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So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?


watzlp

Should Primitive tools and weapons lootable in the first place?  

250 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Primitive Stone tools and weapons be found in Sealed Pre-Apocalypse Sealed Boxes?

    • Yes.
      40
    • No.
      145
    • Yea, Even though its emersion breaking, for "Game Balance" you should find survivor made tools and weapons in boxes from probably over a hundred years ago.
      24
    • No, I cant craft lv6 quality loot as a survivor, why would people from before all this happen be selling things youd only make after the apocalypse happend?
      28
    • I didnt read anything you wrote and just came here to say "Get Gud Scrub" Thus adding nothing to the conversation.
      13


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15 hours ago, HungryZombie said:

I enjoy the loot now better than any previous version going back to A15. I used to get bored after the first week or two because I had everything there was to get. I'm looking forward to TFP tweeking it further but they are definitely on the right path.

exactly what TFP say  ...now  its roughtly   week 1 stone week 2  iron  weel 3-4 moving to low quality steel

some are just mad they no longer dont have  q4-q6  steel shovel from first car (yellow steel shovel is literaly first  tool i dropped  in a18 :D )

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34 minutes ago, alanea said:

exactly what TFP say  ...now  its roughtly   week 1 stone week 2  iron  weel 3-4 moving to low quality steel

some are just mad they no longer dont have  q4-q6  steel shovel from first car (yellow steel shovel is literaly first  tool i dropped  in a18 :D )

Defenders of the current system love this straw man.... no one has argued they should get "q4-q6 steel shovel from first car" or completely set up with Q6 items in the first week, as others have suggested.   At least, I haven't seen anyone make those points.

 

Personally, I don't mind the current system.   I did like the older system better.   I like the potential of getting a game changing item at any point, because that can make each playthrough different.  In A18, it's true that there were too many good drops and that certainly needed to be toned down but, IMO, they went too far.   

 

Tying looting to game stage isn't a terrible idea at all, as long as the possibility of getting something really good still exists.   It should be very rare (increasing in chance as your GS increases) but not impossible.

 

 

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I don't believe you should find "stone age" tools in boxes. Yes I am a "realist". The ENTIRE purpose of a working stiff tools is exactly that. Working, Stiff, Tools. Not flimsy, stone, tools.. It is completely unrealistic to expect to find steel tools on day 1 but it is NOT unrealistic to expect to find at least a level 1 pickaxe OR fireaxe. If we're going to raid a shotgun messiah, we expect to see guns. How much guns? That specifically should be determined by your Game Stage as the devs intend, however it should not be thrown off the table as a lot of people are claiming its "game breaking" and "realists are ruining it".

 

Why does a shotgun messiah need all those stone axes? They sell literal shotguns and well.. guns. Not axes. "looters could've put it there" sure, looters came back x amount of days later to put ALL new weapons in those cupboards, cabinets, and resealed every single box with guns this time because SURELY raiders fell for the stone tools.

 

Its truly a broken concept. I believe in the dev diary they were going to make every POI have a gamestage or loot tied to it so you were guaranteed to find something of use. Like a shotgun at shotgun messiah or A tool OR 2 at a working stiff tools regardless of game stage. Let's not forget, this is a HALFWAY finished CONCEPT. Instead of fighting to remove it lets find ways to ENHANCE IT so everyone can be happy. I've seen posts of "boohoo i'm not kitted out on day 1" that doesn't help. That is specifically what we DON'T want. We want to get SOMETHING of actual use instead of a better stone axe than we have. Looting is a MAJOR part of the game and they have specific POIs for that specific loot.

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1 hour ago, Darklegend222 said:

I don't believe you should find "stone age" tools in boxes. Yes I am a "realist". The ENTIRE purpose of a working stiff tools is exactly that. Working, Stiff, Tools. Not flimsy, stone, tools.. It is completely unrealistic to expect to find steel tools on day 1 but it is NOT unrealistic to expect to find at least a level 1 pickaxe OR fireaxe. If we're going to raid a shotgun messiah, we expect to see guns. How much guns? That specifically should be determined by your Game Stage as the devs intend, however it should not be thrown off the table as a lot of people are claiming its "game breaking" and "realists are ruining it".

 

Why does a shotgun messiah need all those stone axes? They sell literal shotguns and well.. guns. Not axes. "looters could've put it there" sure, looters came back x amount of days later to put ALL new weapons in those cupboards, cabinets, and resealed every single box with guns this time because SURELY raiders fell for the stone tools.

