The loot linearity is killing my interest in this game

[KiaDragon]

I have logged 2,930 hours on this game.  I purchased it several alphas ago and it has been my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE for years.

But this new linear loot system is killing me with bland boredom.  I know precisely what I am getting from loot crates early game.  Nothing of worth.

I loot an entire Shotgun Messiah factory to get nothing but a high level blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.

There is no point to breaking open safes.  I am able to craft better weapons that I can every find in a gun safe or loot crate for weeks in gameplay.

Zero randomness to loot.  No exciting surprises.  Bland, boring, GRINDY.  It does not matter if I take the Lucky Looter perk.  Bland repeats of the same low level gear.  There is no joy for taking the risk of raiding facilities.

It this rate, I have no desire to GRIND, GRIND, GRIND for days on end before I can get a piece of decent hardware of ANY type.

I am beyond disappointed.  Doubt I'll bother getting to 3,000 hours.  It's just a grindy snoozefest now, no matter how pretty you made the graphics.

[Roland]

Does it curb your indignation at all to know that it is a work in progress and not the final intended product?  This is just temporary. They will be adding new weapons to add variety and also adding location based gamestage modifiers which will increase both difficulty and loot levels. So if you are willing to risk the tougher biomes and POIs you will get better than blunderbusses for loot. 
 

So you can either put up with it for the meantime or if it is so completely disagreeable you can take a break until they finish up this aspect of the game.  There is also at least one mod I’ve heard about that returns the loot to completely random so there is that option too. 
 

 

[Slaasher]

5 hours ago, KiaDragon said:

I have logged 2,930 hours on this game.  I purchased it several alphas ago and it has been my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE for years.

But this new linear loot system is killing me with bland boredom.  I know precisely what I am getting from loot crates early game.  Nothing of worth.

I loot an entire Shotgun Messiah factory to get nothing but a high level blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.  After blunderbuss.

There is no point to breaking open safes.  I am able to craft better weapons that I can every find in a gun safe or loot crate for weeks in gameplay.

Zero randomness to loot.  No exciting surprises.  Bland, boring, GRINDY.  It does not matter if I take the Lucky Looter perk.  Bland repeats of the same low level gear.  There is no joy for taking the risk of raiding facilities.

It this rate, I have no desire to GRIND, GRIND, GRIND for days on end before I can get a piece of decent hardware of ANY type.

I am beyond disappointed.  Doubt I'll bother getting to 3,000 hours.  It's just a grindy snoozefest now, no matter how pretty you made the graphics.

 

This has not been my experience with A19.

Granted I started playing the week before the beta broke. 

But I have started several games and in almost all of them I have gotten AK 47's and pistols in the first few days. In a couple of the games I was even surprised to find pistols in the toilets LOL

 

 

[iamnuff]

Similar problem with looting stone tools repeatedly. Stone tool specifically are worthless as loot and break SOD.

 

Who the hell is crafting these caveman tools and then leaving them around in sealed crates? 

Surely the sealed crates are meant to contain supplies from before the bombs fell?

 

If the stuff in these crates is actually limited by your level or gamestage, then doesn't it mean that there's absolutely no incentive to open them until you hit a decent level because it's a total waste to spend a valuable Working Stuff or Shotgun Messiah crate if your low GS won't allow it to roll anything higher tier than stone? 

 

No. Sealed crates (and supply drops) shouldn't be effected by game stage at all, because they're untouched, unopened supplies from before the bombs fell. 

Nothing in them should be hand-made by apocalyptic survivors. It should all be hammers and wrenches and guns. 

 

If you want to make low-tier guns like pistols more common than high tier guns like auto-shotguns, that makes perfect sense. 

But why would a shotgun messiah store stock blunderbusses or primitive bows? 

Why world a Working Stuff factory stock stone sledgehammers or stone axes?

 

No. Grade 0 weapons and tools (things clearly built after the end of the world) shouldn't be on the loot-table for these locations at all. 

[Ezed]

I understand.  The Stone Age thing is kind of immersion breaking.  If stone tools were just iron tools but crappy, and there were two tiers beyond (say steel and titanium or carbon fiber or something), there wouldn't be such a fuss.  

[seagas]

So who is looting high level boxes so early on? I don't open large safes or valuable crates until I get above GS 40. There is still valuable loot, trader quests and items to buy from traders. I found a level 1 toilet pistol, bought 3 level M16 and a motorcycle all by day 8.  Still using box, blunderbuss and sawed off shotgun for looting and hoard mights, enjoying the challenge this brings to the game.

