So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Xtrakicking]

41 minutes ago, Roland said:

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

 

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

 

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

I think when they say "crap" they're mostly referring to the stone tier stuff, which is crap loot if you're scavenging a gun store where most people would want to at least get some weapon parts.

[Ralathar44]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

 

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

 

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

It's hard not to with what is being said.  Since one particular poster is taking exception to my comment folks are looking for better loot (their words verbatim "I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, ") I'll pull quotes from them specifically this time showing them literally asking for better loot in this same thread: 

 

2 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

I think when they say "crap" they're mostly referring to the stone tier stuff, which is crap loot if you're scavenging a gun store where most people would want to at least get some weapon parts.

 

On 7/15/2020 at 2:09 PM, Xtrakicking said:

Notice how I never mentioned base building. The problem is with the items you get when looting. Now, obviously it seems like in spite of the new system you still find loot worth it in your experience. Wanna know my experience? Let's see what's in this Working Stiffs. Scrap, scrap, scrap, scrap. Great! I just got 8 stones out of that Working Stiffs. Woo hoo!

 

On 7/15/2020 at 10:21 AM, Xtrakicking said:

I think it's important to get something very clear: The problem with loot is in the gameplay itself, not just in the realism aspect. There's no incentive in looting when the game forbids you of getting anything else that's not made of stone for days. It's simply bad design.

 

On 7/15/2020 at 5:31 AM, Xtrakicking said:

Ohhhh right right right. What could possibly be better than a T5 blunderbuss, ay? I'm certainly willing to waste all my resources and risk my life against high tier enemies for all those sweet blunderbusses that for some unknown cosmic power are all you can find stored away in a gun store in 2034.

 

On 7/15/2020 at 3:45 AM, Xtrakicking said:

That being said, the problem with the stone age thing now isn't just related to realism, it's a gameplay problem. If I enter a Shotgun Messiah risking my life fighting against ferals on day 1 and I manage to beat them, I deserve a reward as a player. Thus, finding primitive gear worse than the gear I already have in all the damn boxes is frustrating as hell, especially if you play without 30 day respawn loot, because it basically means that looting that Shotgun Messiah was an absolute waste in every sense possible, just because you decided to loot it too early. That right there is the problem, and a serious one at that.

I'm not pulling my "hot take" out of the ether.  I'm reading what people are writing and holding them to their own words.  I pay attention, I read every word, I try to understand the various motivations intertwined, and above all I don't forget someone made comments just because it's buried in a long post 3 pages back.  If I'm unsure I double check.  Even most of the folks biggest on the "realism" aspect are 100% also asking for better loot.  Whether you want to consider the "realism" argument being used as a trojan horse or whether you want to consider the better loot a side effect of more realism is a matter of interpretation/spin.  But they have ben inexcticably tied together by almost everyone arguing for "realism".

I'm honestly sympathetic to the argument of modifying the loot tables to provide more materials and plans are in place to give higher risk higher reward options for A20 with the system for modifying POI gamestage, I just don't like the dishonesty.  And I think if we had primitive versions of all skill tree firearms I think some of that want for higher loot would go away. 

[uselessjunkaccount]

I'm happy to see that most people like the new changes. I love anything that stretches out the technology tiers. In the previous two alphas you could have 3-4 guns and ammo for them along with armor, a junk turret and a wrench if you really tried. Personally, I don't see that as realistic at all either but I don't think this game was built to be realistic anyway. I particularly enjoy this because it disincentivizes the cheesing of loot.

[Raestloz]

10 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

"Sealed" in the case of wooden shipping crates means nailed. VERY easy to open and reseal as new looking.

I personally don't see a lot of reason for someone to open a crate, take what's inside, put in what they had (i.e stone axe) and then seal it back, without booby trapping it

1. If they don't plan to come back again, why bother? It's dangerous with all the zombies around, the less time you spend somewhere unsafe, the better
2. If they do plan to come back again, why bother? As a storage you're just inconveniencing yourself with re-opening the seal and sealing it back every time. If they want to ambush people, why bother sealing the crate? Simply put up a board masquerading it as new and booby trap the area around the crate itself instead

[Xtrakicking]

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

I pay attention, I read every word, I try to understand the various motivations intertwined

You should try harder, because you just showed how you misinterpreted every single one of those quotations of mine. I frankly find it amusing how you're trying to paint me as someone who's only mad because I'm not getting super gear early on. You just can't seem to understand what the problem is. Getting stone gear stuff from a gun store is absurd, it doesn't make sense, and that's what I state in each one of those quotations.

