Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[ArmoredStone]

6 minutes ago, Mahnogard said:

No Man's Sky said it would have X and heavily implied Y and Z. It released... differently. And I say that as someone who has loved NMS since release, because I didn't care about MP, which was one of the biggest complaints. But yeah, there was a massive uproar because of people expecting something other than what they got, in part due to features being missing or misrepresented, and in smaller part due to hype disease. And part of the reason for the way NMS released was due to Sony, but over here we don't have a publisher overlord breathing down the dev's necks. They get to take the time they need to make the game they want to make.

 

If they didn't care, this thread that you're posting in wouldn't exist, or it would be locked to comments. But just like in normal life, people can care about someone's opinion and still choose to do what they want to.

 

It takes a certain kind of gamer to be okay with this type of development cycle. I get that. Not everyone will be thrilled, and I don't blame you or anyone else who wants it otherwise. But people who disagree with you aren't wrong, they just aren't you. Things have changed and evolved over the many years. I want the devs to make the game they are passionate about, because if they don't, I think we all lose. A development journey that goes on this long, no matter how you feel about it, doesn't just run on money, it runs on love for the work. If it didn't, they'd be gone by now and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Also, I'm not a knight. I am a queen. It says so on my base.

Thank you for constructing the best argument so far, but I still think that, as paying customers, we should have a say on how this game should be developed. They claim to try to appeal to the masses, but they don't take any time to actually heed any concerns, or have any form of vote/poll on how we want the game to play. The A21 devblog said that everyone on the staff team liked the new update, which is all well and good, but that's a sample size of 20. I paid for the game to take part in the development of it, not to have my opinion cast to the side. Why can't the devs find passion in making a fantastic game that brings the most of 14 million paying customers joy, instead of only focusing on their 20 team members?

[ArmoredStone]

12 minutes ago, Trankitas said:

First of all, my opinions were accordingly received since my n°1 post.
Second: if you pay for a burger and you eat it very slow, you can't go one day later and ask the chef to change it, you already paid for the game and played it.
Third: I've seen a lot of egocentric forum members come and go, who think their opinion is the absolute truth and claim to speak "what the people want", they usually don't last very long.

Alright now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that my opinions on game features are "what the people want". All I want is to have the opinions of the community be involved more than they currently are. These are massive game changers, but none of these changes were based on what the community collectively wants.

 

And that's a fun analogy, but if I paid for a burger that tasted great, but gave me food poisoning the next day, you bet I'm going back in to complain.

Also, did you ever stop to consider that those people leave right away because it's apparent that the forum is constructed with a hive-mind that TFP can do no wrong and don't need to consider the opinions of others? I even have a super-moderator implying I don't have friends when I complain about balancing for multiplayer servers. I don't doubt for a second that "trouble-makers" aren't just removed from the forums, if they aren't already bullied out by white knights defending the all-powerful TFP. Take a minute to consider that.

[Mahnogard]

18 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Thank you for constructing the best argument so far, but I still think that, as paying customers, we should have a say on how this game should be developed.

I don't, because I'd be terrible at advising them. Not only do I not make games, I mod the heck out of everything I get my hands on and don't play like most people here so I'm not representative of anything but me. Even most of my favorite forum members are not people I would want driving this bus. 

 

Also, you might have noticed that as a group, we struggle to agree on anything. Even what day it is because pedants and time zones.  We've also proven that we can't be trusted with even implied information without causing an uproar over something that was never even said. Don't get me wrong, I love us, we have an unmatched charm as a community, but we're all over the place, and listening to all the nonsense we come up with would also be leaving out all the players that spend their time in game instead of on the forums. 

 

That said, we do have a say, just maybe not the way you want. While they do pay attention to what we say, I suspect that they pay more attention to what we do. Gamesparks wasn't added just for giggles. Forum posts in various places also offer a good demonstration of how people are actually playing the game. And when there is significant feedback about, well, anything, you can bet it is noticed. But if a bunch of people are complaining about something but the data says the effect of that thing is minimal, then it's not going on a hotlist.

