Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

 

 

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face.... 😉

I remembered another. He wanted to change things so that you would be more likely to get the parts you need for crafting. 

[Kizzoap]

43 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

 

 

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face.... 😉

I think this is the kind of thing people mean when they say this forum is full of insufferable snarky yes men. 

[KhaineGB]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Your assumption might be based on your observation of them actively posting but it is still not correct. The developers mostly lurk and read. Responding is what they don’t have time for but reading is easy. I read all the time many things while on the go. A lot of what they do involves waiting for builds to compile and load and they read. They just don’t comment very often outside of the forums. Your assumption that they aren’t seeing the criticism of other sites is simply wrong. As I said, they often bring up the critical posts they read from many different sources. Lurking. That’s the piece you were missing in your calculation. 

 

*sigh* Alright then... if I really have to do this...

The assumption is correct because, despite what you said, there is quite literally not enough time in the day to monitor all of the things I said, even taking into account down time for compiles/renders/other things. There's just not.

This is why the company I work for has at LEAST 3 social media managers who literally scour all those places (those are the ones I know of). That's their full time job for 5 days/week and then some part timers for the weekend, and even THEY don't reply to everything (like you said the devs dont).

I never stated they don't see criticism "at all". I said they can't monitor all of those. Now, maybe I should've clarified a bit better and said "they can't monitor everything on all of those all of the time", which would be a fair assement.

But at the same time, YOU could've asked for clarification rather than making your own assumptions.

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I’ll grant you that the perception is real for those who have that. But plenty of people come and give their criticism and are not attacked or mocked. The unmoderated boards and forums are great for people to vent their dislike of the developers. I don’t deny that this forum has a friendly bias towards the developers. It is their house. 
 

What’s interesting is that I lurk in those other places and see how people treat each other there and it is way way beyond any mean treatment anyone gets around here. This forum is extremely tame. We challenge people on the things they claim and disagree with how they wish the game was different and sometimes people are snarky and witty in how they reply but it is sunshine and rainbows compared to the treatment a TFP supportive statement can produce there. That’s a straight fact. 

Being completely honest, and with no disrespect and no intent to cause offense...

The snark when people make suggestions, and some of your own replies (which come across as very rigid, and the assumptions that YOU make when replying to people), are exactly why people are put off, and why they think TFP won't listen. If you folks actually want feedback and criticism, this needs to be tempered... hard. Because it puts people off, including me.

If TFP do take suggestions and criticism, then I strongly suggest putting as such in the patch notes when a change is made. I'm only a modder and that's what I do, and my users appreciate it. The company I work for do something similar. In their case it usually says something "Based on player feed back and gathered statistics, X has been changed to Y."

And you know what? Users love it. It makes them feel listened to and valued.

[NukemDed]

50 minutes ago, Kizzoap said:

I think this is the kind of thing people mean when they say this forum is full of insufferable snarky yes men. 

yawn 

seen all this before. its a game. get a life. 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

35 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

 

*sigh* Alright then... if I really have to do this...

The assumption is correct because, despite what you said, there is quite literally not enough time in the day to monitor all of the things I said, even taking into account down time for compiles/renders/other things. There's just not.

This is why the company I work for has at LEAST 3 social media managers who literally scour all those places (those are the ones I know of). That's their full time job for 5 days/week and then some part timers for the weekend, and even THEY don't reply to everything (like you said the devs dont).

I never stated they don't see criticism "at all". I said they can't monitor all of those. Now, maybe I should've clarified a bit better and said "they can't monitor everything on all of those all of the time", which would be a fair assement.

But at the same time, YOU could've asked for clarification rather than making your own assumptions.

 

Being completely honest, and with no disrespect and no intent to cause offense...

The snark when people make suggestions, and some of your own replies (which come across as very rigid, and the assumptions that YOU make when replying to people), are exactly why people are put off, and why they think TFP won't listen. If you folks actually want feedback and criticism, this needs to be tempered... hard. Because it puts people off, including me.

If TFP do take suggestions and criticism, then I strongly suggest putting as such in the patch notes when a change is made. I'm only a modder and that's what I do, and my users appreciate it. The company I work for do something similar. In their case it usually says something "Based on player feed back and gathered statistics, X has been changed to Y."

