So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[uselessjunkaccount]

On 7/27/2020 at 4:19 AM, Solomon said:

Nope, you wont tell a 5 year old to run away they are slow and have almost zero chance of survival. You hide them in a wall, container, anything to keep them safe and hope that you can fend off the dead.

 

That's my point. Run away - to go hide somewhere or to an adult. And that ignores the larger point that you aren't telling five year olds to run for the nearest stone spear to combat zombies, let alone leave them lying around to play with when things are quiet.

 

Anyway, I think there are arguments of realism there that can be made for people sealing stuff in wooden crates to keep them secure from small kids or looters or just long term storage in such a situation. But overall I don't think that this is a great argument to maintain the status quo anyway. Finding 2 stone spears, a stone sledgehammer and 3 stone arrows in a Shotgun Messiah crate on day 10 is really boring. So many things already don't make sense in this world anyway if you look closely enough even if we ignore that it's a zombie apocalypse. The town planning of these cities makes zero sense. Why was there a water treatment facility for like 50k people built in a town with maybe 500 residents? Why did everyone drive the same ugly car? So we should just ignore realism and readjust the loot tables with a little stone in the very beginning

[Ripflex]

Stop using the "If this is unrealistic then this is unrealistic to and zombies don't exist so game mechanics can be as unrealistic it wants blah blah".

 

Having stone tools and primitive weapons in sealed crates in a multimillion dollar gun factory is just weird.  Is all I was commenting about.  And I suggested for early gameplay, game mechanics wise, just have Weapon PARTS or componets for ammo be in those crates untill later level.  That ALL.  Please get off the realism train, and think more game mechanics and game progression.... it's what we are talking about.

 

And I still stand on looting early level just not exciting anymore because outside needed COMPONENTS to craft work stations a slightly, ever so slightly better tools to build a defense and keep from starving to death, there's no reward, it's not exciting, it's tedious.  I expect loot to be crap until 20+ levels and a decent gamestage... so why bother ?

 

It's almost like playing Skyrim where everything crappy and filler until you hit level 40 to get the good drops. 😕

 

[Ralathar44]

2 hours ago, Ripflex said:

Having stone tools and primitive weapons in sealed crates in a multimillion dollar gun factory is just weird. 

Why would the good stuff still be there?  Look at the world in game, significant time has passed...prolly years.  Wouldn't those places be the first places looted?  Realistically those should be the LAST places with great loot.  Those guns would be looted faster than toilet paper :D.
 

2 hours ago, Ripflex said:

And I still stand on looting early level just not exciting anymore because outside needed COMPONENTS to craft work stations a slightly, ever so slightly better tools to build a defense and keep from starving to death, there's no reward, it's not exciting, it's tedious.  I expect loot to be crap until 20+ levels and a decent gamestage... so why bother ?

I think there is a core problem with your argument here.  Because there are many ways to solve your actual core complaint "I feel the early game is not engaging enough" OR "I don't feel there is enough progression in the early game".   But folks typically marry themselves to one solution for some reason.  Here are the baseline solutions off the top of my head I can think of: 

Solution 1:  Make the early game more engaging/rewarding within the existing primitive framework. 

Solution 2: Smooth out the leveling curve a bit so it's a faster transition from primitive, but still slower than before where you skipped 90% of the loot progression by day 14.  Sort of an in between then and now.  Loot scaling to gamestage but scaling faster so you can start progressing sooner...but still having a significant early game chunk.

Solution 3:  The solution being pursued by TFP.  Progression from primitive is slow, but if you are willing to tackle the risk you can face higher gamestage enemies to get higher gamestage loot.  Risk vs reward, but you have the option to speed up your progress at the cost of more risk.  TFP have this aimed at A20 IIRC, that way that weapons plant might be gamestage 114 even if you're at gamestage 14.  The tech just isn't in yet for that to be part of A19.  This is like how A18 basically came in and finished up A17 and that worked out EXTREMELY well for the game according to the player population and engagement numbers on steam charts.

Solution 4:  We revert to the way we were before where even modest scavenging skipped 90% of the gear progression curve by day 7/14.

[Solomon]

9 hours ago, uselessjunkaccount said:

 

That's my point. Run away - to go hide somewhere or to an adult. And that ignores the larger point that you aren't telling five year olds to run for the nearest stone spear to combat zombies, let alone leave them lying around to play with when things are quiet.