[Orclover]

Yea the loot type being tied to level kinda took the fun out of it, the rank of the loot I can understand but even the type?  Got old this last run.  Spent several hours and got up a few levels and I was still pulling nothing but stone tools (level 6 no less!) out of all the boxes from high level poi's.  Not an iron tool to be found even, all stone.  Apparently during the Apocalypse our country reverted to a stone age society or maybe its a representative of harbor freight level gear, who knows.

[canadianbluebeer]

There are sealed crates all over.  eg: there is one in an outhouse beside a broken old west wagon.

(usually there is a snake resting on the crate)

Lots of poi that have them as well that are easily clearable very early on.

 

It was always a nice surprise to get a q3/4 pistol/ak early. Rare, but it happened.

 

Now, have to hope for a treasure map to get a buncha dukes, or do a bunch of quests to buy one,

if the trader has it.

 

loot tables do need a rework/tweak.  I know they wanted to slow things down, and they did, but

it's gone a bit too far.

 

Once the pipe guns show up, that should help. (pistol/shotgun/machinegun) 

Have to wait and see.

 

[leaderdog]

As Roland said, it's temporary.  I have my personal doubts of the "fill" weapons for low stage, I don't care for a stone age or primitive stage of weaponry in a game based in a modern/post apocalyptic time.  But I do like the idea of tougher areas and you then can gauge whether you want to go in there or wait till you're better geared.

 

BUT, until then go to nexus mods and search for FAWK-LOOT-ALL.  It puts back the good old random loot like you're used to.  I posted this in a different thread.  And as I said there, I am not affiliated or associated with the mod at all.  I just use it.

 

Have fun.

[AlyssaFaden]

I'm pretty okay with the current system BUT I entirely see the OPs point of view. The narrow list of available stone age makes it somewhat predictable what you are going to get, and the fact that you are restricted to that range - regardless of what you are looting - narrows the value of those big, high value treasures. Locked 10,000 hp crate? Here's your scrap armor. Sure, it's level 3, but scrap armor. Oh, and a blunderbus. Gratz. Hope it was worth the 2 in game hrs chipping it open with a stone axe.

 

It removes something from a game: gun safe? no worth opening until later. Shotgun messiah factor? treasure room in waterworks? nah, I'll pass until my game stage is up.

I'd prefer to see these top-tier locked containers have at least A CHANCE for the next tier up (or more). Maybe something that increases with lucky looter. 

But right now - while I understand, respect, and appreciate, and accept what the pimps are doing with the current system - it's too linear.

[KiaDragon]

18 hours ago, Roland said:

Does it curb your indignation at all to know that it is a work in progress and not the final intended product?  This is just temporary. They will be adding new weapons to add variety and also adding location based gamestage modifiers which will increase both difficulty and loot levels. So if you are willing to risk the tougher biomes and POIs you will get better than blunderbusses for loot. 
 

So you can either put up with it for the meantime or if it is so completely disagreeable you can take a break until they finish up this aspect of the game.  There is also at least one mod I’ve heard about that returns the loot to completely random so there is that option too. 
 

 

"indignation"?  Ummm...not capable of listening to constructive criticism for a game you didn't code?  

I expressed my opinion.  I didn't insult the makers.  I didn't insult the game.  Nearly 3000 hours of play makes it obvious I am invested in the game.  I put in my two cents on what I KNOW is an alpha.  Without feedback, they can't tweek the game properly.

Too much for you delicate sensibilities?  Dude...the internet is gonna be rough for you.

[uselessjunkaccount]

I don't think it makes the game any more grindy since it doesn't change how I play (not doing anything more often that usual) but it does make progression slower. Although too much in my opinion. It's not so much boredom that I experience but disappointment in the the good loot containers.

 

If nothing else I hope they add a little variety to the boxes. Working Stiff crates are the worst, you have crates that end up containing only 4-5 small stone because you get your 1000th-1003rd stone items that you just scrap into small stone. I think it'd be cool to see maybe some flagstone blocks in them or a generous amount of cobble. Put some molotovs, grenades and pipe bombs in the Shotgun Messiah crates. Those are fun items but not powerful at all outside of horde nights and even then, only if you have the right base. Put more food/drink recipes in the Shamway crates.