And you know what? Users love it. It makes them feel listened to and valued.

Everything you said I agree with 100% like honestly - I too am just a modder and modpack dev honestly; all I need is some simple transparency. I don't need to know everything just detailed cliff notes of major changes. just being told we changed x due to y feedback would actually be heavily appreciated.

2 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

yawn 

seen all this before. its a game. get a life. 

Example of snarky and mean.

Edited May 22, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[NukemDed]

no just bored of the same old tripe.

i thought this thread was to be informed about and to discuss what changes,  note changes,  we can expect in the next iteration of this game not a place to have egos stroked.

this 'you said i said something that he said and i disagree that she thought you misread my post' carry on is pointless.

and boring. i wastes my time trying to glean something whorthwhile about the game.

and sorry moderators you do seem to fan those flames by engaging in the arguements.  everyone always seems to want to be right all the time.

except lazman and fataal - they seems are always on topic.

this will.probably see me with another snap from a mod but i feel it needs to be said.

Edited May 22, 2022 by NukemDed (see edit history)

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

9 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

no just bored of the same old tripe.

i thought this thread was to be informed about and to discuss what changes,  note changes,  we can expect in the next iteration of this game not a place to have egos stroked.

this 'you said i said something that he said and i disagree that she thought you misread my post' carry on is pointless.

and boring. i wastes my time trying to glean something whorthwhile about the game.

and sorry moderators you do seem to fan those flames by engaging in the arguements.  everyone always seems to want to be right all the time.

except lazman and fataal - they seems are always on topic.

this will.probably see me with another snap from a mod but i feel it needs to be said.

- If you are bored of tripe block the internet.
- What do you mean by stroked egos?
- The thread is general discussion of a21 (This includes feelings opinions and questions.)
- I agree that carrying on is pointless.
- At no point have I felt the mods fan the flames and only a few people have been super flamey ( A flamey action is one purposefully meant to insult or cause disruption. )
- Snaping solves nothing; just step back.

On that note I have nothing left to say.

[ArmoredStone]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

You want the community to be game designer. Were many games designed that way and what happened to them? I think there was mention of such a game. Was that game a major success in the end, does anyone know?

 

Will you like such a community-designed game even though the community you were part of decided everything different than you voted? 😉

You seem very confident that there are no successful games designed, heavily influenced by their communities.

 

Games heavily influenced by communities and mod-makers (taken just from a glance at my steam library and wishlist):

Rust, Scum, Satisfactory, Space Engineers, Eco, Rimworld, Don't Starve, Battlebit, Raft, Project Zomboid, Stranded Deep, Ravenfield, probably hundreds more I don't care to keep writing down to prove a point. 

 

And what point are you trying to prove by the second paragraph? The entire purpose of a poll system is to appeal to the majority of players. You arguing that the devs should do whatever they want and the community should just deal with it, would likely result in the game NOT appealing to as many people as it potentially could. That paragraph literally made no sense.

 

Oh, and a passive-aggressive winky face 😉

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

How weird... that's the same reason I don't go on those platforms to state my opinion (I don't want to be attacked and labeled "fanboy" without them even considering my point of view because of their bias).

 

7 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP.

BTW: congratulations on looking like an arrogant arse-hole and probably insulting every single person here on the forums. You can take your "I'm a great modder and I can say whatever I want to anybody" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, dude! 

 

The presumption (from you or others) that everyone who comes here and honestly agrees with or trusts TFP, is a mindless fanboy, boot-licker or whatever other derogatory word you like to use, that in itself tells me what kind of arrogant person you are.

 

This is just a game, FFS! It's TFP's game: if they ruin it I'd be sorry, if they make it great, I'd be happy, but that's it, doesn't change my life one bit.

I don't wake up in the morning hoping to praise The Fun Pimps name  and I certainly don't get paid for saying good things about this game.

(@Devs: now that I think about it, my Bank Account Number is... )

 

When they bring up new stuff, I'm open-minded (this "ancient" word that has been apparently lost in the dust of ages).

 

Spoiler

I'm always amused to see people fighting "noble" battles for their "rights" on game forums up to the last spill of blood (see @ArmoredStone).

Yet, in real life, they have their fundamental rights being stripped down by the governments they elect, and most of them say nothing about it.