 

I see for the sake of your narrative you also forgot to quote this:

On 7/15/2020 at 9:09 PM, Xtrakicking said:

Nope. If TFP decided tomorrow that now all the Tazas indian chests in the game contained 5 assault rifles of the greatest quality and 2 rocket launchers on day 1, I would most certainly rant again.

If the loot doesn't make sense for the POI/container where it is hidden, it doesn't make sense and should be changed to something that makes sense. Maybe you think I want AKs and rifles in gun stores on day 1, but I never said that. Loot could be some gun parts, some ammo, some mods, some iron ingots, etc. All those make sense for a gun store, and I don't think they are super gear.

9 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

I just don't like the dishonesty

But what dishonesty? I'm not here trying to hide ulterior motives. You think that I'm using realism as a red herring, but just because you think that doesn't mean it's the case. This is all a product of your personal apprehension towards the aspect of immersion. 

[Onarr]

15 hours ago, Roland said:

Good points. However, the raison d'etre for having a public thread regarding these complaints is so that people who have no problem with immersion and people who do feel rewarded and like the progression can also voice their disagreements to the complaints. What some seem to want is a vacuum into which they can state their opinion. Essentially, they would like for me to lock the thread and only allow posts that agree with them to be posted.

 

As for the F.A.Q. idea..... We've learned from sad experience that all a F.A.Q. accomplishes is a new kind of frustration where people are still repeating themselves over and over on the forums and we are also repeating ourselves over and over to go read the F.A.Q. And then the questioning person being offended that people can't just tell them instead of sending them somewhere. Happens on the steam forum all the time.

 

Case in point: Grokking Early Access.....

 

That is perfectly ok. The disagreement on issues force us to dig deeper and eventually we can even find a common ground and brainstorm a solution. Or just call each other names, but from my experience these forums are very civil. It suprises me.

By F.A.Q I meant - we identified this issue and will adress it. Perheps F.A.Q. is not the right name for it. Identified gameplay issues? As an example

 

Disclaimer: As this game is in alpha, all things are subject to change

• PoIs have same rewards across all tiers, no matter how challenging they are.
  • Will be adressed  by increasing gamestage for harder PoIs. This means tougher enemies and better loot
• World feels empty outside of PoIs, not many zombies outside
  • Random events will be added into game once tech for them is ready. This could include random bandit ambush, car breaking down and luring nearby zombies etc.
• Mines and pitfalls suck.
  • They do. But do not forget - you can always wrench mines

[AtomicUs5000]

Maybe all whole weapons and tools should just be:

• rare zombie drops
• trader secret stash depending on gamestage
• rare mission rewards depending on mission, trader specialty, and gamestage.
• once in a while found in hidden secret stashes.

Everywhere else, you just get the parts. The amount of parts and the types of parts would then be governed by gamestage, POI type, container type (although since they are parts, it might broaden the different container types in which they might be found).

It could slow things down even more, which could be good or bad depending on your perspective... but it sure solves a lot of problems. Dare I say, most of the problems outlined in this thread?

After mid-game, you scrap almost everything into parts, or if it's decent, you repair it for selling... people could just craft them into whole weapons/tools for better selling instead. This means less carrying around individual weapons for selling, and carrying stackable parts instead. I see that as a big plus. Back in A16, we spent many nights going through parts trying to build better weapons. Some of that can return to the game as we spend our nights putting together weapons and tools (the best we can depending on our perks) for sale the next day.
 
Rarely some zombies could actually spawn into the world with a spear stuck in them. If they can do it with a spear, then they could do it with an axe as well.  Maybe an arrow or two once in a while. Not that this would be necessary, but might as well spice things up a little since we're hypothetically playing with the loot system here.

[Onarr]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

 

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

 

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

It not about immersion to ME. I cannot talk about others. I think its not either they just call it immersion you call it entirely different word and thus the confusion.

[Onarr]

11 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

It's hard not to with what is being said.  Since one particular poster is taking exception to my comment folks are looking for better loot (their words verbatim "I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, ") I'll pull quotes from them specifically this time showing them literally asking for better loot in this same thread: 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not pulling my "hot take" out of the ether.  I'm reading what people are writing and holding them to their own words.  I pay attention, I read every word, I try to understand the various motivations intertwined, and above all I don't forget someone made comments just because it's buried in a long post 3 pages back.  If I'm unsure I double check.  Even most of the folks biggest on the "realism" aspect are 100% also asking for better loot.  Whether you want to consider the "realism" argument being used as a trojan horse or whether you want to consider the better loot a side effect of more realism is a matter of interpretation/spin.  But they have ben inexcticably tied together by almost everyone arguing for "realism".

