So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Roland]

Hopefully they will balance looting so parts for crafting can be found at some acceptable gamestage lower than you would find the whole item itself. I would like it if more parts showed up in loot earlier. Maybe not the first couple days but definitely well before we are finding quality 5 & 6 primitive gear. 

[meganoth]

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

Hopefully they will balance looting so parts for crafting can be found at some acceptable gamestage lower than you would find the whole item itself. I would like it if more parts showed up in loot earlier. Maybe not the first couple days but definitely well before we are finding quality 5 & 6 primitive gear. 

Exactly. I already suggested they make weapon crafting need more weapon parts so they can easily give out more parts. If you need 6 AK parts to make your first AK it doesn't matter anymore that all weapon boxes ON DAY 1 contain a random weapon piece, you still would need to loot about 6*~8=48 POIs on average before you could build your first AK.

 

 

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

In addition, the idea of making the final treasure box impenetrable and requiring a 🔑 from somewhere else in the POI seems to be gaining some traction in team discussions.  It seems to be the least disruptive way to prevent the quick smash and grab nerdpole to the loot room without having to edit all the existing POIs. We’ll have to see if something like that happens. 

Also could add some relevance to the lockpicking skill.

[Solomon]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Exactly. It’s nothing like how mmorpgs work. Locations of variable difficulty that anyone can explore no matter their level is much different than selectable maps of variable difficulty that are often locked until you reach the qualifying level.  You would expect areas of greater infestation in a post apocalyptic world. Once they implement this the Shotgun Messiah crates you get from the store will have better stuff than the Shotgun Messiah crates you found in the closet of a house. You can choose to loot the house or the store. The only problem will be that the game won’t protect the player by locking them out of the store until they are level such and such. So we will get rants posted by people who thought they could explore the Shotgun Messiah store naked on day one using their stone axe as a weapon because “if the game let me go in it should be possible to beat”....

Im sorry but there are several mmorpgs and even roguelike rpgs what lets you do that. Like the Witcher 3 doesnt tell you that you shouldnt be in a certain area you only see that when the enemy has marks showing its much out of your league and you can still try your way there to get the stuff you want.

The incoming area based difficulty level further pushes us into rpg style gaming.

 

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 I have no beef with you hating the current state of the game. I get why you do and you have the right to complain about it. I’m not arguing for the current progression remaining as the final version nor am I defending it as a good implementation. 
 

My goal is for people to understand that we are only midway through an overall change that will be an improvement for solid reasons I’ve already outlined. I also want to debunk inaccurate speculations about the plans that are nothing like the actual plans that have been shared. 

Dont worry, i know that very much but i already had my time where i just sat in near silence, advocating that the devs know what they do and we are in the middle of change then it happened....the game just died.

Firefall, if you wanna check on it. A once great game destroyed by developer incompetence.

 

Now before someone twists my words i dont think this game is dying or anything like that, i just want to voice my opinion as much as possible so it gets heard.

Things can get much better or much worse but it all boils down to whenever we voice our concerns or ignore them.

 

3 hours ago, alanea said:

except difficulty means nothing thea re not really easy ad hard dungeons  even factories of waterworks will be full of  slow zombies on  low gamestage  and even if it was filled by ferals from day  1 theres no way to stop you from shooting zombies for places  they cant reach .. or straight  skiping them in game where you can destroy / place block everywhere

so again no matter what  "poi based loot"   always  lead to  max gear  on early days -... whats point of stone   iron   low quality  or even most guns  if you could loot  t5-6  auto shotgun on day  1

As i said in a different thread, the problem boils down to not having enough weapons and other items to fill up the lootboxes.

 

Variety is the key, if they keep this tiering but seriously expand the avaible gear that means players can no longer predict what comes and from where because theres just soo much stuff to get.

 

Currently i know exactly what weapons will i find in a gun safe, its always 1-2 blunderbuss and ammo. No variance at all but if we triple our current weapon list that means i could no longer guess what i get so exploration once again becomes meaningful.

3 hours ago, alanea said:

loot crawl poi  is a problem ..  they need to give up on idea of loot rooms and spread loot over poi instead

This one i agree with!

 

If the loot is placed randomly around the place and i no longer can pinpoint where the goods are that means i spend much more time actually playing the game instead of just "impossible tower to reach the treasure".

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Im sorry but there are several mmorpgs and even roguelike rpgs what lets you do that. Like the Witcher 3 doesnt tell you that you shouldnt be in a certain area you only see that when the enemy has marks showing its much out of your league and you can still try your way there to get the stuff you want.

The incoming area based difficulty level further pushes us into rpg style gaming.

Of course there are other RPGs that don’t force the player to use certain gear or control where they can go. But in your post that sparked my response you weren’t talking about those. You specifically cited characteristics of those RPGs that do and claimed that is where 7 Days to Die is headed. 
 

Now it sounds like you just don’t like any elements of any RPGs to be part of this game. The problem with that is that RPG is definitely one of the genres the devs want in this hybrid. 
 

As for area based difficulty, I don’t think that is necessarily an RPG exclusive element. It’s just as much Adventure  or even Metroidvania if you ask me and we already know it fits this game like a glove because we used to have it in the form of the hub city. The problem with the hub city was that it still had the same exact loot as everywhere else. But it was a much loved feature and one of the most requested to return. People want challenging areas they have to work up to before tackling— or that they can risk getting into earlier than what might be prudent. The loot just has to reflect the risk and in the new system it will be. 
 

[Solomon]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

Of course there are other RPGs that don’t force the player to use certain gear or control where they can go. But in your post that sparked my response you weren’t talking about those. You specifically cited characteristics of those RPGs that do and claimed that is where 7 Days to Die is headed. 
 