 

You want direct solicitation of feedback via polls, etc. Some dev / pubs do that. I play Empyrion, they do that. I honestly think it's been to their detriment. (After all, Empyrion is the game that came out of early access but "not really, it's just a formality..." Grrrr) Because again, you're only hearing from the forum users / active community members, you never hear from the people who just buy games to play them and don't participate in the social chaos.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Mahnogard (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

13 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Thank you for constructing the best argument so far, but I still think that, as paying customers, we should have a say on how this game should be developed. They claim to try to appeal to the masses, but they don't take any time to actually heed any concerns, or have any form of vote/poll on how we want the game to play. The A21 devblog said that everyone on the staff team liked the new update, which is all well and good, but that's a sample size of 20. I paid for the game to take part in the development of it, not to have my opinion cast to the side. Why can't the devs find passion in making a fantastic game that brings the most of 14 million paying customers joy, instead of only focusing on their 20 team members?

 

Last I checked steam reviews, most people approve of the game.  Not just 20 team members.

[Trankitas]

13 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Alright now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that my opinions on game features are "what the people want". All I want is to have the opinions of the community be involved more than they currently are. These are massive game changers, but none of these changes were based on what the community collectively wants.

 

And that's a fun analogy, but if I paid for a burger that tasted great, but gave me food poisoning the next day, you bet I'm going back in to complain.

Also, did you ever stop to consider that those people leave right away because it's apparent that the forum is constructed with a hive-mind that TFP can do no wrong and don't need to consider the opinions of others? I even have a super-moderator implying I don't have friends when I complain about balancing for multiplayer servers. I don't doubt for a second that "trouble-makers" aren't just removed from the forums, if they aren't already bullied out by white knights defending the all-powerful TFP. Take a minute to consider that.

I mean you have 14 posts and claim TFP never consider others opinions (just because they didn't considered YOUR opinion) and you also said 

 

28 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

I paid for the game to take part in the development of it, not to have my opinion cast to the side.

That's not how it works at all brother, if you want to take part in the development of the game you have to become a Dev and apply for a job at TFP.

 

I'm not trying to bully you at all, i'm sorry if it felt like it. I'm just trying to give you a little advice on how things works.

No hard feelings I hope!

Edited May 21, 2022 by Trankitas (see edit history)

[ArmoredStone]

7 minutes ago, Mahnogard said:

I don't, because I'd be terrible at advising them. Not only do I not make games, I mod the heck out of everything I get my hands on and don't play like most people here so I'm not representative of anything but me. Even most of my favorite forum members are not people I would want driving this bus. 

 

Also, you might have noticed that as a group, we struggle to agree on anything. Even what day it is because pedants and time zones.  We've also proven that we can't be trusted with even implied information without causing an uproar over something that was never even said. Don't get me wrong, I love us, we have an unmatched charm as a community, but we're all over the place, and listening to all the nonsense we come up with would also be leaving out all the players that spend their time in game instead of on the forums. 

 

That said, we do have a say, just maybe not the way you want. While they do pay attention to what we say, I suspect that they pay more attention to what we do. Gamesparks wasn't added just for giggles. Forum posts in various places also offer a good demonstration of how people are actually playing the game. And when there is significant feedback about, well, anything, you can bet it is noticed. But if a bunch of people are complaining about something but the data says the effect of that thing is minimal, then it's not going on a hotlist.

 

You want direct solicitation of feedback via polls, etc. Some dev / pubs do that. I play Empyrion, they do that. I honestly think it's been to their detriment. (After all, Empyrion is the game that came out of early access but "not really, it's just a formality..." Grrrr) Because again, you're only hearing from the forum users / active community members, you never hear from the people who just buy games to play them and don't participate in the social chaos.

Your first paragraph basically just tells me that you don't want to give your opinion because it's different from others...that's the entire point of an opinion.

And there are better ways to implement a poll. They have a tool in game for reporting a bug, why can't they put the newsletters and polls in game and have anyone be able to vote from the main menu/pause menu? Then categorize those votes based on the amount of play time the player has so more seasoned players opinions are heard loudest vs the guy that just bought the game on sale and thinks tanks would be cool lol. There are ways they could do it.

1 minute ago, Trankitas said:

I mean you have 14 posts and claim TFP never consider others opinions (just because they didn't consider YOUR opinion) and you also said 

 

That's not how it works at all brother, if you want to take part in the development of the game you have to become a Dev and apply for a job at TFP.

 

I'm not trying to bully you at all, i'm sorry if it felt like it. I'm just trying to give you a little advice on how things works.

No hard feelings I hope!