 

Really I just want there to always be a good chance to find at least one thing useful in each crate. Currently it seems like there's a one week lull between tiers where looting crates and chest is pretty dull.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, KiaDragon said:

"indignation"?  Ummm...not capable of listening to constructive criticism for a game you didn't code?  

I expressed my opinion.  I didn't insult the makers.  I didn't insult the game.  Nearly 3000 hours of play makes it obvious I am invested in the game.  I put in my two cents on what I KNOW is an alpha.  Without feedback, they can't tweek the game properly.

Too much for you delicate sensibilities?  Dude...the internet is gonna be rough for you.

I don't think you understand what indignation means. It's not bad. It simply means anger and frustration about something you feel is unfair. That seemed to me to be the gist of your post. You seemed "beyond disappointed" about a progression system that you feel is unfair to the players.

 

I also didn't say you shouldn't give critical feedback. But your post really came across as though you thought what was put out was the intended final product. I was letting you know that it isn't and they have plans. I'm sure you know what an Alpha is-- but what I wasn't sure you knew was whether they were in the midst of developing the new loot progression and only part of it got done for this release and more of it will be accomplished at the next release.

 

So that's it. I'm not in crisis over your apparent unhappiness and frustration over the current WIP progression. I just like people to understand the actual state of things. When someone gives feedback thinking they've just experienced the final intended product it is usually different than the feedback they give when they understand that it is still a work in progress. And by "product" I'm talking specifically about the progression system of the game.

 

See, since the progression system is only partially done and they have definite plans for how they want to finish it, you would be wasting time suggesting things that aren't part of their plan. That's why when people know that something is still being worked on they usually ask questions about the future and then post their hopes about how it will turn out. They might say they'll have to take a break until it is more developed. When someone thinks they are looking at the final intended work then they give feedback more along the lines of asking the devs to roll it back to how it was or suggesting ways to improve it or saying they'll most likely never get to 3000 hours AKA quit.

 

I went back and read what I wrote. Honestly, it was pretty mild. Nowhere did I say you were wrong or even attack you at all. I simply told you what was in the works for the future and then suggested you learn to live with it since it is temporary or just wait until the whole system is done or mod it. I guess not knowing what "indignation" meant led you to assume I was attacking you but not so. I was just using cogent vocabulary.

 

lol...I may very well have a problem in the future with "rough" internet, but daaaaamn buddy, you can't even handle mild right now.

[Teacyn]

I think a huge chunk of the issue is that there is zero loot/weapon/armor variety in the game. Every "Age" has exactly one weapon and armor of each Class (except for the Steel Age, which has two of each Gun Class now except for Machine Gun), meaning there's absolutely no variety. I think if you had 3-4 weapons (and maybe 2-3 armors) of each Class for an Age, each with different focuses and upsides/downsides, it would help a lot.

 

It is really dumb to find post-apocalyptic stone-age tools and items in Sealed Crates though, you're right. I almost wonder if it would be a good idea to remove Sealed Crates from most PoIs and only put them in mid-higher level ones where it makes sense for there to be condensed storage of certain items, and have those be your high-end loot options.

[canadianbluebeer]

Part of it is even when you move to the second 'age', you still get a lot of stone tools. Q6 perhaps, but still a bunch.

 

A granular approach, where there is a % chance of a certain "age" item dropping, that % increasing as GS goes up, and the prev "age" decreases

would be workable imho. 

 

Mind you, I'd have at least at some chance of a higher "age" item dropping, kind of like winning the lotto. (no clue what % would work, but A chance)

 

It doesn't take long to get to GS 12, where we should get non-stoneage stuff, but even then, yeah, still a lot of rocks.

(think Charlie Brown and Halloween)  😛

 

I am curious how it's going to work out, especially if they take away the traders selling good stuff early.

I'll just have to open the BeerGod powers and put in the pre-war/apocolypse cache that I would have setup, "just in case". (tinfoil included)

😛

 

 

[12pack]

people who drink the beer before it's finished fermenting are often unsatisfied.

 

[iamnuff]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:20 PM, seagas said:

So who is looting high level boxes so early on? I don't open large safes or valuable crates until I get above GS 40. There is still valuable loot, trader quests and items to buy from traders. I found a level 1 toilet pistol, bought 3 level M16 and a motorcycle all by day 8.  Still using box, blunderbuss and sawed off shotgun for looting and hoard mights, enjoying the challenge this brings to the game.