 

Oh, and by the way... this is nothing personal, it's just my opinion, you know. 

 

[KhaineGB]

57 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

BTW: congratulations on looking like an arrogant arse-hole and probably insulting every single person here on the forums. You can take your "I'm a great modder and I can say whatever I want to anybody" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, dude! 

 

The presumption (from you or others) that everyone who comes here and honestly agrees with or trusts TFP, is a mindless fanboy, boot-licker or whatever other derogatory word you like to use, that in itself tells me what kind of arrogant person you are.

This.

This is why people don't like coming to the forums. I'm not being an "arrogant arse-hole". I'm being polite and discussing. If you don't like that, that's a you problem. I don't consider myself a "great modder" or even a good "content creator." I'm a tit with a keyboard and internet access just like everyone else.

But what I quoted? That's just being an insulting, pretentious git.

And THAT is the attitude a lot of people feel is present on these forums, especially in topics such as this one. And THAT is why people don't like to come here.

In other words: Adjust your attitude.

And as for my "presumption", it's literally what I've been told by other people. Did I think that in the past? Yes, yes I did. Many years ago. Before I started modding, which is why I didn't participate here much. Therefore, the rest of your sentence is literally just being insulting by calling me arrogant when I'm simply repeating WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Again, if you don't like it, fine. But now you are literally doing exactly why people say they won't come here. You're not contributing.  You're not making the forum a better place.

Edited May 22, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Tete1805]

To add a little bit to what Khaine says, in my own very humble opinion, sometimes, people may come to make a simple (very subjective) point and they're often welcomed by a methodical deconstruction (looking at moderators also here).

Edited May 22, 2022 by Tete1805 (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

2 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

 I'm a tit with a keyboard 

 

Finally found something we agree on.

[Callum123456789]

i wont lie this thread went from ooooo look an a21 feature being displayed to quite a hostile place quickly i think we should let our opinions of the game be displayed but respect each others opinions its absolutely childish your suggestion may or may not be a good or bad thing but i respect you for seeing how you think x or y should work we cant just flat out tell the devs what to do as they own the rights to the game and they make the final decisions can we all just get along and stop arguing about pointless things please as toxic environments will just lead to less ideas being made by users look for the past 3 pages and think to yourself do you really think someone would want to make a suggestion if all they see is that crap?

[mstdv inc]

13 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these, but if you actually tell people to go to the forums and make their grievances in a polite and constructive manner, you know what the typical response is?

"There's no point. They won't listen and the forum is full of TFP <insert descriptive noun for supporters here which may or may not be polite>".

And I also know they can't listen to everyone. If they did, the game would never be done. The problem is, changes like this are perceived as uncessary. TFP have a habit of doing MAJOR changes (and this is) when only a slight tweak is needed. Which means folks get annoyed, and it drags out the development process.

Personally, I'm still on the side of "This is a completely unecessary change" but with a side of "I'm going to see how it plays."

 

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

I've been following development news reviews for quite some time. Most of the criticism on social media has come from people who don't (and shouldn't) understand how the game is developed, its mechanics, and the overall direction of the game.
If you read this "criticism", then some want to make a space fantasy out of the game, others want hardcore horror, others want a PVP server for 100 people and anime girl skins.
When they complain about optimization, you ask them WHAT EXACTLY OPTIMIZATION should TFP do? Most of them either don’t answer or just say there SHOULD be more fps in the game, simply because the next game from the AAA studio has more fps. They don’t care that there are no neighboring games completely destructible world, they don't care that TFP is not AAA studio, they don't care about anything at all, they just demand for their few dollars that the game be made the way they want.
When you tell them about early access, the answer is that they are again owed something.
On the other hand, most of the people who are active in the game development branches understand the basic concept of the game and its mechanics, so these people behave much more restrained when they offer or criticize something.
Therefore, in my opinion, the opinion of hundreds of people from the forum is much more valuable than the opinion of thousands of people from social networks.

[Roland]

14 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these

 

Perhaps I did assume too much from your words but here is the controversial part of your original post. You were NOT quoting someone else who said the forum was full of blindly supporting people. That is clearly you stating what you believe. Maybe you were intending to convey a quote but when you say "He is right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP" that is different than saying "I hear from a lot of people who say that..."