If they had a poll system, I wouldn't even be bringing this up. How many people asked for a "Learn by Looting" system? I challenge you to find someone that asked for that.

It could work if TFP cared about their communities' opinions and asked about new ideas before working on them.

And why are you bothering to apologize? You already made it clear you're just waiting for me to get bored and leave (definitely unrelated to the hive-mind in this forum). Don't pretend to be the nice guy now. I'm literally here trying to make a point that YOUR opinion, as well as everyone else's, should be better listened to.

[Mahnogard]

2 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Your first paragraph basically just tells me that you don't want to give your opinion because it's different from others...that's the entire point of an opinion.

No, that's not what I was saying at all. I give my opinion, I just don't necessarily want or expect them to act on it because I recognize that I am an outlier in terms of how I usually play. I want what's good for the game, not just what's good for me. If I had to pick, the ideal game would be exactly halfway between how I play and how Roland plays. I just don't think that "design by committee" is a good strategy for game development.

 

[ArmoredStone]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Learning by looting is a horrible idea for MP Coop. We have usually 2 people who don´t loot a loot doing building and mining, wich they do enjoy a lot. They do go out fighting and looting, but it´s their least favorite part of the game.  If they wanna use different weapons than us who go out looting they do have a big problem. 

 

They now have to choose to either do something they don´t enjoy as much more often or they can´t choose wich weapons to use.

 

Another step into forcing players to play the game in a certain way. Meh. Just hope that mods can fix this. It´s actually sad that you need mods to maintain the freedom to choose your playstyle.

Unfortunately, unless we're developers of the game, our opinions don't seem to matter. Or at least this is what I've gathered from my experiences today with some of these forum members.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, ArmoredStone said:

Apparently I'm an idiot for thinking that paying developers for a game should imply an obligation on the developers to build the game based off of feedback from the buyers. If you guys truly think that is wrong, then why was there a massive uproar about No Man's Sky? And why did the developers take time that they didn't need to to develop the game to the communities' liking? Those developers made the game they made. They had no contractual obligation to fix anything. That's an example of developers that actually care about their community, and deliver on a product.

Also, the argument about DLC not existing is nullified by the fact that these devs still have the game in ALPHA, with a ton of broken promises of content they told us would be coming. If they lied about adding content, and started selling other content, that could arguably be grounds for legal action.

But hey, if you guys like paying for a game with developers that don't care about your opinion, more power to ya

Can't wait for the white knights to respond to this xD

What broken promises? Everything from kickstart is added or  going to be added. 

 

52 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

If you enjoy paying for your opinion to be ignored, there are better ways to do it.

Well use to it that not everyone think that your opinion is interesting. this is norma.

32 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Thank you for constructing the best argument so far, but I still think that, as paying customers, we should have a say on how this game should be developed. They claim to try to appeal to the masses, but they don't take any time to actually heed any concerns, or have any form of vote/poll on how we want the game to play. The A21 devblog said that everyone on the staff team liked the new update, which is all well and good, but that's a sample size of 20. I paid for the game to take part in the development of it, not to have my opinion cast to the side. Why can't the devs find passion in making a fantastic game that brings the most of 14 million paying customers joy, instead of only focusing on their 20 team members?

... you joined in 2016 right? it was time to talk about how people want to play. Now it's too late and game is almost finished. I lot of people (i don't) how crafting system will be workling - you can find this in A21 overflow.  i can argue why magasines working in that way is bad idea but i have to say that most people that wrote a comment like this change.

 

16 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Alright now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that my opinions on game features are "what the people want". All I want is to have the opinions of the community be involved more than they currently are. These are massive game changers, but none of these changes were based on what the community collectively wants.

 

And that's a fun analogy, but if I paid for a burger that tasted great, but gave me food poisoning the next day, you bet I'm going back in to complain.

Also, did you ever stop to consider that those people leave right away because it's apparent that the forum is constructed with a hive-mind that TFP can do no wrong and don't need to consider the opinions of others? I even have a super-moderator implying I don't have friends when I complain about balancing for multiplayer servers. I don't doubt for a second that "trouble-makers" aren't just removed from the forums, if they aren't already bullied out by white knights defending the all-powerful TFP. Take a minute to consider that.