 

Its truly a broken concept. I believe in the dev diary they were going to make every POI have a gamestage or loot tied to it so you were guaranteed to find something of use. Like a shotgun at shotgun messiah or A tool OR 2 at a working stiff tools regardless of game stage. Let's not forget, this is a HALFWAY finished CONCEPT. Instead of fighting to remove it lets find ways to ENHANCE IT so everyone can be happy. I've seen posts of "boohoo i'm not kitted out on day 1" that doesn't help. That is specifically what we DON'T want. We want to get SOMETHING of actual use instead of a better stone axe than we have. Looting is a MAJOR part of the game and they have specific POIs for that specific loot.

You argue both sides with every other sentence...lol. I'm really not sure where you stand. ;)

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7 hours ago, Roland said:

You argue both sides with every other sentence...lol. I'm really not sure where you stand. ;)

 @Darklegend222 is pretty clear about it, but I think you have already made up your mind that those complaining about it just want instant gratification, that's why you don't understand what he is saying 😛

 

With degradation gone, are you honestly surprised that people aren't thrilled to keep looting stone tools and keep opening their inventory to scrap them for a stone and some fibers? Also would it kill them to make lootlists more plausible (and exclusive)? (Random not well-thought) example: What could a low GS (allegedly looted) SM safe contain? Some gunpowder, perhaps a single part, sometimes only a couple of bullets, rarely some glue/duct tape, very rarely a broken low quality weapon, a repair kit or a human turd (bring them back plz) etc. In other words they can at least throw in some virtual carrots.

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3 hours ago, RestInPieces said:

 @Darklegend222 is pretty clear about it, but I think you have already made up your mind that those complaining about it just want instant gratification, that's why you don't understand what he is saying 😛

 

With degradation gone, are you honestly surprised that people aren't thrilled to keep looting stone tools and keep opening their inventory to scrap them for a stone and some fibers? Also would it kill them to make lootlists more plausible (and exclusive)? (Random not well-thought) example: What could a low GS (allegedly looted) SM safe contain? Some gunpowder, perhaps a single part, sometimes only a couple of bullets, rarely some glue/duct tape, very rarely a broken low quality weapon, a repair kit or a human turd (bring them back plz) etc. In other words they can at least throw in some virtual carrots.

Oh I’m all for more plausible loot lists. I’ve never argued against them improving the game. And yes, this need to avoid high tier stuff at all in the early game is precisely because there is no item defradation

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

Oh I’m all for more plausible loot lists. I’ve never argued against them improving the game. And yes, this need to avoid high tier stuff at all in the early game is precisely because there is no item defradation

I'm seeing the opportunity for a single container in the game with the word "LOOT" on it.

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On 8/27/2020 at 6:40 PM, Kalen said:

Defenders of the current system love this straw man.... no one has argued they should get "q4-q6 steel shovel from first car" or completely set up with Q6 items in the first week, as others have suggested.   At least, I haven't seen anyone make those points.

 

Personally, I don't mind the current system.   I did like the older system better.   I like the potential of getting a game changing item at any point, because that can make each playthrough different.  In A18, it's true that there were too many good drops and that certainly needed to be toned down but, IMO, they went too far.   

 

Tying looting to game stage isn't a terrible idea at all, as long as the possibility of getting something really good still exists.   It should be very rare (increasing in chance as your GS increases) but not impossible.

well  lot of people actually does  some of  whiners want  go back to  100%  random loot  not seeing anything bad on  chance for  top stuff in first container

 

keep in mind game have  200  levels   lets call it days as  level per day is  +-  fiting to looting playstyle

a17/18  give you  99,99%  items  before day  100   and like  90%  on first week  if you went perc  and actively looted    everything top tier  Q5-Q6 after   2-3  weeks  was   100%  normal  giving you almost all loot before you finished 10%  making  90%  pointless xp grind  thats what TFP wanted stop

 

 yes you can get ak on day  1 .. pistol on ak is  almost guaranteed  but jsut  1-2  quality  you need like   21 days  to get into phase where 2-4  steel tools drop commonly   and  30+ or 40+  to make  Q5-6 common  meaning youa re stilllikely to get  most juicy stuff before level  50+-  our of  200  is that crazy and limiting?  people just hate specific things like stone tools in safes  but thats just because  most safes shouldnt contain  m60  on day  1  and they chosen to give us stuff like primitive bow instead nothing  .. and that  heavily backfired  iam sure they will find way  how to resolve it they plan primitive tiers of guns  ... and likely get rid of stone tools  for some  bad quality ones instead

 

16 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

I don't believe you should find "stone age" tools in boxes. Yes I am a "realist". The ENTIRE purpose of a working stiff tools is exactly that. Working, Stiff, Tools. Not flimsy, stone, tools.. It is completely unrealistic to expect to find steel tools on day 1 but it is NOT unrealistic to expect to find at least a level 1 pickaxe OR fireaxe. If we're going to raid a shotgun messiah, we expect to see guns. How much guns? That specifically should be determined by your Game Stage as the devs intend, however it should not be thrown off the table as a lot of people are claiming its "game breaking" and "realists are ruining it".