 

Anyway, I think there are arguments of realism there that can be made for people sealing stuff in wooden crates to keep them secure from small kids or looters or just long term storage in such a situation. But overall I don't think that this is a great argument to maintain the status quo anyway. Finding 2 stone spears, a stone sledgehammer and 3 stone arrows in a Shotgun Messiah crate on day 10 is really boring. So many things already don't make sense in this world anyway if you look closely enough even if we ignore that it's a zombie apocalypse. The town planning of these cities makes zero sense. Why was there a water treatment facility for like 50k people built in a town with maybe 500 residents? Why did everyone drive the same ugly car? So we should just ignore realism and readjust the loot tables with a little stone in the very beginning

Suspension of disbelief applies to this game, we can kinda ignore things like the cars or the water treatment facility as most of us dont actually want the decs to create multiple car skins or are city builders to realize that it shouldnt be there, im kind of sure we would even ignore the stone tools in loot if they were in open crates marked "survivor cache".

 

Problems start to arise when something clashes too much within the gameplay that the player just point at it and says "wth is this?". Stone tools in their current form are like that.

 

I think the whole progression should work like this:

 

Stone age tools are practically tutorial items, these are the @%$*#! you are getting for the start of the game and you are supposed to ditch them as fast as possible, so heres my dream progression system:

 

 

• Really early game: Stone and Brass age

 

So the player starts out and gets itself some stones, wood and fibers and makes a stone axe to start crafting. They continue this as long as they learn to make a Forge or have enough materials for a Primitive Forge ( its a bunch of stone and clay cobbled together and can only make brass ).

 

Once they have somekind of forge they can collect brass to enter the next age (what historically also makes sense). They get their tools all replaced by brass tools, durability is still low but they got much faster and more efficient tools to work with

 

• Middle game: Iron and Steel Age

 

The player is running around with brass hammers and spears collecting whatever they need to advance into iron age. They make a forge and start smelting iron and steel, this is the longest period of the game with loads of different equipment.

 

• End game: Specialized equipment

 

At this stage the player most likely figured out what and how they like to play, at this stage i would like to see somekind of "engineers table" or "advanced forge" where you can make specialized items for your style.

 

If you are stealthy you could make a ghillie suit what decreases zombie detection range and makes no noise or if you liked to use bows you could craft advanced recurve or compound bows with much higher range and damage than their normal counterparts.

 

Essentially this is the stage where you specialize in what you like and you also need the upgrades from here because the game is getting more and more dangerous.

 

 

The whole point is that there is a craftable (with minor exceptions) only option, something whats lootable and craftable and finally something whats only lootable (with minor exceptions). Each stage uses up the game in a proper form, the first makes you believe that these are really only craftable and dont appear in loot, the second are both modern age and common so you can both make and find them, the last ones are specialized equipment what you can mostly only find in the shape of the whole item or blueprints.

6 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Why would the good stuff still be there?  Look at the world in game, significant time has passed...prolly years.  Wouldn't those places be the first places looted?  Realistically those should be the LAST places with great loot.  Those guns would be looted faster than toilet paper :D.

-Hurry the @%$*#! up Joe, we got the guns what the hell you are doing back there?!

 

- Sorry Fred gotta seal back these crates with their original boxes.

[beHypE]

I don't think adding a "brass age" solves anything, just like adding flintlock pistols won't solve the issue of opening Shotgun Messiah crates and not being properly rewarded. Next thing you know you run a full set of brass tools and the same problem is there again, "why should I open another loot container to get another brass tool I already have" ?

 

In my opinion the only way to properly solve this is to MCGA (Make Crates Great Again). This also means that crates/reinforced iron chests must NOT be found at the end of every ezpz T1 dungeon, but should be rewards you get for clearing a higher gamestage POI only. You can't have it both ways : either those crates contain good loot and are rare and/or a high risk/high reward container, or you find them in every other broken house and they need to be @%$*#! in order to prevent people from being geared up in steel tools by Day 7.

 

This also means the stores should be a nightmare to clear, instead of being another easy POI with a dozen specific crates in them. If only you could solve this by making stores spawning in cities only and making cities (very) hard subbiomes...

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, beHypE said:

I don't think adding a "brass age" solves anything, just like adding flintlock pistols won't solve the issue of opening Shotgun Messiah crates and not being properly rewarded. Next thing you know you run a full set of brass tools and the same problem is there again, "why should I open another loot container to get another brass tool I already have" ?

I think i gotta edit that one there, i mean for the stone and brass age to be craftable only with only a few specific exceptions what you can kinda find around normally like a small brass knife or letter cutter as we call them.

