebuilt map to take care of that issue myself, but that takes time, but is also fun.

[RestInPieces]

This is only true if the player chooses to play each time exactly the same way. You have figured out what you believe to be the optimal path for you and have decided you must follow that same path every playthrough. Not everyone plays that way.

 

Replay value will vary for different individuals.

 

By this, do you mean that intelligence is not an essential tree that pretty much determines if one will skip the entire crafting/building/td aspect of the game and choose the alternative playstyle of... endless POI rummaging? Or do you mean that someone who will spec into intelligence will ignore the substantial benefit of its recipes once he can learn them and just get them at a random level?

 

As expected, I've yet to play 7DTD co-op with people that don't feel compelled to keep killing zombies at early game and mine as much as possible at latter game (AKA use the most efficient way of getting xp at each point of the game). Of course, personal experiences are silly as evidence - just wish common sense wasn't that rare of a superpower.

[PoppaTot]

I'm strongly thinking about skipping the jeep altogether.

 

I built the Jeep 1 time back in A17e. Never saw the need to build it again in the 15+ new saves.

[Sam_Neill]

 

This was an interesting point. If you did go out to seek and eliminate the threat, why did you? You would logically do this to keep yourself safe. However, in this game, when you actively seek out the threat, the threat increases (because your gamestage goes up) Logically, it should be the opposite, at least in your current area.

 

What I think would be cool is an extension of the heat map. The heat map would increase by construction activities and tool/device usage as usual, but would decrease by killing zombies. When the heat map is low, say in the negatives, it lessens world zombie spawns. So, let's say you have a 2K path between your base and a trader. On the way there and back, you wipe out every zombie you see. The next day, you decide to go back to the trader. This path should have a far less population of zombies. You have effectively lessened the threat along this path, governed by the heat map.

 

It makes more sense to me, plus I suspect that it could actually simplify the spawns, especially sleeper spawns in POIs. Each sleeper volume would not need its own trigger delay between spawns... it could simply be governed by the extended heat map.

 

 

Like State of decay where you had to clear houses that were infested, cause otherwise the zombie population around would grow and other houses would be infested too ?

https://stateofdecay.fandom.com/wiki/Infestation

 

We have that kind of thing, well at least that you have to clear zombies, but since now no effect of the world surrounding you. Or spreading out the disease.

 

Nice suggestion A way to "cool" down the heatmap would give players more choices.

[Roland]

By this, do you mean that intelligence is not an essential tree that pretty much determines if one will skip the entire crafting/building/td aspect of the game and choose the alternative playstyle of... endless POI rummaging? Or do you mean that someone who will spec into intelligence will ignore the substantial benefit of its recipes once he can learn them and just get them at a random level?

 

As expected, I've yet to play 7DTD co-op with people that don't feel compelled to keep killing zombies at early game and mine as much as possible at latter game (AKA use the most efficient way of getting xp at each point of the game). Of course, personal experiences are silly as evidence - just wish common sense wasn't that rare of a superpower.

 

I mean that you do not have to spend your points in the exact same order at the exact same time every time you play. Would I want to play the game without a forge ever? No. But neither do I feel compelled to get one at the soonest moment possible and play every run through always putting my points into intelligence first. If I find a working forge then I set up base nearby and use that forge and do more quests to get iron tools. If I can’t find a working forge then I start thinking about crafting a forge sooner. It isn’t about purposefully gimping myself as some have said. It is about focusing on a different mix of strengths. Someone earlier said that Perception is a waste but I like going strong in perception and using my bow and arrow and then being set up to improve one of my firearm categories as well.

 

I agree that more randomness in the game is better for more diversity in replays and would be for that as well. If they changed the ability to craft things back to recipes and used intelligence for other abilities I would not be upset at all.

[katarynna]

Regarding streaming, I feel like there are less major mods out now compared to the same point of time for a16. I didn't look it up, but that's how I remember it anyways. Few of the content creators I watched played vanilla exclusively for months.

 

I enjoyed watching game play from mods I hadn't tried. It helped me decide which ones I wanted to try, and I enjoyed watching some that I had no interest in actually playing.

 

Even though I will never download darkness falls, I greatly enjoy the streams and videos. I just prefer not having to micromanage gun parts, sticks, sharp rocks, and such and while I like extra workstations added in mods DF has too many for me. However, watching Gamez4kickz run back and forth between all the stations trying to figure out which one crafts the item he wants to make is hilarious.