TFP  clearly want  you go through all tiers of gear .... sooo whats supposed to drop in those boxes at gamestage where they dont want you to get iron yet??? (easily because there is chance from start)

 

16 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

 

Why does a shotgun messiah need all those stone axes? They sell literal shotguns and well.. guns. Not axes. "looters could've put it there" sure, looters came back x amount of days later to put ALL new weapons in those cupboards, cabinets, and resealed every single box with guns this time because SURELY raiders fell for the stone tools.

 

Its truly a broken concept. I believe in the dev diary they were going to make every POI have a gamestage or loot tied to it so you were guaranteed to find something of use. Like a shotgun at shotgun messiah or A tool OR 2 at a working stiff tools regardless of game stage. Let's not forget, this is a HALFWAY finished CONCEPT. Instead of fighting to remove it lets find ways to ENHANCE IT so everyone can be happy. I've seen posts of "boohoo i'm not kitted out on day 1" that doesn't help. That is specifically what we DON'T want. We want to get SOMETHING of actual use instead of a better stone axe than we have. Looting is a MAJOR part of the game and they have specific POIs for that specific loot.

they said  poi should have bonus ... but since they want forced prohression  you can forget auto shotgun  regardless of day

most likely they jsut add some  percentage to gamestage to make those  loot sites feel " stronger"  but not returning to instant top tier loot  as thats something they clearly dont want  in game  and what they fight against

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Oh I’m all for more plausible loot lists. I’ve never argued against them improving the game. And yes, this need to avoid high tier stuff at all in the early game is precisely because there is no item defradation

degradation  is gone since we can combine stuff but even if gear  degraded ... they want you to go through gear tiers instead goind straight to steel because such option make  stone/ iron pointless and ridiculously shorten gameplay

" look i have top tools  at day 14 .... lets  farm another 100 days just for xp "

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4 minutes ago, alanea said:

keep in mind game have  200  levels   lets call it days as  level per day is  +-  fiting to looting playstyle

a17/18  give you  99,99%  items  before day  100   and like  90%  on first week  if you went perc  and actively looted    everything top tier  Q5-Q6 after   2-3  weeks  was   100%  normal  giving you almost all loot before you finished 10%  making  90%  pointless xp grind  thats what TFP wanted stop

You're conflating two issues:  Chance of a good item and frequency of a good item.   You can have 100% random loot but still turn down the frequency of good items.   A17/A18 wasn't great for looting because of the frequency of good items.... not because of the possibility of good items, IMO.   A19 isn't great because of the zero possibility of good items at early GS, again IMO.

 

When you have no possibility, you get people that purposely don't loot certain containers for fear of "wasting" them.   That's not good for the game, IMO.   Have the chance, make it really small, and people loot with hope.

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6 minutes ago, Kalen said:

When you have no possibility, you get people that purposely don't loot certain containers for fear of "wasting" them.   That's not good for the game, IMO.   Have the chance, make it really small, and people loot with hope.

I think that sums up the issue concisely... at least for me. This is what I am experiencing.
It's not completely horrible, but I feel like it's a reverse LBD,.. IBI. Improvement by ignorance.

 

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1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

I think that sums up the issue concisely... at least for me. This is what I am experiencing.
It's not completely horrible, but I feel like it's a reverse LBD,.. IBI. Improvement by ignorance.

 

100% agreed. It's been my experience too.

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3 hours ago, Kalen said:

You're conflating two issues:  Chance of a good item and frequency of a good item.   You can have 100% random loot but still turn down the frequency of good items.   A17/A18 wasn't great for looting because of the frequency of good items.... not because of the possibility of good items, IMO.   A19 isn't great because of the zero possibility of good items at early GS, again IMO.

 

When you have no possibility, you get people that purposely don't loot certain containers for fear of "wasting" them.   That's not good for the game, IMO.   Have the chance, make it really small, and people loot with hope.

That experiment would interest me as well. Lets assume the chance is so low that you would find a tier1 weapon in early game once every 5 playthroughs. That to me would be seldom. Would you be okay with this number?

