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watzlp

So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

Should Primitive tools and weapons lootable in the first place?  

246 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Primitive Stone tools and weapons be found in Sealed Pre-Apocalypse Sealed Boxes?

    • Yes.
      40
    • No.
      141
    • Yea, Even though its emersion breaking, for "Game Balance" you should find survivor made tools and weapons in boxes from probably over a hundred years ago.
      24
    • No, I cant craft lv6 quality loot as a survivor, why would people from before all this happen be selling things youd only make after the apocalypse happend?
      28
    • I didnt read anything you wrote and just came here to say "Get Gud Scrub" Thus adding nothing to the conversation.
      13


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Posted (edited)

TL-DR: I already expect over half you people to go "Get Gud Scrub" But seeing as Ive been playing this game for THOUSANDS of Hours, you can go F$%k Right off. Ive enjoyed this game since EARLY Alphas and Ive never honestly felt this terrible about the game. Even the alpha 17 update didnt make me feel this terrible about playing a game Ive LOVED.

 

Early Game Play of Alpha 19:

 

Spawns in, does the usual opening missions, scavenges for 20 minutes finding now rare birds feathers to make a buncha arrows. Preps self up to go to war with early zombies with a bow and arrows. Heads out to a near by town. Fights off a few dogs, a couple FERALS on day 1 and even a Cop zombie. Finds a Shot gun Messiah. Breaks in quietly and proceeds to attempt to snipe sleeping zombies with a bow. After the first one took 3 arrows to the head before dying, stops and puts a point into stealth damage. Kills the last few zombies with 2 arrows each to the skull totaling in about 7 zombies, 2 of which were ferals. Now that the building is cleared out.. Starts to hack into the couple pre-Apocalypse crates that are there... only to find a primitive bow.. stone spear.. and blunderbuss.. in.. Both.. uhm.. what? This game takes place in America, land of guns in a cereal box.. why are these pre-apocalypse still sealed boxes containing... Post apocalypse beginner weaponry? Ok so then... looting the gun store is worthless.. Lets go get us some tools..

 

After a bit of searching, killing a couple hordes and patching myself up, I find a working stiffs. Same thing as the first store. Go in quietly, stealth all 12 zombies in this place, have one or two wake up since they are ferals that can smell the fart I let out when I saw glowing eyes. Heads over to the crates Pre-Apocalypse still sealed crates and cracks them open... only to find 3 stone-axes and two stone-shovels in every single box... So... before the apocalypse happened.. this store ordered tools cheaper than you get made in china? Was Carl in the back of the store just making these by hand cause if he was, these things suck as they are all level 2... Damn Carl youve worked at this store long enough, havnt you figured out how to make a god damned stone tool? Ok so.. Looks like looting is out the window for tools and weaponry.. but I just noticed.. its been maybe 5-7 hours in game and.. well Im STARVING apparently.. at like 70 hunger and thirst.. @%$*#! guess I need to find me a food source.

 

2 small wandering hordes and a dog bite later.. Finds Shamway, repeats process from other two stores, opens crates.... Well I mean Shamway has always sucked.. No one cares.

 

Ok, so looting ANYTHING in early game sucks now.. Meaning that theres no point in doing ANY Pois, no point in going into cities, no point in going into factories, the early in game seems to now be locked to.. kill zombies or do trader missions... what happen to the go anywhere, build kill and loot anything to survive? What happen to that joy you felt when you got lucky and cracked open that one crate in 20 that had your lv1 steel pickaxe on day 3~4 where you knew you couldnt do anything to make it better, but you no longer had to suffer breaking rocks with a stone tool? I'd rather have low level garbage loot than this primitive tool set. Why are primitive tools even a lootable object? Especially from before everything went to @%$*#!?

 

 

Edited by watzlp
Obvious Spelling Error (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

They wanted to extend the game's stone age, which is a good thing in my opinion.

But of course, TFP being TFP, they once again chose a terrible way to do that :D (last one was perk level gates).  

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, RestInPieces said:

They wanted to extend the game's stone age, which is a good thing in my opinion.

But of course, TFP being TFP, they once again chose a terrible way to do that (last one was perk level gates).  

I agree that the beginning game shouldnt be a cake walk, but by removing the entire point of looting from the game seems to be the WORST way of doing things.. Outside of A crackabook... NO poi is worth it anymore.. Which means in a game about crafting, looting and building, theyve effectively removed one of the major elements of their game atleast early game. I even looked into the XML files just to try getting a better idea of what was going on and its a absolute mess.