1 hour ago, beHypE said:

In my opinion the only way to properly solve this is to MCGA (Make Crates Great Again). This also means that crates/reinforced iron chests must NOT be found at the end of every ezpz T1 dungeon, but should be rewards you get for clearing a higher gamestage POI only. You can't have it both ways : either those crates contain good loot and are rare and/or a high risk/high reward container, or you find them in every other broken house and they need to be @%$*#! in order to prevent people from being geared up in steel tools by Day 7.

I also agree on that one, i can always imagine finding a pistol or hunting rifle in specific houses but not an AK. I can always expect to find brass and tools in a plumber store and soo on.

 

I dont mind if i can no longer find easy to get weapon safes and such as long as it fits the area, like the only place where i can actually believe to see stone spears would be a museum poi.

 

 

Make it random but modify the chances that if i want masses of military weapons i gotta find a military base and such, like why the hell do fire stations have gunsafes?

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 7/11/2020 at 5:56 PM, Telric said:

Another "realism" thread complaining they arent fully kitted out on day 1.. Move along everyone.

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 7/29/2020 at 1:16 AM, Solomon said:

Stone age tools are practically tutorial items, these are the @%$*#! you are getting for the start of the game and you are supposed to ditch them as fast as possible, so heres my dream progression system:

 

Yes, they kinda are tutorial items. How does it make sense then that you are still stuck with them until day 7? It's one thing to limit gun use early game by limiting ammo. It's another to absolutely stop them from dropping. Tools don't have that kind of mechanic, but if we are to consider stone tools as tutorial items, why should they stick around far longer than any other game keeps their tutorial items?

[Solomon]

14 minutes ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

Well said, the whole change is nothing but artifical slowing down of the players.

 

Its highly unrealistic, break immersion and lets be honest these are tutorial items they shouldnt even be considered as possible loot.

[Jugginator]

22 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit.

Idk what you're on about, I use the blunderbuss on warrior/survivalist and insane and it works well; I even use it on the 1st and 2nd horde night as supplement to bow/arrow and whatever gun I found on that run.

[Gr.o.m.]

I would always prefer games who ignore "realism" to create a better game play.

 

Whats a game worth that is realistic and imersive, but is grossly unbalanced and makes no fun.

[JCrook1028]

On 8/2/2020 at 1:51 PM, Stranded_Napkin said:

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

Um, no. Default WAS nomad, now it is dropped to Adventurer. Raising it is your own decision.

[Xtrakicking]

5 hours ago, Gr.o.m. said:

I would always prefer games who ignore "realism" to create a better game play.

 

Whats a game worth that is realistic and imersive, but is grossly unbalanced and makes no fun.

I prefer games that are both immersive and have good gameplay.

[Gr.o.m.]

9 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

I prefer games that are both immersive and have good gameplay.

Agreed!

But realism is not emmersive. Espacially if ppl start arguing how zombies are displayed realistic. Or other things, like what kind of caliber you feed into what kind of weapon.

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:33 PM, JCrook1028 said:

Um, no. Default WAS nomad, now it is dropped to Adventurer. Raising it is your own decision.

You did catch the part where I said "in Adventurer" right? I didn't say Nomad was still default. Nobody said Nomad was still default. 

[Roland]

Nomad is the real default. Adventurer is the feel-good marketing default....

[FileMachete]

My general take on "realistic" and "immersion" is basically this. Totally ok for game to be completely "un-realistic", but whatever they are doing, it -must- be self-consistent. If it isn't then it will break "immersion".

 

In the particular case of 7dtd, TFPs chose to model the base world on the real world. With the obvious exception of 'zombies'. Almost -everything- in game is a direct copy of a real world item. Ford Crown Vics, SWAT helmet, prior to a19s Steel Club and placeable turrets, every player weapon modeled a real world weapon.

 

The 'Stone Age' never fit well. For so many reasons I won't even bother to list them. When it lasted only a very short time, it was, 'eh, whatever'. Now that it can drag out to 21 days plus (I'm still using a stone axe day 22, because the q4 Iron axe I crafted wasn't better), it is painfully out of place. And breaking immersion for a lot more people than before.

 

Inexplicably (to me) there is a ready real world 'solution' that would fit the apparent desire to extend the early game that they've chosen to ignore. Cowboy tech.

 

Single action 6-shooters and lever action rifles, with somewhat realistic reload times. In an old time caliber, not .44 Mag and 30-30, maybe .36 Cal.