 

For me at least, it is the mods I like to see after the first couple months. I KNOW the vanilla game very well. I still watch the vanilla youtube videos made by the content creators I like. But I have no interest in watching another vanilla stream right now, until it becomes an occasional thing in between mods.

 

It is not that I don't LIKE a17 vanilla. I play it and really enjoy it. I watch videos of it. But for an hour+ stream, I want more variety provided by different mods that significantly change up the vanilla game.

 

RWG fixes would also help a lot. When you are watching vs playing, variety in terrain and poi's is even more important for it to be entertaining.

 

I know some people have stated that the horde bases are too similar vs previous alpha's, but I don't feel that way. While a17 streamer horde bases do tend to take advantage of the ai quirks, I felt that a16 bases did the same. If the content creator is entertaining, the particulars of the base don't matter to me.

 

However, a world that looks more interesting and varied is important when I am watching. An entertaining person to listen to in an interesting environment to see doing things that are fun and different to watch and that I am not already doing all the time myself. That's what I need in a stream.

 

TLDR More mods and RWG fixes will increase the amount of streams I watch considerably.

[Kage848]

I built the Jeep 1 time back in A17e. Never saw the need to build it again in the 15+ new saves.

 

I would argue you could stop at the mini bike. But dat motorcycle is 2 sexy lol. Also problem is you dont save that many points because you still want to spec farther into int tree for other things.

 

The way I see it TFP want there cake and too eat it too. They want us to specialize but they specifically put the perks in key places all but forcing us deep into the attribute trees and then jacked up the price.

[PoppaTot]

I would argue you could stop at the mini bike. But dat motorcycle is 2 sexy lol. Also problem is you dont save that many points because you still want to spec farther into int tree for other things.

 

The way I see it TFP want there cake and too eat it too. They want us to specialize but they specifically put the perks in key places all but forcing us deep into the attribute trees and then jacked up the price.

 

Honestly, I would stop at the minibike if it was A16 fast lol. The only reason (aside from the sexy factor) I build the motorcycle is go a bit faster lol.

[HungryZombie]

Honestly, I would stop at the minibike if it was A16 fast lol. The only reason (aside from the sexy factor) I build the motorcycle is go a bit faster lol.

 

Larger storage too no?

[PoppaTot]

Larger storage too no?

 

Nope, I store NOTHING in the vehicles. I have had too many despawn on me.

[Laz Man]

I can tell you guys dont watch me lol. I complain about stuff. Quite often. I just think the great outweighs the good and i have faith tfp will work on issues I have.

 

Stuff I have bitched about

 

Perks limitations

Lag

Bullet sponge irradiated.

Iron tools at 20, madmole was in my stream when I first found out and freaked about it.

Trader 17.2 nerf.

 

Really people 😁

 

Edit this was more for the guy you quoted. Sorry about that lol

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Ok, sorry about that. Must have misread you.

 

Just saying though alot of people love alpha 17. That was my only real point.

 

I cant say I watch your streams alot but I clearly remember a stream where you had to pause and collect your self when you ran into your 1st level gate for the 1st time. (I think I rewatched it twice lol, sadistic I know)

 

You definitely have given your thoughts on what you like and dont like about A17 since its release.

[RipClaw]

I see obtaining necessary materials and items as necessary to survival. If I need to enter poi's to obtain those things, I see clearing poi's as part of survival. I never enter a poi without bandages, health recovery items, and weaponry. I minimize risk as much as possible and play carefully.

 

I also prioritize a garden asap and work toward self sufficiency. But it seems very reasonable to me that I need to go out and get things necessary for survival, so looting poi's seems like something that SHOULD be a necessity as well.

 

And I also didn't say that you don't have to go to POIs at all but usually you would minimize the contact with the zombies if you wanted to survive.

 

But you don't have to take the whole issue too seriously. After all, it's a game and should be fun.

 

To me it sounds like you feel everything necessary to survival should be AT your base (delivered by the old a16 zombie loot train?) for you to pick up and that leaving your base to find things is not part of survival. To me, that sounds not only boring but unrealistic.

 

Actually, in the end, it should be exactly the way that you have everything in your base that you need to survive. That's how self-sufficiency works.

And in fact at the end of A16 I could make everything myself only from what I had in my base and in my mines.

 

And nobody said survival had to be fun. In corresponding movies the survivors never look like they had a lot of fun

 

Almost all zombie/apocolyptic stories regardless of genre (games, movies, books, etc) that I can think of have survivors entering and looting stores, homes, etc. to find what they need to survive and thrive. One exception I can think of is Day of the Dead (I believe... could have been Dawn) where they holed up in a shopping mall and had everything they needed there.