 

I spawned in a town with a Working Stiff and a Shotgun Messiah store. 

the first house I stayed in had a Shotgun messiah crate in the woodhouse out back, and the second one had a Working Stiff in the garage. 

Most were empty, one had a half-broken t2 stone shovel inside it. 

 

I'm not talking about factory raids, but basic street-level shops and houses with crates that practically have "Valuable tools inside" stamped on the front should actually have something useful inside. 

 

Instead, it would feel more fair if I found a pack of gunpowder, maybe some 9mm ammo and a single randomized low-grade iron tool. (pickaxe? fire axe? Wrench? Hammer? sledge?) 

Instead I opened four crates and got nothing. 

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, Teacyn said:

I think if you had 3-4 weapons (and maybe 2-3 armors) of each Class for an Age, each with different focuses and upsides/downsides, it would help a lot.

But that would also mean that the developers would have to design and model more weapons. That's a lot of work and the Fun Pimps are a small game company.
 

[Scyris]

On 8/22/2020 at 2:55 AM, Roland said:

Does it curb your indignation at all to know that it is a work in progress and not the final intended product?  This is just temporary. They will be adding new weapons to add variety and also adding location based gamestage modifiers which will increase both difficulty and loot levels. So if you are willing to risk the tougher biomes and POIs you will get better than blunderbusses for loot. 
 

So you can either put up with it for the meantime or if it is so completely disagreeable you can take a break until they finish up this aspect of the game.  There is also at least one mod I’ve heard about that returns the loot to completely random so there is that option too. 
 

 

They should just put it back how a18 was it was perfect then, just add the new items, you could find anything on day 1 if your luck was good. quality 4-6 stuff was rareish even at high GS. I've logged the least amount of hours in a19 experimental for any alpha because the loot system is just so boring and linear. A19 stable is out.. Haven't even bothered to play it, as they didn't get rid of that crap loot system they puked out for a19 yet, might give up on the game as a whole if it doesn't change soon. A few people I know who loved a18 also gave up on the game, come a19 due to the loot system changes. Its totally a case here of "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it". I loved a18, I play dead is dead, and a18's randomness made every game different, some games I had guns early, others I had a steel tool early. A19? there is 0 replay value now, since its the same linear loot every single time, there is literally no point to bothering going out to loot stuff early game as you'll get nothing but garbage.

 

TFP has made a ton of stupid design decisions and such with this game each alpha, but none are as bad as this linear loot system. I don't know why TFP seems hell bent on removing choice from the player in a sandbox like game. First zombies can dig, so the option to make a underground base for whatever reason is pretty much gone, now zombies can swim (and swim faster than the player either... figure that one out), so Hiding on a lake if you don't wanna bother with horde night had its option taken away. Now we have the linear loot system, which removed any replay value the game used to have.

 

I just do not enjoy the game anymore in a19 with the loot as it is, to the point I can't even bring myself to play it anymore, and this is coming from someone with 3733 hours. Usually in each experimental build I am playing for 8+ hours a day every day for a few days after a new build is release, but in a19? I lost interest after the first 1 or 2, due to the loot system. Also if you look around people in general DISPISE the new loot system in a19, so that should tell them something.

 

TL DR: Go back to how loot was in a18 in the a19.1 patch please. Just copy the loot.xml from a18 and add in the new items, it was perfect in a18. Its broken and boring as hell in a19 with how it is now.

53 minutes ago, iamnuff said:

 

I spawned in a town with a Working Stiff and a Shotgun Messiah store. 

the first house I stayed in had a Shotgun messiah crate in the woodhouse out back, and the second one had a Working Stiff in the garage. 

Most were empty, one had a half-broken t2 stone shovel inside it. 

 

I'm not talking about factory raids, but basic street-level shops and houses with crates that practically have "Valuable tools inside" stamped on the front should actually have something useful inside. 

 

Instead, it would feel more fair if I found a pack of gunpowder, maybe some 9mm ammo and a single randomized low-grade iron tool. (pickaxe? fire axe? Wrench? Hammer? sledge?) 