I'm honestly sympathetic to the argument of modifying the loot tables to provide more materials and plans are in place to give higher risk higher reward options for A20 with the system for modifying POI gamestage, I just don't like the dishonesty.  And I think if we had primitive versions of all skill tree firearms I think some of that want for higher loot would go away. 

Well I guess I will finally react to you. You obviously do not read, double check. If you would do that, you could clearly see that "I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, " and quotes you posted do not disprove each other.

I see you like to argue, but look, not everone here might be as smart as you. That does not mean they are dishonest. They just call things different, perhaps they do not use the right words, but that does not diminish their opinion or make them lying @%$*#!s. They feel something is wrong with their game and voice it in certain manner.

[Raestloz]

16 minutes ago, Onarr said:

You obviously do not read, double check.

If he did, he wouldn't have rambled about "limiting yourself to realism" in response to my 2 posts about why and how non realistic scenarios can work. I try my best not to go down to the level of personal attacks, but I can't believe he just said "I pay attention" after that one

[beHypE]

I gotta say the slow progression is probably a bit overtuned. We're on day 10 (1.5 hours day, so basically vanilla day 15) now in a 3-man group, and we've only found one Q1 pistol in some toilets. Nothing else aside from blunderbusses, even though we're gamestage 35.

 

I like the slow progression as a whole but I fear for the loss of replayability. A great part of starting over was not knowing in which order you'd find what. The loot tables are so narrow for so long right now, I actually know exactly what to expect if I start over...

[Onarr]

47 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Maybe all whole weapons and tools should just be:

• rare zombie drops
• trader secret stash depending on gamestage
• rare mission rewards depending on mission, trader specialty, and gamestage.
• once in a while found in hidden secret stashes.

Everywhere else, you just get the parts. The amount of parts and the types of parts would then be governed by gamestage, POI type, container type (although since they are parts, it might broaden the different container types in which they might be found).

It could slow things down even more, which could be good or bad depending on your perspective... but it sure solves a lot of problems. Dare I say, most of the problems outlined in this thread?

After mid-game, you scrap almost everything into parts, or if it's decent, you repair it for selling... people could just craft them into whole weapons/tools for better selling instead. This means less carrying around individual weapons for selling, and carrying stackable parts instead. I see that as a big plus. Back in A16, we spent many nights going through parts trying to build better weapons. Some of that can return to the game as we spend our nights putting together weapons and tools (the best we can depending on our perks) for sale the next day.
 
Rarely some zombies could actually spawn into the world with a spear stuck in them. If they can do it with a spear, then they could do it with an axe as well.  Maybe an arrow or two once in a while. Not that this would be necessary, but might as well spice things up a little since we're hypothetically playing with the loot system here.

I like that idea. I do not really enjoy gathering @%$*#!loads of weapons, hoarding them and later selling them to trader. Crafting them more seems nice.

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Maybe all whole weapons and tools should just be:

• rare zombie drops
• trader secret stash depending on gamestage
• rare mission rewards depending on mission, trader specialty, and gamestage.
• once in a while found in hidden secret stashes.

Everywhere else, you just get the parts. The amount of parts and the types of parts would then be governed by gamestage, POI type, container type (although since they are parts, it might broaden the different container types in which they might be found).

It could slow things down even more, which could be good or bad depending on your perspective... but it sure solves a lot of problems. Dare I say, most of the problems outlined in this thread?

After mid-game, you scrap almost everything into parts, or if it's decent, you repair it for selling... people could just craft them into whole weapons/tools for better selling instead. This means less carrying around individual weapons for selling, and carrying stackable parts instead. I see that as a big plus. Back in A16, we spent many nights going through parts trying to build better weapons. Some of that can return to the game as we spend our nights putting together weapons and tools (the best we can depending on our perks) for sale the next day.
 
Rarely some zombies could actually spawn into the world with a spear stuck in them. If they can do it with a spear, then they could do it with an axe as well.  Maybe an arrow or two once in a while. Not that this would be necessary, but might as well spice things up a little since we're hypothetically playing with the loot system here.

I would prefer still finding them in gun safes but in a state where it makes sense.

 

I mean lets take an avarage american home for example:

You can expect a pistol or a revolver, a hunting rifle/hunting shotgun and thats it. In a military base you can expect automatic weapons like m60 and their kind and some marksman rifles.

 

Modify the numbers and the repair costs and it becomes much balanced. The baseline should be that even if you find a marksman rifle in a military outpost you cant just repair it that easily so you continue on with careful balancing it still makes sense to loot these places for guns but does not mean "We reached endgame" when you have them.