 

If you want to step back from that statement and now say that you don't really believe it but you were just informing us what other people are saying, that would be nice to hear.

 

Secondly, this direct quote from you really sends the message that criticism here gets shouted down and so the blind support here is all that TFP sees. You did not follow this up with a statement that you don't expect them to read everything posted on other social media sites, you said they obviously cannot moniter them. My response to you was that they do monitor all the ones you listed. Of course, they don't read every single post ever typed but they are not only listening to what they read here. They read lots of criticism from many sources. They are an international team with programmers and testers that live in different countries and so they often post what they see on their more local social media in our team meetings.

 

I admit they do not have a team of readers combing the internet for all the feedback they can get. But you were obviously implying that their only exposure to feedback is here where everyone just claps and nothing critical can be read because of all the blind support. That was you sharing your opinion and not quoting anyone else. Then, in follow up posts when people responded negatively to you calling them blind supporters you hedged saying you were only quoting perspectives you read in other social media sites. When I pointed out that they DO monitor social media and read plenty of criticism thats when you took things to the extreme and moved from "they can't monitor other sites" to "they can't possibly read the entire internet". I never said they could read the entire internet and neither did you originally. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Trankitas]

6 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

When they bring up new stuff, I'm open-minded (this "ancient" word that has been apparently lost in the dust of ages).

 

This is really hard to find, hopefully the majority of the people have this same approach towards new alphas.

Let's let TFP do their game, we can test it when it releases (alpha21), then make conclusions. 

 

If you like it: Play it alone, with friends and family, PvP, and be happy.
If you don't: Opt-in for an older alpha or just don't play it anymore until gold, then you can play it again and see how it feels.

[JCrook1028]

17 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

Apparently I'm an idiot for thinking that paying developers for a game should imply an obligation on the developers to build the game based off of feedback from the buyers.

You said it succinctly.

16 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

I paid for the game to take part in the development of it,

No, you paid to have the ability to play the game as THEY made it. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Roland]

8 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

Games heavily influenced by communities and mod-makers (taken just from a glance at my steam library and wishlist):

Rust, Scum, Satisfactory, Space Engineers, Eco, Rimworld, Don't Starve, Battlebit, Raft, Project Zomboid, Stranded Deep, Ravenfield, probably hundreds more I don't care to keep writing down to prove a point. 

 

I assure you that if those games made changes that the majority voted for it was because the community desires aligned with their own. If the devs had felt strongly against whatever popular opinion had won, they would have done what they felt best anyway. Developers have that title because they are the decision makers end of story. If you want to fall for the public relations stunt of an opinion poll that supposedly directs development of the game that's up to you. But I don't believe it for a second.

 

Besides, it would still result in the same. You feel angry and marginalized because you weren't part of the decision making process. Well if you voted in a poll and didn't gain the majority, you would still feel angry and marginalized. People whose wishes didn't get chosen don't just sit back and say, "I'm glad the democratic process has resulted in a better game. I guess what I wanted wasn't best"

 

No, they complain that the devs listened to the loud screams of idiots and sold out their vision for the lure of money trying to appeal to the mainstream and fill their pockets with cash and thus ruined their game. Devs can't win with people who are unwilling to go with change. If they listen to their own team then they are horrible people who hate their customers. If they listen to a majority then they are sell outs who just want to attract the majority to their game for cash. lol

[Matt115]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I assure you that if those games made changes that the majority voted for it was because the community desires aligned with their own. If the devs had felt strongly against whatever popular opinion had won, they would have done what they felt best anyway. Developers have that title because they are the decision makers end of story. If you want to fall for the public relations stunt of an opinion poll that supposedly directs development of the game that's up to you. But I don't believe it for a second.

 

Besides, it would still result in the same. You feel angry and marginalized because you weren't part of the decision making process. Well if you voted in a poll and didn't gain the majority, you would still feel angry and marginalized. People whose wishes didn't get chosen don't just sit back and say, "I'm glad the democratic process has resulted in a better game. I guess what I wanted wasn't best"

 

No, they complain that the devs listened to the loud screams of idiots and sold out their vision for the lure of money trying to appeal to the mainstream and fill their pockets with cash and thus ruined their game. Devs can't win with people who are unwilling to go with change. If they listen to their own team then they are horrible people who hate their customers. If they listen to a majority then they are sell outs who just want to attract the majority to their game for cash. lol

Well i agree with you about that

[pApA^LeGBa]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

I've got to be crazy to jump into the LBL/LBD conversation. Honestly, I'm easy. Both have appeal, as do probably some other approaches.