 

If yes, would people who are now not looting the ammo boxes change their attitude? I doubt it somewhat. Because it seems to be too small a change in day to day practice

 

 

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39 minutes ago, meganoth said:

That experiment would interest me as well. Lets assume the chance is so low that you would find a tier1 weapon in early game once every 5 playthroughs. That to me would be seldom. Would you be okay with this number?

 

If yes, would people who are now not looting the ammo boxes change their attitude? I doubt it somewhat. Because it seems to be too small a change in day to day practice

 

 

I feel like that is a reasonable number.   But, I also don't feel quite as strongly about as others in these multiple threads.   I already loot everything I can find... so I may not be the best example to use.

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19 hours ago, Kalen said:

You're conflating two issues:  Chance of a good item and frequency of a good item.   You can have 100% random loot but still turn down the frequency of good items.   A17/A18 wasn't great for looting because of the frequency of good items.... not because of the possibility of good items, IMO.   A19 isn't great because of the zero possibility of good items at early GS, again IMO.

problem is that possibility isnt  zero :D

depends of your definition ...  while i didnt see Q6 m60 first week  i dropped 

Q6 pistol on  day 4  from gunsafe

q3 desert vulture on second week

q5 iron shovel on day  two ( with candy tho)

atleast  5x Q6 wrench before day 14  (first before first horde)

 

its hard to tell whats good item most people is like "  meh just iron shovel" sure its not endgame stuff you gonna keep ... but its  huge upgrade over some crap stone shovelc ..q6pistol  for rfirst horde ?  sure smg would be better .... but its basically god item

 

while its possible that q5 q6 " top tier"  is locked (or at very small chance) you can drop  Q1quite easily  during first week ( had  4+  during first horde)

Quote

 

When you have no possibility, you get people that purposely don't loot certain containers for fear of "wasting" them.   That's not good for the game, IMO.   Have the chance, make it really small, and people loot with hope.

 chance always exist  .. its just small and turned into zero by not even trying to loot but  its hard to explain such stuff to people who even dont realize loot will respawn before they reach " gamestage they see as worthy" anyway

 

some people are so spoiled by shooting zombies by q6 ak  and diging with q6   steel tools  on first days  that they will bash every  version not allowing them to do it  they dont care  if is chance 0  or just small TFP took that feeling of being OP  from beginning  from them  instead they are  feeling weak .. forced to use melee ... bows .. primitive tools  after being spoiled by a17 a18  insanity

 

it doesnt matter luckily those people are minority

majority  likes new system and progression  and just have some complaints on specific areas (like primitive tools in sealed chests)

you can be sure this wont be solved by  gibing iron /steel tools/m60  into every sealed container they can  just add  more immersive stuff like ammo  ... scrap =broken weapon

rusty crap tools with stats like  stone ones and similar stuff

 

TFP think there should be progression to   get people through  tiers .. so there will be progression  ,, they never back off main ideas like this there was shi* storm after

LBD

uncraftable top tier

demolishers

zombie ai

vehicle bloodmoon

undetected bases  at sky /bedrock

diging zombies

auger nerf

hunger in a17

....  and probably enought more to fill 5 pages

 

but judge  yourself  what complains changed ... they have rock solid vision and will continue progression building on current progression regardless of cry topics around  .. likely solving minor issues that bother most  but in their vision  ... top tier items shouldnt be a thing early

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3 hours ago, alanea said:

problem is that possibility isnt  zero

Except that it is zero.... look in the xml and you will see that

 

    <lootprobtemplate name="ProbT1">
        <loot level="0,9" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.04"/>
        <loot level="13,14" prob="0.04"/>

 

Probability of a T1 item is 0 from GS 0-9

3 hours ago, alanea said:

Q6 pistol on  day 4  from gunsafe

Q6 can't drop until GS 110.  Not sure how you got a GS that high by day 4

 

Again, from the xml

 

<!-- QL4 starts at 50, QL5 at 80, QL6 at 110 -->

 

You can also check out

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QdvwJZQG8RxbQi-G0fQPx5Kr3pEddBcJK2kYy86OpPk/edit#gid=603484266

 

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9 hours ago, Kalen said:

Except that it is zero.... look in the xml and you will see that

 

    <lootprobtemplate name="ProbT1">
        <loot level="0,9" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.04"/>
        <loot level="13,14" prob="0.04"/>

 

Probability of a T1 item is 0 from GS 0-9

Q6 can't drop until GS 110.  Not sure how you got a GS that high by day 4

 

Again, from the xml

 

<!-- QL4 starts at 50, QL5 at 80, QL6 at 110 -->

 