 

 

A simple recipe for a new repair kit like: Repair Kit + 10 Cloth + 5 Oil (craftable from Oil Shale or animal fat) + 50 Iron = Full Repair Kit

This item would allow you to repair military guns but because it requies much more materials to do so, players might not be able to rush into endgame as fast.

 

 

[Fren]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:52 AM, Roland said:

 

 

The trader nerf is coming so pretty soon rewards and store inventory will be similar.

What does this mean exactly? What will be changed? U mean this: 

 

All traders still sell everything, but now each one specializes in something. Joel sells armor, Jen sells meds, Bob sells vehicles and tools, Hugh sells weapons and ammo, and Rekt will sell food and seeds.

 

I just hate to see the early game ruined by stuff being bought by the trader. I just like the survival aspect so much. I love the new loot system. I can't remember the time I struggle to find feathers or some nice loot in POI and for the first time in months, perhaps a year, I had to think of food...  Chasing animals like never before...  I love it! 

 

But hey, then my friend pops up, did 2 trader mission, buried supplies, bought a level 1 gun and silencer... and pops every Zeds head from the start... Ammo can be plenty if u got the right rewards from ur next mission...  I really hope that traders will be readjusted further.  It's a survival game... not a -i-buy-everyting-i-want- game.  U cant expect traders to exist in a real infested world who will pay/buy/sell everything you have/want. 

 

I like the quest idea tho... and sure u can get a reward for that but a little less might be interesting :@ 

 

[Raestloz]

5 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Full Repair Kit

Personally, I like the idea of "Ol' Reliable" gun that you only take out when failure is not an option, but so expensive you don't want to use it all the time

 

The full repair kit is one thing, but I feel that limiting it to only "full repair kit" might make using it feel like a grind (as in, ugh yet another chore of finding the repair components) such that you'd rather not use it out of spite

[Solomon]

7 minutes ago, Raestloz said:

Personally, I like the idea of "Ol' Reliable" gun that you only take out when failure is not an option, but so expensive you don't want to use it all the time

 

The full repair kit is one thing, but I feel that limiting it to only "full repair kit" might make using it feel like a grind (as in, ugh yet another chore of finding the repair components) such that you'd rather not use it out of spite

Thats sadly true, it would either increase the grind or create some other kind of problem what creates complaints.

 

I honestly want to see much more weapons added to the game so the " Ol' Reliable" actually happens.

 

Atleast 6 different pistols in the endline with a high caliber magnum what can kill zombies in a line but is both expensive to repair, rare to find and a bit unwieldy, same deal for all weapon classes.

[Glaston]

If we want realism, I would be happy to see a huge reduction in ore veins both number and size.

 

 

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Fren said:

On 7/12/2020 at 12:52 AM, Roland said:

 

What does this mean exactly? What will be changed? U mean this: 

No...not that. That’s not a nerf that is coming that was a change already made to differentiate the traders a bit. The nerf will be so that weapons and tools available to purchase will not appear so much sooner than they do in loot—or will be much more expensive if they do. It defeats the progression to be able to purchase a gun on day one or two so they are going to make some changes there. 

[JCrook1028]

13 hours ago, Raestloz said:

I personally don't see a lot of reason for someone to open a crate, take what's inside, put in what they had (i.e stone axe) and then seal it back, without booby trapping it

1. If they don't plan to come back again, why bother? It's dangerous with all the zombies around, the less time you spend somewhere unsafe, the better
2. If they do plan to come back again, why bother? As a storage you're just inconveniencing yourself with re-opening the seal and sealing it back every time. If they want to ambush people, why bother sealing the crate? Simply put up a board masquerading it as new and booby trap the area around the crate itself instead

Or, the Duke / White River factions are reusing old shipping crates to supply the stores. Why make new when you can reuse existing?

8 hours ago, Solomon said:

 

 

I mean lets take an avarage american home for example:

You can expect a pistol or a revolver, a hunting rifle/hunting shotgun and thats it. In a military base you can expect automatic weapons like m60 and their kind and some marksman rifles.

 

 

 

 

Just for info: AR-15 (common RL example of the game's Marksman) is a VERY common rifle in US Homes and would never be found at a military base. Mil uses select fire rifles. You would find the game's "Sniper" rifle at the bases tho, as well as the full auto stuff. Tho even those CAN be owned by a private citizen, they just require a permit and are super expensive.

 

Best overall is not to try and mimic RL, best is what works for gameplay. Period.