Say 6-8 seconds to reload the pistol & 9-12 for the rifle. Using both without a reload you'd have 14+ rounds, enough for a couple few low level zeds, any more and you'd need to run or melee due to reload times.

Radically different than a sub 2 second 9mm Pistol reload worth 20+ rounds (couple perk points and a mag extender).

 

Also solves the 'Factory Crate' immersion break, for Shotgun Messiah at least.

 

As to filling the toolbelt with these firearms, sure go ahead, have fun as you like, but 'progress' wise by the time you've looted enough to do that, ideally you're starting to loot the next Tier of weapons.

 

Compare this with the upcoming 'Pipe Guns'. Which would be more immersive for you?

 

I haven't lost sight that 7dtd is their game, their vision. Could be that out of the gate they simply couldn't afford or had the resources to better display that vision, and now they do, so they are.

Maybe their next game will be hardcore Steam Punk, or some other alternative reality.

But there have been all these years where 7dtd was almost entirely a post apocolytic real world, with zombies as the bad guys.

Shoehorning in an extended stone age just isn't a good fit.

[AtomicUs5000]

1 hour ago, FileMachete said:

The 'Stone Age' never fit well. For so many reasons I won't even bother to list them. When it lasted only a very short time, it was, 'eh, whatever'. Now that it can drag out to 21 days plus (I'm still using a stone axe day 22, because the q4 Iron axe I crafted wasn't better), it is painfully out of place. And breaking immersion for a lot more people than before.

Very true. They really should work on maps being huge, and you start off in the middle of nowhere with nothing around for kilometers. This justifies relying on primitive techniques to survive and also makes it so that the note left for you makes more sense. When you spawn in and can see shelter, it belittles whatever the Duke was trying to do by leaving you somewhere.

[Solomon]

14 hours ago, FileMachete said:

My general take on "realistic" and "immersion" is basically this. Totally ok for game to be completely "un-realistic", but whatever they are doing, it -must- be self-consistent. If it isn't then it will break "immersion".

 

In the particular case of 7dtd, TFPs chose to model the base world on the real world. With the obvious exception of 'zombies'. Almost -everything- in game is a direct copy of a real world item. Ford Crown Vics, SWAT helmet, prior to a19s Steel Club and placeable turrets, every player weapon modeled a real world weapon.

 

The 'Stone Age' never fit well. For so many reasons I won't even bother to list them. When it lasted only a very short time, it was, 'eh, whatever'. Now that it can drag out to 21 days plus (I'm still using a stone axe day 22, because the q4 Iron axe I crafted wasn't better), it is painfully out of place. And breaking immersion for a lot more people than before.

 

Inexplicably (to me) there is a ready real world 'solution' that would fit the apparent desire to extend the early game that they've chosen to ignore. Cowboy tech.

 

Single action 6-shooters and lever action rifles, with somewhat realistic reload times. In an old time caliber, not .44 Mag and 30-30, maybe .36 Cal.

Say 6-8 seconds to reload the pistol & 9-12 for the rifle. Using both without a reload you'd have 14+ rounds, enough for a couple few low level zeds, any more and you'd need to run or melee due to reload times.

Radically different than a sub 2 second 9mm Pistol reload worth 20+ rounds (couple perk points and a mag extender).

 

Also solves the 'Factory Crate' immersion break, for Shotgun Messiah at least.

 

As to filling the toolbelt with these firearms, sure go ahead, have fun as you like, but 'progress' wise by the time you've looted enough to do that, ideally you're starting to loot the next Tier of weapons.

 

Compare this with the upcoming 'Pipe Guns'. Which would be more immersive for you?

 

I haven't lost sight that 7dtd is their game, their vision. Could be that out of the gate they simply couldn't afford or had the resources to better display that vision, and now they do, so they are.

Maybe their next game will be hardcore Steam Punk, or some other alternative reality.

But there have been all these years where 7dtd was almost entirely a post apocolytic real world, with zombies as the bad guys.

Shoehorning in an extended stone age just isn't a good fit.

What i never understood is why dont we for primitive tools actually use something what looks like makeshift items of a modern age?

 

I doubt anyone here in an apocalypse would start to sharpen bones or stones to create tools, its much more likely that you are going to sharpen a piece of random metal to get a knife or an axe.

 

 

Lets go in order for every primitive tool ingame:

 

Stone Axe: Probably the hardest one to make because most of us dont know how to make axe heads but heres the thing, you dont need an axe to chop wood. Replace this item with a primitive sword/machete aka a big sharpened sheet of metal embeded into a piece of wood and tadaaa! You now have a wood cutter item.