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They have lengthened the beginning game, which is good, but I am afraid it is more to mask the lack of an endgame. We need bandits more than we need pretty graphics and car mods.

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Learn to edit a text file and change the XML settings to what you want. I did not like how they removed Auger and Chainsaw from perks so I went in and changed it back. That is the best thing about this game is you can control 99% of values.

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Another "realism" thread complaining they arent fully kitted out on day 1.. Move along everyone.

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well honestly, the current loot system keeps the game from either being WAY too easy at the start, or so brutal I give up based on bad RNG luck. The new loot/game stage/tech progression feels like it is constantly testing me without being to difficult. To me having the good gear just out of reach keeps me looting. When I get it early game I don't want to explore nearly as much.

To put things in perspective, I have at least 50 hours on every major build since A6 so I have a pretty good idea of how the game has progressed. I am not sure about you, but I am playing 100% vanilla settings currently. I do that every build for the first couple games so I get a feel for what the devs intended. If you aren't playing vanilla before assessing the games balance, I am not sure I'd trust your opinion until you have.

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I will agree that it has become a an issue at both ends of the game-play experience.  Early on, it just doubles-down on the push to grind, particularly with the (justifiably) changed spawning mechanics.  Later on, I see little reason to hit high-tier structures since the loot isn't noticeably different than what I get elsewhere -- and it seems I get lvl 6 gear WAY too easily in this alpha.

 

Hopefully A20 brings some serious revamping to loot mechanics, because while the game on the whole is at a great place from my perspective, the progression and risk-reward balance is at a relative low point.  I know a mod or dev (apologies but cannot recall who in particular) mentioned the current system makes it difficult or impossible to tie loot to higher-end structures, biomes, etc. but mentioned that doing so may be possible in later alphas -- which I hope they seriously look into doing. 

There are plenty of clever ways to stop or at least stem "nerdpoling" (wider distribution of loot, novel hazards, other obstacles or requirements, etc.) so I don't see it as nearly as much as a barrier as some others do.

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Posted (edited)

The question wasnt about the LOOT system in particular, it was Should Primitive Tools Exist in the Loot Pool.

 

The loot table already makes it to where when youre higher level you dont have to deal with finding lv1 garbage, Im asking SPECIFICALLY, about Primitive tools.

 

2 hours ago, Telric said:

Another "realism" thread complaining they arent fully kitted out on day 1.. Move along everyone.

Also thank you for not reading the question or information proving yourself to be completely useless to this conversation.

  

2 hours ago, gwhit said:

Learn to edit a text file and change the XML settings to what you want. I did not like how they removed Auger and Chainsaw from perks so I went in and changed it back. That is the best thing about this game is you can control 99% of values.


AS stated in my response to the first poster, IVe already looked at the XML for loot and its a mess, its hard to really understand what parts are connected and the full probability tables with their values. Its FAR more organized than alpha 18, but its still a hell of a mess

 

Edited by watzlp
Addition (see edit history)
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Alright, i'll add to this conversation... even though you dont seem to be looking for an actual conversation seeing how defensive your first post was... but here.

The only reason you dont want to find primitive tools in loot is they arent the best.. So if you never found primitive tools, two houses you'd have the good stuff. After those two houses, whats your next goal in the game? You're fully kitted and will have no trouble surviving. This then would make primitive tools useless, so you'd just want them removed from the game. At that point, t2 becomes the new primitive, so you'd make a new forum post about how you shouldnt find t2 in sealed loot crates. You'd make some other "realism" statement about how all the t2 guns and weapons should have already been looted by others that were alive. Then the cycle will start again. There is no end to it.

Primitive tools are there to be a time gating mechanic. Would you really rather those sealed chests to be empty? Then where is the realism in that? People are shipping empty sealed chests all over the world? No.. Primitive tools are to keep you from being over geared in the first weeks. There is nothing wrong with loot having it, specially as you said, being higher levels you'll stop getting it, thus defeating the point of this entire thread...

So in the end.. either enjoy the stones you get from scrapping the tools, or be ready for all sealed shipping containers to be empty instead of carrying those pesky primitive tools.

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For me, looting in early game is still fair enough.

Blunderbuss can one shot all normal zeds in Nomad difficulty. That's an good enough improvement. Then more loot means more ammo.