[uselessjunkaccount]

14 hours ago, Raestloz said:

I personally don't see a lot of reason for someone to open a crate, take what's inside, put in what they had (i.e stone axe) and then seal it back, without booby trapping it

1. If they don't plan to come back again, why bother? It's dangerous with all the zombies around, the less time you spend somewhere unsafe, the better
2. If they do plan to come back again, why bother? As a storage you're just inconveniencing yourself with re-opening the seal and sealing it back every time. If they want to ambush people, why bother sealing the crate? Simply put up a board masquerading it as new and booby trap the area around the crate itself instead

 

 

I think the contents of these boxes, if we're looking at this from a realism perspective, show they were re-sealed. Why would any company ship 3 books and 18 pieces of paper in a wooden crate? Or five pills and six bandages? Or one handgun, 2 random parts from a stun baton and 39 bullets? It would be absurdly expensive to ship and most of the time they would end up losing money, based on what is in these boxes many times. The quantities alone show you they aren't from the factory as no one sells things in such random, arbitrary amounts. Have you ever bought paper in packs of 18? Or a box of 39 bullets? Or a singular antibiotic pill?

[AtomicUs5000]

All I know is that when the apoc comes, I'm labeling my box of guns, "Manure", hell, might even cover them with manure in the box... if I even put my stuff in a box. Come to think of it, it's no wonder that everyone is a zombie. Stupid people putting all their stuff away in boxes. That needs to be out and ready for immediate use at all times. That one guy going around stashing pistols in toilets had the right idea, but unfortunate for him, I've found them all. But maybe it was more than just trying to hide the pistols. Maybe it was like when you take your seat on the throne and forget to check for toilet paper first. I imagine during apoc, you don't want to be unprepared while in the middle of squeezing one out and a zed barges in on you.

[Jeraal]

12 hours ago, Fren said:

What does this mean exactly? What will be changed? U mean this: 

 

 

 

 

I just hate to see the early game ruined by stuff being bought by the trader. I just like the survival aspect so much. I love the new loot system. I can't remember the time I struggle to find feathers or some nice loot in POI and for the first time in months, perhaps a year, I had to think of food...  Chasing animals like never before...  I love it! 

 

But hey, then my friend pops up, did 2 trader mission, buried supplies, bought a level 1 gun and silencer... and pops every Zeds head from the start... Ammo can be plenty if u got the right rewards from ur next mission...  I really hope that traders will be readjusted further.  It's a survival game... not a -i-buy-everyting-i-want- game.  U cant expect traders to exist in a real infested world who will pay/buy/sell everything you have/want. 

 

I like the quest idea tho... and sure u can get a reward for that but a little less might be interesting :@ 

 

I hate the new loot system and if I can manage to find a bunch of coin early, why can't I get something good?

 

As for your friend, why do you not want him to be able to play the way he wants to? 

[Raestloz]

9 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Or, the Duke / White River factions are reusing old shipping crates to supply the stores. Why make new when you can reuse existing?

Why would anyone supply the stores? It's a very bad idea to just let your precious supplies out there in the open without anyone protecting them. It's very clear that those supplies are useful, otherwise they'd have been discarded. Setting aside the stone axe that spawned the issue, there are bullets in them

 

8 hours ago, uselessjunkaccount said:

I think the contents of these boxes, if we're looking at this from a realism perspective, show they were re-sealed.

Then the question is why would anyone ever want to re-seal those boxes? As I've noted, there's no reason to do that

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

Maybe raise the hp for safes, so that it takes a much longer time to open them. That way you DO get a  gun, but only after spending a day breaking it open. Then again, if you do one or two quests, you can go and buy one from the trader, so honestly the crummy loot won't kill you. Also hitting level 20 does not take very long at all. 

[Fren]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

No...not that. That’s not a nerf that is coming that was a change already made to differentiate the traders a bit. The nerf will be so that weapons and tools available to purchase will not appear so much sooner than they do in loot—or will be much more expensive if they do. It defeats the progression to be able to purchase a gun on day one or two so they are going to make some changes there. 

Sounds good :D 

12 hours ago, Jeraal said:

I hate the new loot system and if I can manage to find a bunch of coin early, why can't I get something good?

 

As for your friend, why do you not want him to be able to play the way he wants to? 

He should play the way he wants. I just say that it's not the way a survival game should be. Thats my opinion.

Besides that: I think everyone buys something from the coins, I dont mind that, I just think it shouldnt be the base of this game.  Just dont overdo it... 

Its about survival, collecting, scavenging and building. Not about relaxing, digging up treasures over and over again and just buy stuff u want instead of doing a little more yourself.