Makeshift axe: usage to cut wood and meat, made from wood and iron.

 

To fix the problem that i just removed the logical approach of using this item as an upgrade tool you can simply replace that function with small stones. Its literally the first thing comes to my mind if i dont have a hammer i just need a stone to nail stuff.

Small stones: usage to upgrade stuff added. Found lying around.

 

Bone knife: Like who came up with this idea, theres soo many stuff lying around whats dangerously sharp and you decide to go with a random bone of an animal? Replace this item with a piece of sharpened metal/glass on the end of a stick.

Makeshift knife: usage to fight and butcher, made from wood and iron.

 

Stone Shovel: I dont even know how would anybody make this thing. I dont think in any age of humanity anyone made a stone shovel because it doesnt make sense and probably is the most difficult item to make with minuscule gains to it. Replace this item with a wood showel because that thing actually exist and was used by our ancestors.

Wood Showel: Digging tool made from wood.

 

Now lets go for the weapons:

 

Wooden Club: Probably the only thing on this list what makes sense, you picked up a piece of big stick and whack things with it. No change needed.

 

Stone Sledge: While this weapon makes sense but its also in the category of items you wouldnt actually fit in an apocalypse. If i need a big sturdy whacker whats looks like a sledge hammer im probably going to get myself a piece of railway or some big @%$*#! iron piece and either drill into it or tape it to a pipe or such.

Either keep or replace it with an iron headed pipe in the case of the latter its the same tool but made from iron and pipes.

 

Stone Spear: Whats with the obsession that we all know how to precisely crackle stones to create sharp edges? Just tape a piece of iron on its top and done.

Replace with makeshift spear made from iron and wood.

 

Blunderbuss: Im not sure about anybody but i wouldnt try to make any kind of makeshift guns because one wrong move and your blunderbuss is a pipebomb. Also this weapon is not a primitive tool but actually one what needs forged iron to make from the scratch so i dont know why its even in that category.

Remove or replace it with an actual primitive ranged weapon.

 

 

[FileMachete]

@Solomon indeed. And unfortunately it gets worse the more you consider things.

 

Taking just the visual clues, number of basically intact buildings, abandoned cars, what was barricaded, etc. The 'scene' isn't crystal clear but it does appear that a significant percentage of the populace evacuated. Caveat: though this could simply be due to limitations. TFPs might not have been able to represent that 95% of the people were eaten or turned (if that's even what happened).

 

Doesn't matter to this point though; consider just all kinds of modern knives. If the troubles have been going on for quite a while then you could imagine that most kitchen knives such as Chef, Carving, etc., those that were big & 'sharp', could all have been looted. Any decent 'hunting knife' would have been a real find. But would all of the Butter knives and just normal utensils get taken as well? There's only a tiny fraction of regular people left. Each pre-disaster dwelling would have had at least a half dozen or more knives of some sort. Even if there had been mass evacuations, who'd have taken everything in the utensils drawer? Most would have been lucky to remember to take food and a can opener.

 

For arguments sake lets say a lot of folks did evacuate. And everything they took with them made it out as well. How many took all their gardening tools? A lawn mowers blade would make a decent machete. It's even the right mild temper.

Not to mention a lawn mower engine makes a lot more sense for a cobbled together generator. Who would haul a several hundred pound V8 out of a Crown Vic to use as a genie? And every car has basic tools to swap a flat. Lug wrench for a club.

 

Anyway. I can totally get TFPs coming out of the gate as a small startup, focusing on laying down the broad strokes for their game, getting the big picture across and basic gameplay going against the zombies. And they've done an immense amount of work since then. With the vast majority of it fitting neatly into the initial premise.

But they're now on the home stretch to finishing. And there's a reason for a Polish leg on the last lap. We all make an extra effort before a first date, or an interview. Good salepeople always strive for a good first impression. 7dtds first impression isn't nearly as good as it could be. And while I certainly have no idea how much is due to not seeing the forest for the trees, or sentimentallity, or stubborness, it does seem like there's something impeding them from seeing or acknowledging that the beginning is in need of some attention.

 

Just so it's not misconstrued, I'm not saying to make crafting tedious, or that intial scarcity/struggle should disappear. And certainly not arguing that realism should trump gameplay. Just to take a few steps back and look at things with, as much as possible, 'fresh' eyes and minimal preconceptions. Look for things that don't fit the narrative the game itself is telling. It's a bit startling.