Instead I opened four crates and got nothing. 

yeah, in a18 i'd see those stores and they'd be a prime target to try to loot on day 1 or 2, in A19? I don't touch them them past day 7 or even 14, as the loot won't be worth it till then, its a stupid broken system, it needs to go back to a18 in a 19.1 patch. TONS of people dislike the new loot system, enough that they should consider going back to a18. I've barely played a19 due to the new loot, and this is from a guy who usually spends days playing each new experimental/stable build. I just can't bring myself to play as the looting aspect of the game is so damn terrible now that I literally have virtually nothing to do in game of interest for the first week or 2. in A18, i'd be looting anything I can like crazy and hope to get something nice. A19? I barely loot anything till a certain gamestage as it'll be empty or have stone crap in it. Also the guarnteed qual 5/6 stuff in every container has to go as well. Again a18 was better in that aspect to, qual 1-3 was common 4-6 were rare even at higher gamestage, compared to now when its like.. every container is quality 6 guarnteed past a certain gs.

[Tmodloader]

It's actually not that bad if you weren't used to the old system, just refresh your mindset

[Roland]

8 hours ago, Scyris said:

They should just put it back

TFP is making an omelette.

The first step is to break some eggs and keep the white and yolk in a bowl and throw the shells away.

After breaking the eggs and throwing away the shells someone says, "Those are perfectly good shells and their purpose is to protect the white and yolk. It's horrible the way it is now. How do you expect us to eat raw eggs? Is this what you call an omelette? A bowl with raw eggs inside and the shells which served so well in the past now in the garbage?"

 

Wait for the omelette Scyris. TFP is going to make the omelette. They are not going to fish out the shells from the garbage and try to put the eggs back together again. If you don't like being in the kitchen while the omelette is being prepared, then wait until it is served and then come running to grab a plate.

 

You still might not like the omelette they prepared and you can say so and push to remove it along with others who don't like it. But they have a plan that they are going to see through to the end. You can tell them to abandon their plan all you want but it will be wasted breath. They are committed to this course. 

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:20 AM, seagas said:

So who is looting high level boxes so early on? I don't open large safes or valuable crates until I get above GS 40. There is still valuable loot, trader quests and items to buy from traders. I found a level 1 toilet pistol, bought 3 level M16 and a motorcycle all by day 8.  Still using box, blunderbuss and sawed off shotgun for looting and hoard mights, enjoying the challenge this brings to the game.

Buying sh*t from the trader is a different system in the game. You aren't looting when buying from the trader. Who cares what you bought from the trader? This discussion is about searching the world a finding useless stuff.

 

I like the excitement of searching for loot. It was the element of expectant surprise that kept me looting. Their new system killed that. The trader helps blunt this disappointment but it doesn't make it entirely better. I modded paintings, posters, and some cosmetic type blocks to be picked up and have value. Even with that it can be a grind to get enough to buy those nice tools and weapons. If it did hit beta, this also seems close to their final iteration. If anything has convinced me why pc is and always will be better than console is this. Mods aren't a small perk, they are an absolute must.

[Roland]

15 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

If it did hit beta, this also seems close to their final iteration.

It did not hit beta. You'll know when that happens because there won't be an "Alpha" in front of the version number. As for this particular system of progression it is not close to their final iteration. It is like the first step. Hopefully the rest of the steps will be implemented by time Alpha 20 comes out but if not they should be done by Alpha 21. See? not Beta yet. There are two more Alpha stage major versions planned so rumors of Beta have been exaggerated.

 

19 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

If anything has convinced me why pc is and always will be better than console is this. Mods aren't a small perk, they are an absolute must

Amen brother. But don't say it like its a criticism. Say it like its an awesome feature planned since the beginning by TFP. We aren't playing mods in spite of them and sneaking under their radar. No, we are playing them with their blessing and to be quite honest their generosity. They want us to morph their framework into versions that are more fun for us personally.

 

Long live mods! Thank you Pimps!!

[guardianangelmp]

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

Amen brother. But don't say it like its a criticism. Say it like its an awesome feature planned since the beginning by TFP. We aren't playing mods in spite of them and sneaking under their radar. No, we are playing them with their blessing and to be quite honest their generosity. They want us to morph their framework into versions that are more fun for us personally.

 

Long live mods! Thank you Pimps!!

 

Eh, if they hadn't allowed mods not as many people would be playing now.  They have been so schizo with the content and the changes with each alpha that, while they may have a plan, that plan is about as solid and steady as gelatin.

 

My analogy would be that 7 days is like Skyrim when it comes to their relationship with mods....base game is good, but has many flaws and relies on modders to make the game great.

[martinistripes]

I joined the party at Alpha 16 and never felt the need to mod my game. If I was going to mod anything out right now though, it would be the loot linearity. The early game has become to predictable; no getting lucky or unlucky.