And... are involved - you can check when you will been reading older topic connected with older alpha. Well burger is not good example better is car - you can get a opinion when car is still project but when car is production stage it's too late to make changes except situation like - change if forced by safety or there was a big construction mistake.  Well trouble makers are removed only if they will do something bad like being toxic or talk about political stuff . I complain a lot but.... as you see i'm still active. About friends - do you played in older cods? i mean BO1 --> you could be often kicked if you was playing wrong --> using knifing zombies too soon, using high dmg weapons ( most people was focused to get max possible number of points on low level as possible). So if your friends play in 7dtd  using min/max  style and you don't like this you can : 1. talk with them about that 2. don't play with them.  This is not devs fault. In factorio yoy can win a game in few hours if you have strict to plan friends or you can be frustrated after 30 hours because they prefer to make car race  or using building to make emoji.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

I understand it's your game, but WE are the ones that have been giving you your paychecks.

 

36 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Alright now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that my opinions on game features are "what the people want".

 

[Matt115]

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Learning by looting is a horrible idea for MP Coop. We have usually 2 people who don´t loot a lot doing building and mining, wich they do enjoy a lot. They do go out fighting and looting, but it´s their least favorite part of the game.  If they wanna use different weapons than us who go out looting they do have a big problem. 

 

They now have to choose to either do something they don´t enjoy as much more often or they can´t choose wich weapons to use.

 

Another step into forcing players to play the game in a certain way. Meh. Just hope that mods can fix this. It´s actually sad that you need mods to maintain the freedom to choose your playstyle.

Well LBL is bad but LBD was much better but it forced to do this same thing -- > mike will be mining and building because he have more skills connected with this, Bob will hunt,  farming and gathering trees etc  and bill will focus on crafting and looting. Mike will be sniper during bloodmoon, Bob heavy machine gun, Bill will be spaming molotves

 

25 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Book stores will be hot targets as well.  😎

Nice ^^ i hope libraries will get attention too 

24 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Your first paragraph basically just tells me that you don't want to give your opinion because it's different from others...that's the entire point of an opinion.

And there are better ways to implement a poll. They have a tool in game for reporting a bug, why can't they put the newsletters and polls in game and have anyone be able to vote from the main menu/pause menu? Then categorize those votes based on the amount of play time the player has so more seasoned players opinions are heard loudest vs the guy that just bought the game on sale and thinks tanks would be cool lol. There are ways they could do it.

If they had a poll system, I wouldn't even be bringing this up. How many people asked for a "Learn by Looting" system? I challenge you to find someone that asked for that.

It could work if TFP cared about their communities' opinions and asked about new ideas before working on them.

And why are you bothering to apologize? You already made it clear you're just waiting for me to get bored and leave (definitely unrelated to the hive-mind in this forum). Don't pretend to be the nice guy now. I'm literally here trying to make a point that YOUR opinion, as well as everyone else's, should be better listened to.

Poll in game? No thanks i see this in few games and it was never working too good.  because "categorize of votes".... working on forum -- it's logical that people who spend a lot of time hear know more that guy who wrote 10 posts right? and such gathering of opinion on server is often too. Ofc there are a ways but there is go to Chine from France on foot. 

Well nobody asked because.... nobody know about because it's pretty unique idea. Well if know hornets were cutted because community hate them, there will be change in quest because community asking for this - so TFP is  listening.

 

6 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

Unfortunately, unless we're developers of the game, our opinions don't seem to matter. Or at least this is what I've gathered from my experiences today with some of these forum members.

Our opinions mean a lot ( thanks TFP for newsstands)

3 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@BenZ0 That works if they wanna use the same weapons that i use. If they wanna use different ones, they have to go looting themselves a lot more than they do now. None of us looters does use rifles or the sledgehammer. Our builder loves them. That´s gonna be a problem because i won´t find a lot of rifle/sledgehammer magazines as i am not specced into them. And that gets worse and worse the more i level my weapon. The higher my weapon skill is the lower is the amount of magazines i find for other skills. 

Well one person can make sledgehammers and give them to rest. So this can works in that way. Bob making shotguns, Will machineguns, Tom sledgehammers

[ArmoredStone]

7 minutes ago, Mahnogard said:

No, that's not what I was saying at all. I give my opinion, I just don't necessarily want or expect them to act on it because I recognize that I am an outlier in terms of how I usually play. I want what's good for the game, not just what's good for me. If I had to pick, the ideal game would be exactly halfway between how I play and how Roland plays. I just don't think that "design by committee" is a good strategy for game development.