You can also check out

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QdvwJZQG8RxbQi-G0fQPx5Kr3pEddBcJK2kYy86OpPk/edit#gid=603484266

 

either we understand it wrong  or  it doesnt work as supposed

 

iam at day  30+  in  a19  with gs somewhere between 60 and 80  yet i seen tons of  q6 not to mention q5

since i  throw away atleast  3  q6  wrenches   because they were worse than my q6 wrench ...  then iam quite sure everyone have same experience  not to mention numberless q6 padded armor  that just piss you by costing  150dukes:D despite being q6

if it worked as xml say  then  we wouldnt see any  non primitive Q5/6  in first few weeks

 

on other side  padded armor/wrench/wood club/pistol  are all lowest tier soo maybe they all count as primitive?

why i had  two q6 baseball bat by second horde .. sadly cant remember source of those maybe  some loot have modified GS after all ?   airdrop ? zombie loot?

 

- wrenches drop  from sinks from day 1

actually there isnt much to tell about this shady stuff ... but go play  30  days (definitely not 110 gamestage) and then tell me ho wmany " non primitive tool" Q6  you have ;)  .. people even make complaints about q6 being  too common in a19 and nope  not all of those are stone shovels or blunderbusses

 

ic ould agree on higher stuff tho .... there definitely seems to be  hard limit to high tier stuff above Q3

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38 minutes ago, alanea said:

either we understand it wrong  or  it doesnt work as supposed

 

iam at day  30+  in  a19  with gs somewhere between 60 and 80  yet i seen tons of  q6 not to mention q5

since i  throw away atleast  3  q6  wrenches   because they were worse than my q6 wrench ...  then iam quite sure everyone have same experience  not to mention numberless q6 padded armor  that just piss you by costing  150dukes:D despite being q6

if it worked as xml say  then  we wouldnt see any  non primitive Q5/6  in first few weeks

While I may not completely understand the XML (though I think I do), that spreadsheet really doesn't leave any room for doubt.   I'm not sure why you are getting so many high level items, but I'm on day 35 with a GS of 110 and I've found about 7-10 Q6 items in total, so I certainly have no had the same experience as you have.

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26 minutes ago, Kalen said:

While I may not completely understand the XML (though I think I do), that spreadsheet really doesn't leave any room for doubt.   I'm not sure why you are getting so many high level items, but I'm on day 35 with a GS of 110 and I've found about 7-10 Q6 items in total, so I certainly have no had the same experience as you have.

well playstyles differ alot  but i bet you didnt looted  all  7-10  last night ;) ... i disagree with people complaining about overflow as well ... it  may be  15-20  for me  but its far from "every poi" as some call it

 

sure  it seems  clear how xml works  but reality is clearly different  as people definitely droping q5/q6 before stated gamestage

 

but dont  believe me   check  our beloved youtubers

https://youtu.be/FVdW6Q-E-H0?t=2800 

highest gamestage is  79

<!-- QL4 starts at 50, QL5 at 80, QL6 at 110 -->

gameedged have two q5 non primitive on toolbelt :)

 

https://youtu.be/FVdW6Q-E-H0?t=1939

here you can see his Q6 shovel (missed how he got it ... but traders /quests  dont give q6 )

 

so yeah 

A) loot is bugged in some way/affected by something else

B) we are all halucinating  some early Q6 items :D

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46 minutes ago, alanea said:

well playstyles differ alot  but i bet you didnt loored  all  7-10  last night ;) ... i disagree with people complaining about overflow as well ... it  may be  15-20  for me  but ots far from "every poi" as some call it

My apologies, I was very wrong.... I have 20-30 Q6 items (just went through my storage to check).  Most of them are primitive items which is probably why I wasn't thinking of them.  Of the 6 Q6 stuff I use (auger, military chest and leg, steel axe, wooden bow, impact driver) 4 of them were a reward for a trader quest (the armor, auger and I just got the impact driver 10 minutes ago).   The axe I looted recently and the bow I've had for a while.

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I am on day 7 and have gotten 2 q6 scrap armor pieces, and several q6 cloth armor pieces, as well as q6 stone tools. I can confirm that q6 drops items drop from loot early, since I looted all of those. None were quest rewards. They may not be great, but they are looted q6 in the first week.

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1 hour ago, katarynna said:

I am on day 7 and have gotten 2 t6 scrap armor pieces, and several t6 cloth armor pieces, as well as q6 stone tools. I can confirm that t6 drops items drop from loot early, since I looted all of those. None were quest rewards. They may not be great, but they are looted t6 in the first week.

Weird.... what is your GS?

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