[Reckis]

Not to mention that the style of "stone" weapons and tools that are depicted in the game require the ability to perform flint knapping, which if you have never done it is NOT an easy process. It takes a significant amount of practice and experience to learn where to strike, what "tools" to use to form the flint and how to get the shapes and edges that make such a stone tool useful.

[beHypE]

My biggest gripe is how long it effectively lasts. 22 hours into our game with 125% exp and we're still mostly looting bad stuff (low level iron tools, the basic mods, etc). Granted, we don't find blunderblusses anymore, but we don't find good weapons/tools either. Still running 3 bicycles with 0 plans for minibike or better (not even one of the two needed, literally none).  The tool tables are "unlocked" but it's not like suddenly you're finding all that juicy stuff. We're at gamestage ~65 or so and yeah, we don't feel like we advance much.

 

It's funny cause I remember heated debates about "we're not gonna implement that, it's a 2% feature; we need to focus on making content for those who play 10-20 hours". Well, this whole grindy progression feels like you need a 50 hour game if you want to enjoy 90% of what the game has to offer.

 

The worst thing is it's probably the first alpha since I started playing where I don't look forward to restarting at all. And usually, I'm quite the restart junkie; I often felt more excited about the prospect of restarting a new game than the thought of continuing a ~15h game. Right now I actually dread regoing through all the process. I guess stable release will be followed by a lot of mod releases and that's gonna be restart-worthy.

 

This is a classic example of a half-feature release that is actually detrimental (imo) until the rest of the feature is shipped (gamestaged biomes/POIs and whatever else is planned). And I honestly don't think a set of flintlock pistols/rifles will change much to the feel of grindy progression. You'll simply rock a weapon that you're specced into instead of the current blunderbuss, the rest will be the same.

[meganoth]

Shockingly I have to agree with Solomon this time 😉. Immersion-wise the game could improve by just making the stone-age tools use iron instead of stones and look like it. The stone axe would still have to exist as a pure stone item to provide the initial bootstrap that allows you to get stone, wood, and metal at all.

 

At least for guns I think the pipe weapons are already a step in that direction. If we compare pipe guns with western tech (FileMachetes proposal), pipe guns win IMHO, because it makes sense that you can build them with scrap metal and duct tape, while historical guns have the same problem as the blunderbuss for justifying why they are there in such masses and how to build them easily.  Pipe guns have no problems being in weapon shipment boxes and households as today we can order 3D printed guns on the internet.

 

[meganoth]

28 minutes ago, beHypE said:

My biggest gripe is how long it effectively lasts. 22 hours into our game with 125% exp and we're still mostly looting bad stuff (low level iron tools, the basic mods, etc). Granted, we don't find blunderblusses anymore, but we don't find good weapons/tools either. Still running 3 bicycles with 0 plans for minibike or better (not even one of the two needed, literally none).  The tool tables are "unlocked" but it's not like suddenly you're finding all that juicy stuff. We're at gamestage ~65 or so and yeah, we don't feel like we advance much.

 

It's funny cause I remember heated debates about "we're not gonna implement that, it's a 2% feature; we need to focus on making content for those who play 10-20 hours". Well, this whole grindy progression feels like you need a 50 hour game if you want to enjoy 90% of what the game has to offer.

 

The worst thing is it's probably the first alpha since I started playing where I don't look forward to restarting at all. And usually, I'm quite the restart junkie; I often felt more excited about the prospect of restarting a new game than the thought of continuing a ~15h game. Right now I actually dread regoing through all the process. I guess stable release will be followed by a lot of mod releases and that's gonna be restart-worthy.

 

This is a classic example of a half-feature release that is actually detrimental (imo) until the rest of the feature is shipped (gamestaged biomes/POIs and whatever else is planned). And I honestly don't think a set of flintlock pistols/rifles will change much to the feel of grindy progression. You'll simply rock a weapon that you're specced into instead of the current blunderbuss, the rest will be the same.

Then do 150% or 200% xp. There is a direct link between level and loot quality.

 

[beHypE]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Then do 150% or 200% xp. There is a direct link between level and loot quality.

 

I've thought about doing that. But then you have other issues, such as powerleveling way too much early and also raising your gamestage very fast compared to the time spent looting. The "best" solution would be to mod the game to lower the gamestage requirements to unlocking the next stage (something like 6/31/71 instead of the current 11/51/91). Haven't checked if it's easily doable though.

 

Anyway this isn't so much about "fixing the issue by modding or changing the settings" as it is about Vanilla progression that 95% of the playerbase are gonna experience as is.