 

But you still could be a contributor to deciding something such as the leveling and perk system. I guess we have differing opinions on how game development should be approached, but hypothetically, say a poll was made that said something like:

We're considering changing how leveling and progression work. We would like your opinions on what we should do.
1. Keep the current system of "Learn by Level-up", where all skills and perks are chosen and limited only by experience points.
2. Revisit the old "Learn by Doing" system, and revise it to be more intuitive than "crafting hundreds of wooden clubs to make a better club"
3. Try a new leveling idea which requires you to loot containers to obtain skills. This idea was recently presented and we have the framework drawn out for it. 

And this would be accompanied by a brief summary of the Learn by Looting concept

Would you feel inclined to vote on that from the in-game menu/pause menu? 

[ArmoredStone]

29 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well use to it that not everyone think that your opinion is interesting. this is norma.

... you joined in 2016 right? it was time to talk about how people want to play. Now it's too late and game is almost finished. I lot of people (i don't) how crafting system will be workling - you can find this in A21 overflow.  i can argue why magasines working in that way is bad idea but i have to say that most people that wrote a comment like this change.

 

And... are involved - you can check when you will been reading older topic connected with older alpha. Well burger is not good example better is car - you can get a opinion when car is still project but when car is production stage it's too late to make changes except situation like - change if forced by safety or there was a big construction mistake.  

What do you mean it's almost finished? Is there any evidence from TFP that they plan on releasing soon? They're going into Alpha 21, after 9 years of development on Steam alone (probably 11 or 12 years total). You think it's fair to say that the game is nearing completion when the devs are changing one of the biggest gameplay frameworks (the skill system) 9+ years into development???

[Matt115]

17 minutes ago, ArmoredStone said:

What do you mean it's almost finished? Is there any evidence from TFP that they plan on releasing soon? They're going into Alpha 21, after 9 years of development on Steam alone (probably 11 or 12 years total). You think it's fair to say that the game is nearing completion when the devs are changing one of the biggest gameplay frameworks (the skill system) 9+ years into development???

Well : yes - 7dtd will get gold in next maybe 2 next years. That's a plan and  i will write what left to do before gold:

1. bandits

2. water

 

Story + vr+ console version will be adder after gold

[KhaineGB]

1 hour ago, Trankitas said:

That's not how it works at all brother, if you want to take part in the development of the game you have to become a Dev and apply for a job at TFP.

 

I'm not trying to bully you at all, i'm sorry if it felt like it. I'm just trying to give you a little advice on how things works.

No hard feelings I hope!

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these, but if you actually tell people to go to the forums and make their grievances in a polite and constructive manner, you know what the typical response is?

"There's no point. They won't listen and the forum is full of TFP <insert descriptive noun for supporters here which may or may not be polite>".

And I also know they can't listen to everyone. If they did, the game would never be done. The problem is, changes like this are perceived as uncessary. TFP have a habit of doing MAJOR changes (and this is) when only a slight tweak is needed. Which means folks get annoyed, and it drags out the development process.

Personally, I'm still on the side of "This is a completely unecessary change" but with a side of "I'm going to see how it plays."

 

4 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well : yes - 7dtd will get gold in next maybe 2 next years. That's a plan and  i will write what left to do before gold:

1. bandits

2. water

 

Story + vr+ console version will be adder after gold

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

Edited May 22, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Matt115]

3 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these, but if you actually tell people to go to the forums and make their grievances in a polite and constructive manner, you know what the typical response is?

"There's no point. They won't listen and the forum is full of TFP <insert descriptive noun for supporters here which may or may not be polite>".

And I also know they can't listen to everyone. If they did, the game would never be done. The problem is, changes like this are perceived as uncessary. TFP have a habit of doing MAJOR changes (and this is) when only a slight tweak is needed. Which means folks get annoyed, and it drags out the development process.

Personally, I'm still on the side of "This is a completely unecessary change" but with a side of "I'm going to see how it plays."

 

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

1. A lot of people here writing to me answers like " if you don't like X use mods" - so if TFP want to make 7dtd as base for mods like minecraft this mean.... most problems will be fixed by modders. 

They decided to change crafting - i don' think it is  good idea but a lot of people like this. 