A quality 1 stone shovel with 0 points in Miner 69'er takes me 6 hits to destroy a surface block of clay soil. But a quality 2 one with a grave digger mod or a quality 3 one with 2 whatever mods only take me 5 hits to do it. These fair enough improvements mean fair enough productive. And looting in early game still gives mods that is necessary in all gamestage, then why I have to feel boring in going for loot in early game.

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Maybe it's just me but I'm loving A19. I'm from the console crowd so EVERYTHING is an improvement to me.

I'm stoked to find a level 3 stone axe to replace my level 1 stone axe, no matter where I find it. Sealed loot boxes, under a sink, or in a pile of fu*king trash. 

It's a loot system & they gotta balance it some how, even if it means sacrificing "realism".

 

All the cool sh*t I've found in the game came from looting. AK's, blunderbuss, pistols, hunting rifles, iron spears, etc. 

I've seen nothing wrong with the loot system.

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Posted (edited)

Would it be more realistic if they replaced all of the sealed crates with survivor bags/chests so your immersion is maintained?

 

Joking aside...I had the same reaction the 1st time I experienced it.   However, I feel its a good gameplay move as stone age wpns/tools were vastly under utilized.

 

On the positive side the progression feels good and usually there is something useful found.  On the negative side that immersion is broken a bit.  At the end of the day it just takes some getting use too.

 

I suppose someone can create a mod to change the crates to more immersive types..(e.g. replace model and localization for the crates) and voila problem solved....😂

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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My thoughts:

+ Agreed that stone-age gear shouldn't be in sealed crates (even if the stones are purple).

+ Crate-heavy PoI's (like factories) should spawn end-game zed, regardless of game stage. If you want the goods early, you fight the end-game early (if crate loot was reverted).

+ Loot Caches that appear at the end of PoIs shouldn't spawn unless a quest is active in that respective PoI (prevent tower grabs. Again, if crate loot was reverted).

29 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Would it be more realistic if they replaced all of the sealed crates with survivor bags/chests so your immersion is maintained?

This is a potentially good idea.

Factories and end-game PoIs aside, perhaps having other PoI's have shoddily-sealed crates (therefore hinting at tampering with items inside) in'em instead of pristine company crates could replace a number of crates. That way, it does make sense for certain crates you find to have a pile of crap in'em, what-with the crate being terribly resealed by some survivor you never met.

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps they should use a system of looting where you only loot materials or old busted items that need to be scrapped in order for you to create a usable version. For example, you open a working stiffs crate and you find inside a low quality iron pickaxe, which when scrapped gives you a small amount of materials for you to eventually craft your own. The quality that you craft should be dependent on your skill as a craftsman. The chance to find a working tool or weapon should be based on the difficulty of the POI you're at, but generally this should be somewhat rare, so maybe only a few POIs would have this. This feels most logical for me when you try and think of a narrative for this game. You're a survivor with no experience in a zombie apocalypse, you need to slowly gain experience in all aspects of surviving, crafting, etc in order to become a more efficient survivor. A lot of it should be dependent on you as the character and not an artificial loot limiting mechanic via gamestages which are technically dependent on your skills as a survivor, but it's still a very artificial approach. 

 

To summarize, I haven't thought this fully through, but maybe being able to loot only materials/parts/items that will be scrapped for parts due to them being rusted from laying in a box for too long could be an option. Also as mentioned above maybe different quality crates should exist, so low tier working stiffs, mid, high, exceptional, etc. I don't immediatelly see any negatives to a system like this. 

 

I think this game should have a mixture of arcade and realism. I enjoy it being somewhat lighthearted and not full fledged realism like dead matter for example. 

 

 

Edited by dowz0r (see edit history)
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47 minutes ago, MetalMartyr said:

..........+ Crate-heavy PoI's (like factories) should spawn end-game zed, regardless of game stage. If you want the goods early, you fight the end-game early (if crate loot was reverted).............

I agree with this but how would one know this is a "end game" POI? Maybe through trader quests? Good idea though. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Outlaw_187 said:

I agree with this but how would one know this is a "end game" POI? Maybe through trader quests? Good idea though. 

 

That's a good question.

For any of us who've been around for a while, it's obvious that end-game PoI's are factories, or other gigantic settings ('specially since quest-related events don't touch on Factories 'till Tier 4/5).

As for newbies, the easy ways are:

1. Hope the intimidating size of the PoI scares'em off.

2. Survival Tip! Have one pop up when they enter the PoI's parking lot or front gates. [Ex: Survival Tip - Turn back. NOW.]