 

I'm not a fan of horror movies but isn't it the case that someone always dies during such actions ?

And if someone dies then he has clearly not survived

 

To me, having to go out to find more ammo/weapons/food/mats/people/medicine/etc is logical, realistic, and immersive. You manage risks, not eliminate them. The fact that it also makes for more a more entertaining game is a plus.

 

A sole survivor against about 6 billion zombies? You have a lot to eliminate

 

I don't expose myself to more danger than necessary "because the materials could also be obtained in a more harmless way". I can no longer get a small concrete base day 7 by grinding construction tools to get concrete. Therefore I CAN'T obtain it in a more harmless way early. It's just that I don't consider that a bad thing and you do. A16 was much easier for sure.

 

Once you have adapted, the Alpha 17 is not so much more difficult but just different.

I don't think that's necessarily bad, but I don't see killing zombies as a necessary part of surviving. Just as fun for the player.

 

I often did not go into a building week one. I had a forge day 1 or day 2. Made my cooking pot. Made my tools. Mined. Built my base and garden. It was safe and efficient. Wandering hordes and screamers delivered loot to me. It was also not nearly as fun as a17 for me.

 

I understand that. It's just not your kind of fun. And I accept that too and don't want to take it away from you.

 

My fun is mainly building and in Alpha 17 I think that has receded a bit into the background. I hope that it will get more love in the future with new blocks and new clean textures so that you can build a luxury base.

[RestInPieces]

I mean that you do not have to spend your points in the exact same order at the exact same time every time you play. Would I want to play the game without a forge ever? No. But neither do I feel compelled to get one at the soonest moment possible and play every run through always putting my points into intelligence first. If I find a working forge then I set up base nearby and use that forge and do more quests to get iron tools. If I can’t find a working forge then I start thinking about crafting a forge sooner. It isn’t about purposefully gimping myself as some have said. It is about focusing on a different mix of strengths. Someone earlier said that Perception is a waste but I like going strong in perception and using my bow and arrow and then being set up to improve one of my firearm categories as well.

 

I agree that more randomness in the game is better for more diversity in replays and would be for that as well. If they changed the ability to craft things back to recipes and used intelligence for other abilities I would not be upset at all.

 

Certainly, in my co-op games I found it pretty worthwhile to specialize into strength/perception/intelligence depending on my teammates (not so much in agility or fortitude but that is a discussion for another time and a matter of more perk balancing).

 

I couldn't possibly imagine an occasion though, where a solo player, or the int specialist in a team, won't spec into the forge/tools etc at their earliest convenience. I mean, considering its price the QOL/survival benefits are extraordinary. Even if that wasn't the case, a random range would still be better than a set point (like level 20) in terms of replayability wouldn't you think?

 

I am happy that A17 slows progression down, but I stand by/spam my opinion that recipes would be better off gated by exploration. TFP could still control the level range at which the player would get them. More reasons to explore, more diverse playthroughs.

 

Also about efficiency, I know that you don't let it bother you, but just think for a moment what the average joe will do, considering the incentives and spam/harass TFP to at least balance xp sources properly. You are a teacher damn it, you should already know what to expect!

[Cirion]

This is only true if the player chooses to play each time exactly the same way. You have figured out what you believe to be the optimal path for you and have decided you must follow that same path every playthrough. Not everyone plays that way.

 

Replay value will vary for different individuals.

 

Sorry, but no.

 

There will always be a "most efficient path" to play no matter what system is used. In A16 there was a most efficient way to play, in A17 there is a most efficient path to play. There will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, be a "meta", a most efficient path to play.

 

The difference is, back in A16, the meta and most efficient path was muddy, not clear, even taking the "most efficient way to play", you still didn't know when you'd get the minibike book, even if you played the same way every time for example. In addition, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have mentioned previously that many skills are deadlocked behind spending 23 points (or 23 level ups) before you can master it.

[Gazz]

The way I see it TFP want there cake and too eat it too. They want us to specialize but they specifically put the perks in key places all but forcing us deep into the attribute trees and then jacked up the price.

That's only because you view some of those as "key perks" so you are forced deep into certain trees. =)

 

I've seen vastly different definitions on what is a must have perk and what isn't.

[RestInPieces]

Btw sorry for being off-topic, but I wanted to ask - what happened to the stacking till the 1/2 of max attributes, death penalty?