2. Nope but i made mistake VR before gold story after

 

Expended story sounds  more like " RPG story" not FPS story 

[Roland]

17 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

The Kickstarter did have a disclaimer that some features might not be added until after official release. The features they thought at the time might come later was smoothed terrain but obviously they solved that ages ago. Point is they have some wiggle room to shift a few things to post release if needed.  I’m betting the story will be so. 
 

20 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP.

“Blindly support” is such a condescending phrase to say that those who criticize are aware of all the information while those who support are ignorant sheep. It’s true that we insist on a friendly atmosphere here and have zero tolerance for people being insulting to the developers— accusing them of being liars and cheats and lazy and inept. That doesn’t make us blind or unaware that some people aren’t going to enjoy all changes. Making a blanket statement that those who like and support TFP are blind is a pretty shallow  and baseless jibe. There have been lots of decisions I haven’t agreed with over the years and wasn’t silent about them but was able to discuss them without raging and ranting in a toxic manner. 
 

28 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism.

Yes, and they read through it a lot. Someone on the team is always posting a criticism they read on those other sites. Your assumption that they only pay attention to the forums where they always get patted on the head by sycophants is so off it’s almost like you are….well…blind. 
 

Those users don’t like to come here not because their opinions won’t be considered but because the level of toxicity of their language and tone that they like to use is not welcome. I’ve monitored those other sites as well and I see how terrible they are to any “fanboy” who speaks up. Here, people challenge their points and don’t tolerate their insults so it’s no wonder they stay away. But there are still people who come and give contrary opinions with respect and who are willing to discuss their criticisms civilly and their opinions remain. 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

@Roland Since you seem to have a head in the lobby of Fun Pimps is Vulkan still being worked on? Its been proven to be so much better than direct x as a gpu api.

Edited May 22, 2022 by P3rf3ctVZer0 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, ArmoredStone said:

But you still could be a contributor to deciding something such as the leveling and perk system. I guess we have differing opinions on how game development should be approached, but hypothetically, say a poll was made that said something like:

We're considering changing how leveling and progression work. We would like your opinions on what we should do.
1. Keep the current system of "Learn by Level-up", where all skills and perks are chosen and limited only by experience points.
2. Revisit the old "Learn by Doing" system, and revise it to be more intuitive than "crafting hundreds of wooden clubs to make a better club"
3. Try a new leveling idea which requires you to loot containers to obtain skills. This idea was recently presented and we have the framework drawn out for it. 

And this would be accompanied by a brief summary of the Learn by Looting concept

Would you feel inclined to vote on that from the in-game menu/pause menu? 

 

Sure, but would my opinion be an informed decision? At least one of the options I have never played and can't really judge.

 

I remember many changes to 7D2D in the last years that had been opposed by some players who later said that the change was actually good (not to say that everyone changed his mind, far from it).

 

And though I'm very much of the opinion that I would be a good game designer (everyone thinks he is, lets be frank here), I doubt that the majority of players is (and maybe I'm not either). If you asked all players whether more xp should be given out to make advancement faster, I'll bet that vote would succeed by a large margin. But I don't think that would be good for this game.

 

Also there were a lot more PvP players playing this game in the beginning (as a lot of young gamers nowadays are PvP players). If TFP just had asked for every step of the way this might be just another PvP game now.

 

You want the community to be game designer. Were many games designed that way and what happened to them? I think there was mention of such a game. Was that game a major success in the end, does anyone know?

 

Will you like such a community-designed game even though the community you were part of decided everything different than you voted? 😉

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Trankitas]

1 hour ago, KhaineGB said:

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these, but if you actually tell people to go to the forums and make their grievances in a polite and constructive manner, you know what the typical response is?

"There's no point. They won't listen and the forum is full of TFP <insert descriptive noun for supporters here which may or may not be polite>".

And I also know they can't listen to everyone. If they did, the game would never be done. The problem is, changes like this are perceived as uncessary. TFP have a habit of doing MAJOR changes (and this is) when only a slight tweak is needed. Which means folks get annoyed, and it drags out the development process.

Personally, I'm still on the side of "This is a completely unecessary change" but with a side of "I'm going to see how it plays."

 

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

Idk man...
I feel like everyone has concerns and hopes for the game, but at the end of the day, it's their game not ours, we're just here for the ride.
Plus: every change they made is for a reason, they have talented game designers so... maybe you'll say i'm a sheep, but i trust them.