And then you add a description for the survivors that actually read the tips in the menu. [Ex: Turn Back. NOW. - This area is a high-risk environment, containing incredibly powerful undead. It is recommended that you mark this place on your map, and only return when you are properly equipped]

 

Those are the easy ways. There's over-the-top ways to do it, but I figure that won't be necessary. After all, the last way is the most sure-fire way to learn: Experience :D

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@watzlp Sorry you don't like the direction of this. This happens every update to different folks. Too bad your turn came around this time. 

 

The trader nerf is coming so pretty soon rewards and store inventory will be similar.

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3 hours ago, dowz0r said:

Perhaps they should use a system of looting where you only loot materials or old busted items that need to be scrapped in order for you to create a usable version.

I see this as a step in the direction of making the crafting part of the game viable and making skill selection more meaningful instead of selecting a skill for the 10% more damage.

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

The trader nerf is coming so pretty soon rewards and store inventory will be similar.

Can not come soon enough for me!

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4 hours ago, Roland said:

@watzlp Sorry you don't like the direction of this. This happens every update to different folks. Too bad your turn came around this time. 

 

The trader nerf is coming so pretty soon rewards and store inventory will be similar.

So looting and trader visits will be equally fruitless? At least they are being consistent. 

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 It would require too much to change, and TFP is now more streamlining towards adding the last content. You will likely not see any large scale changes to any core system anymore. Except those specifically mentioned in the dev streams, like water mechanics etc. 

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Posted (edited)

Imho the stone age should be completely removed. Iron age should be new stone age. Why do you need 4 tiers? Is 3 not enough? Its just silly, because most of the stone weapons is useless. CLub? no. Knuckle wraps? You mean those little love tapps - nah Ill pass. Bow and arrows? 4 headshots to kill a zombie....just no. Ill pick sledgehammer over everything, because its most effective. Tools - you have essentially only shovel and stone axe, which at the time you start getting iron tools you have on tier 6 which is on the same lvl as T1 iron tools. And of course, desire to loot at the beginning is really low before you increase your gamestage.

 

In regards to endgame PoIS having good loot and dangerous enemies from start....nerdpolling and other exploits are the issue. But I believe that can be rectified and worked around

12 hours ago, Telric said:

Alright, i'll add to this conversation... even though you dont seem to be looking for an actual conversation seeing how defensive your first post was... but here.

The only reason you dont want to find primitive tools in loot is they arent the best.. So if you never found primitive tools, two houses you'd have the good stuff. After those two houses, whats your next goal in the game? You're fully kitted and will have no trouble surviving. This then would make primitive tools useless, so you'd just want them removed from the game. At that point, t2 becomes the new primitive, so you'd make a new forum post about how you shouldnt find t2 in sealed loot crates. You'd make some other "realism" statement about how all the t2 guns and weapons should have already been looted by others that were alive. Then the cycle will start again. There is no end to it.

Primitive tools are there to be a time gating mechanic. Would you really rather those sealed chests to be empty? Then where is the realism in that? People are shipping empty sealed chests all over the world? No.. Primitive tools are to keep you from being over geared in the first weeks. There is nothing wrong with loot having it, specially as you said, being higher levels you'll stop getting it, thus defeating the point of this entire thread...

So in the end.. either enjoy the stones you get from scrapping the tools, or be ready for all sealed shipping containers to be empty instead of carrying those pesky primitive tools.

The thing is, that iron tools and firearms have some value - you can scrap/smelt them, get parts from them or sell them. With stone age items you can do it only with scrap armor and blunderbuss. Loot has mostly no value compared to iron age.

Edited by Onarr (see edit history)
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30 minutes ago, Onarr said:

In regards to endgame PoIS having good loot and dangerous enemies from start....nerdpolling and other exploits are the issue. But I believe that can be rectified and worked around

 

If you don't like nerdpoling to the top of POI's to snag the main loot, then don't do it. How does anyone else exploiting this mechanic affect you? Besides, if you really wanted to, you could turn on DM mode, turn on Fly Mode, and achieve the same thing. Sure, I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but at the end of the day, they are more similar than different.

 

Plus there are plenty of POI's where the main loot is at ground level or underground.

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Immersion is a strange double edged sword.  But, one thing I'd like to point out is the TFP have also stated that this game has arcade elements.  I like that the tech levels are spaced and pacing is meant to become more relevant.  I feel this is a good thing.  Yes, opening up a crate of fresh meat in the desert sun is immersion breaking, but the game as a whole is still pretty enjoyable.  There are compromises to consider.

 

 

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