 

LBD seems great for things like using weapons, picking locks. I'm not so sure I like it for crafting. How many stone axes do I have to craft and scrap to learn how to make an iron axe? That seems odd. I'd have seen metal tools before the apocalypse. LBD seems like a decent way to slowly improve the quality of what I know to craft.

 

That can be done with a hybrid of LBD and perks. Like Darkness Falls does it. Crafting and things like SexyRexy, Iron gut and such is done by putting skill points into perks wich are level gated so you can´t put in 5 points into tool crafting at day 2. Action skilly are leveled by using the tool/weapon and do have perks related to them where you need to put points into it, like blunt weapons has pummel pete, where you skill the weapon itself by using it and can get extra advantages by putting points into pummel pete. 

 

A mix of LBD/LBL sounds like a good idea also. By the looks of what was posted about the LBL system it just seems like certain playstyles will be punished if you don´t go out of your way and do things that are your least favorite part of the game for builders/miners. If that changes i am all in. Restricting the way how to play and i am out and hoping for mods. If mods can´t solve this, it´s time for a new game we can play together that let´s us play however we want.

Edited May 22, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

This.

This is why people don't like coming to the forums. I'm not being an "arrogant arse-hole". I'm being polite and discussing. If you don't like that, that's a you problem.

EXCUSE ME?? 

Are you effing high?? You just called me, along with the rest of this forum, mindless drones / clap-bots fanboys, and you THINK YOU'VE BEEN POLITE?? 

 

And then, after I obviously react to being insulted, you use MY reaction to stigmatize my "rudeness"?? Are you @%$#ing for real, man? 

I'm all open to discussion, just don't use words like fanboy, white knight or mindless drone and the such... I'm not the type who likes being insulted and do nothing.

 

Now, back on topic: I think the upcoming new crafting system is very promising because it sounds FUN!

 

Yes, fun. That's a parameter many game developers often forget about. I've read many discussions where people were talking about balancing, optimization, design and good game mechanics. But I've learned over the years that it's very rare to find developers like The Fun Pimps, because they're (or try to) true to their name. From my point of view, a lot of the decisions they make, even when they re-write something, is always in the service of finding the most fun option.

 

People play 7D2D because they have fun. Yes, they also rant about optimization, bugs, CTDs and whatnot, but they still come back because they know the game is fun.

That's my opinion on the game, and why I often find myself aligned with the devs' view. Also, like I said before, I try to be open-minded, and I cut them some slack and don't start bashing them just after they show us a concept until I've put my hands on it. It's called "informed opinion", you know.

[Mahnogard]

1 hour ago, Trankitas said:

This is really hard to find, hopefully the majority of the people have this same approach towards new alphas.

Let's let TFP do their game, we can test it when it releases (alpha21), then make conclusions. 

I started playing at the beginning of A16. It only took a couple of alpha cycles for me to realize that my initial kneejerk reaction to any big changes was a waste of energy because those initial impressions had zero relevance to the gameplay experience once it actually dropped and I started playing with whatever new stuff there was. (Well, okay, that first round of leveled loot changes was predictably awkward but it's a distant memory.)

 

I enjoy the dev diaries because I have learned to read them instead of just doomscrolling. 

[Roland]

12 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

By the looks of what was posted about the LBL system it just seems like certain playstyles will be punished if you don´t go out of your way and do things that are your least favorite part of the game for builders/miners. If that changes i am all in. Restricting the way how to play and i am out and hoping for mods. If mods can´t solve this, it´s time for a new game we can play together that let´s us play however we want.

 

So...what holy grail game are we talking about...?

[Matt115]

54 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

So...what holy grail game are we talking about...?

Newsstand owner simulator XD

[Roland]

Just now, Matt115 said:

Newsstand owner simulator XD

From the look of your avatar, that game is way too confining. Plus, I don't like to deal with the news. Do the developers of that newsstand game force me to deal with the news when I what I find fun to do is to search the nearby gutters for bottlecaps?

Edited May 22, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)