Also, if they make a change that I don't want/like I can just opt-in for an older Alpha and have fun anyways, we have like 10 games in 1 because we can dance around all alpha versions.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Trankitas (see edit history)

[Roland]

4 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

You guys are aware that after the release of A20 back in December, you've lost nearly 50% of your players, correct?

No. Not even close. Players always drop off after the new smell of an update wears off. But each new update we break records of returning players so the player base is still growing.  The fact that we’ve settled to 30k which was a number we could only reach at an update spike shows we aren’t losing as many as we are gaining and retaining. 
 

5 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

I understand it's your game, but WE are the ones that have been giving you your paychecks.

Really? Did this game start up a subscription model when I wasn’t looking?  You paid to be able to play the game and you have. Nowhere was it stated that your one time payment of $25 (or less on sale) would put you on the decision making team. 
 

4 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

If you guys truly think that is wrong, then why was there a massive uproar about No Man's Sky?

Because the developers did not deliver on what they had advertised their game would have. It had nothing to do with customer polls or community consensus and feedback about what they wanted. You’re trying to rewrite history here to try and prove your point. The creator of NMS has always pursued his vision of the game. He just under delivered on what he shared at launch. He delivered later but that was him admittedly striving to do the right thing and not because he got the community involved to help him finish his game. 
 

4 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

But hey, if you guys like paying for a game with developers that don't care about your opinion, more power to ya

heheh…each and every game in my Steam library, PlayStation, Xbox, and Switch collection going back to Atari and Coleco was one I bought and played without one single developer asking me for my opinion. Thousands of dollars spent in my lifetime on video game entertainment from developers who never cared to ask me my opinion. Is that just me?  

3 hours ago, ArmoredStone said:

I even have a super-moderator implying I don't have friends when I complain about balancing for multiplayer servers.

I said you should find new people to play with that are less abusive. I never implied or stated that you have no friends. You were the one complaining that your friends yell at you when you open a container. I pointed out that they are not being friendly and that not all groups treat each other like that. Don’t try to spin that into me dissing you as a friendless person because you dared to criticize the lack of community polls for development. 
 

To be clear, I think you probably have lots of friends and probably a nice family. But your own description of the people you play the game with is something I would never put up with. I would take the passion you are using to criticize TFP and stand up for yourself in your gamer group or go find a new group who won’t yell at you. 
 

My point was the game doesn’t make people act that way. They’re just jerks. You deserve better. Anyone does. 

[KhaineGB]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

The Kickstarter did have a disclaimer that some features might not be added until after official release. The features they thought at the time might come later was smoothed terrain but obviously they solved that ages ago. Point is they have some wiggle room to shift a few things to post release if needed.  I’m betting the story will be so. 

 

Yep, it does. Went and checked.

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

“Blindly support” is such a condescending phrase to say that those who criticize are aware of all the information while those who support are ignorant sheep. It’s true that we insist on a friendly atmosphere here and have zero tolerance for people being insulting to the developers— accusing them of being liars and cheats and lazy and inept. That doesn’t make us blind or unaware that some people aren’t going to enjoy all changes. Making a blanket statement that those who like and support TFP are blind is a pretty shallow  and baseless jibe. There have been lots of decisions I haven’t agreed with over the years and wasn’t silent about them but was able to discuss them without raging and ranting in a toxic manner. 

 

No it's not. It's the public perception of the forum. If you suggest that folks come here, and give their input in a polite and well structured manner, the response is typically "There's no point because it's a TFP fanboy echo chamber."

I'm not kidding. Therefore the phrase is accurate, because that's seriously what a lot of players outside of the forum believe. If you don't like that, then efforts need to be made to change it.

 

It's that simple.

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Yes, and they read through it a lot. Someone on the team is always posting a criticism they read on those other sites. Your assumption that they only pay attention to the forums where they always get patted on the head by sycophants is so off it’s almost like you are….well…blind. 

Those users don’t like to come here not because their opinions won’t be considered but because the level of toxicity of their language and tone that they like to use is not welcome. I’ve monitored those other sites as well and I see how terrible they are to any “fanboy” who speaks up. Here, people challenge their points and don’t tolerate their insults so it’s no wonder they stay away. But there are still people who come and give contrary opinions with respect and who are willing to discuss their criticisms civilly and their opinions remain. 

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I am seriously not kidding. I've had people in my discord and twitter tell me that. I've also had folks tell me that on youtube and on facebook.

And I would re-read what I said, Roland. I did not assume they ONLY read the forums. I said they can't pay attention to all of the avenues I mentioned, which is true. It's a lot of time. Due to the fact the team MOSTLY respond here (I have seen Fataal and Kin in the 7 Days to Die - PC FB group), it is a fair and reasonable assumption. The only time I see TFP directly interact with fans is here, occasionally facebook and twitch (especially during the streamer event... i'm not counting Prime cos he's a nerd that always streams his own stuff )

Therefore my "assumption" is correct. They cannot possibly read every single piece of feedback on every single social media outlet that the players use, because there just isn't enough time in the day to do that AND work on the game AND have a life. That's straight fact.

1 hour ago, Trankitas said:

Idk man...
I feel like everyone has concerns and hopes for the game, but at the end of the day, it's their game not ours, we're just here for the ride.
Plus: every change they made is for a reason, they have talented game designers so... maybe you'll say i'm a sheep, but i trust them.

Also, if they make a change that I don't want/like I can just opt-in for an older Alpha and have fun anyways, we have like 10 games in 1 because we can dance around all alpha versions.

The problem is the "reason" is never discussed.

A lot of people would be less irritable when a change comes if it was. Personally I would LOVE to know the reasons from a straight up design perspective on WHY something was changed, but that's because I want to learn.

[Trankitas]

34 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

 

Yep, it does. Went and checked.

 

 

No it's not. It's the public perception of the forum. If you suggest that folks come here, and give their input in a polite and well structured manner, the response is typically "There's no point because it's a TFP fanboy echo chamber."

I'm not kidding. Therefore the phrase is accurate, because that's seriously what a lot of players outside of the forum believe. If you don't like that, then efforts need to be made to change it.

 

It's that simple.

 

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I am seriously not kidding. I've had people in my discord and twitter tell me that. I've also had folks tell me that on youtube and on facebook.

And I would re-read what I said, Roland. I did not assume they ONLY read the forums. I said they can't pay attention to all of the avenues I mentioned, which is true. It's a lot of time. Due to the fact the team MOSTLY respond here (I have seen Fataal and Kin in the 7 Days to Die - PC FB group), it is a fair and reasonable assumption. The only time I see TFP directly interact with fans is here, occasionally facebook and twitch (especially during the streamer event... i'm not counting Prime cos he's a nerd that always streams his own stuff )

Therefore my "assumption" is correct. They cannot possibly read every single piece of feedback on every single social media outlet that the players use, because there just isn't enough time in the day to do that AND work on the game AND have a life. That's straight fact.

The problem is the "reason" is never discussed.

A lot of people would be less irritable when a change comes if it was. Personally I would LOVE to know the reasons from a straight up design perspective on WHY something was changed, but that's because I want to learn.

I think Madmole said it was to stimulate more exploring and looting, maybe I invented it...

 

One reason I can think of is: the intelligence tree is broken on CO-OP games. If I only perk up intelligence i break the whole progression of my team, I can skip vehicles, make insane tech and horde bases.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, KhaineGB said:

Therefore my "assumption" is correct.

Your assumption might be based on your observation of them actively posting but it is still not correct. The developers mostly lurk and read. Responding is what they don’t have time for but reading is easy. I read all the time many things while on the go. A lot of what they do involves waiting for builds to compile and load and they read. They just don’t comment very often outside of the forums. Your assumption that they aren’t seeing the criticism of other sites is simply wrong. As I said, they often bring up the critical posts they read from many different sources. Lurking. That’s the piece you were missing in your calculation. 

 

1 hour ago, KhaineGB said:

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I’ll grant you that the perception is real for those who have that. But plenty of people come and give their criticism and are not attacked or mocked. The unmoderated boards and forums are great for people to vent their dislike of the developers. I don’t deny that this forum has a friendly bias towards the developers. It is their house. 
 

What’s interesting is that I lurk in those other places and see how people treat each other there and it is way way beyond any mean treatment anyone gets around here. This forum is extremely tame. We challenge people on the things they claim and disagree with how they wish the game was different and sometimes people are snarky and witty in how they reply but it is sunshine and rainbows compared to the treatment a TFP supportive statement can produce there. That’s a straight fact. 

[NukemDed]

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

 

 

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face.... 😉

Edited May 22, 2022 by NukemDed (see edit history)