Now it sounds like you just don’t like any elements of any RPGs to be part of this game. The problem with that is that RPG is definitely one of the genres the devs want in this hybrid. 
 

As for area based difficulty, I don’t think that is necessarily an RPG exclusive element. It’s just as much Adventure  or even Metroidvania if you ask me and we already know it fits this game like a glove because we used to have it in the form of the hub city. The problem with the hub city was that it still had the same exact loot as everywhere else. But it was a much loved feature and one of the most requested to return. People want challenging areas they have to work up to before tackling— or that they can risk getting into earlier than what might be prudent. The loot just has to reflect the risk and in the new system it will be. 
 

To be fair the only reason i dont like the rpgish elements in the loot is because we are missing one of the most important rpgish element and soo far i heard absolutely no plan to introduce atleast 50 different (melee, ranged and guns) weapons to the game so the loot starts to by actually varying.

 

I dont have problems with the perk system thought i would like it much more if we would have another tab called Combat where you can actually decide what weapons you want to play with instead of shoehorning.

 

I dont like the dungeon style pois because its too abuseable and for a sandbox game it would be much better to semi-randomise the loot like "theres 6 safes in this house and any of them could hold the book i need".

 

I wouldnt mind legendary gear, fast travel or the addition of player "skills" too as long as they fit the atmosphere.

[alanea]

4 hours ago, Solomon said:

To be fair the only reason i dont like the rpgish elements in the loot is because we are missing one of the most important rpgish element and soo far i heard absolutely no plan to introduce atleast 50 different (melee, ranged and guns) weapons to the game so the loot starts to by actually varying.

lol we already have too many weapons ...  enought  to make some of them feel  almsot same  or useless and skipped by everyone

6 hours ago, Solomon said:

As i said in a different thread, the problem boils down to not having enough weapons and other items to fill up the lootboxes.

 

Variety is the key, if they keep this tiering but seriously expand the avaible gear that means players can no longer predict what comes and from where because theres just soo much stuff to get.

 

Currently i know exactly what weapons will i find in a gun safe, its always 1-2 blunderbuss and ammo. No variance at all but if we triple our current weapon list that means i could no longer guess what i get so exploration once again becomes meaningful.

This one i agree with!

 

If the loot is placed randomly around the place and i no longer can pinpoint where the goods are that means i spend much more time actually playing the game instead of just "impossible tower to reach the treasure".

actually there quite randomness in loot ... you have  for example  2 mods in loot  but chosen from  30+   randomly   your 1-2 blunderbuss is   in every weapon based crate /safe probably because they wanted guarantee that everyone get this firearm easily but theres definitely variation i found pistols  AKs  wooden bows  hunting rifle and magnum  during first week in gunsafes   sniper rifle marksman rifle and desert vulture during second week

 

but yeah most RPGs  dont lock loot behind level ... but ensure  item progression by hard locking items by level requirement

so sure we can have iron tools from  20 steel from  60 

and considering they  make clear they want character progression to go  over 100 levels lock  ak at level  40   assault rifle  70    m60   90   will you be happy with such change ?  after that  there wont be any problem with people looting  desired tier 6 m60 at day 1 toilet

btw " legendary items" ?   you mean rather rare tier 6  with randomed stats ?    your favorite weapon  on tier 6 with maxed damage roll is basically legendary item  ... and you will be likely bored before you drop it ... and if not .. theres full set of gear:)

[Solomon]

7 hours ago, alanea said:

lol we already have too many weapons ...  enought  to make some of them feel  almsot same  or useless and skipped by everyone

And yet we had to get this tiering system so players can just get all their weapons in the first week.

 

Lets see for melee we have:

 

* Clubs 4 tier +Baseball bat

* Sledgehammers 3 tier

* Knuckles 3 tiers

* Knifes 3 tiers (i might be wrong on the tiers here) + machete

* Stun Baton

* Spears 3 tiers

* Axes (these are tools) 3 tiers

 

Thats all, realistically this is 9 different melee weapons, for ranged we have:

 

* Pistol

* Revolver

* Shotguns 4 tiers

* Bows 3 tiers

* Crossbows 3 tiers

* Machine guns 2 tiers

* Rocket Launcher

* Rifles

 

Now this is realistically 12 ranged weapons, so in total we are sitting on 21 weapons. In a normal playthrought you will find all stone age gear in like 5 loot boxes what means that theres just not enough items in the rotation to justify any limitations.

 

Now the problem as you said is that plenty weapons feel identical is because they are practically just tiered versions and our combat is kind of "lame". Dont get me wrong i like whacking zombies but the only difference between whacking with a club VS sledgehammer is the attack speed. The feeling is missing.

 

The melee can easily by expanded with the following:

 

1. Boomerangs: basic hitting animations and a throw plus return mechanic, emphasis on stun effect
2. Chakrams: slashing animations with a throw plus return mechanic, emphasis on bleeding effects
3. Whips: Long range attacks and big sweeping style power attacks. 
4. Swords of all kind: Sweeping slashing attacks and stabbing attacks
5. Hatchets: Axes but throwable
6. Maces: The middle ages solution to some guy wearing armor, emphasis on stun effects
7. War Crime weapons: The stuff the Geneva Convention forbids like the knife what creates a permanent bleeding wound
8. Metal Baton: Its not electric but hits hard creating slowing effects
9. Gunswords: We are already pushing it with the blunderbuss so might aswell have one of these one-shot crazy creations

The idea is that by expanding the avaible choices of the player you can still limit their progress but in a less apparent way. The current looting system seems to be created for the sole reason to slow down early gameplay so players realize later that theres no endgame but at the same time it manages to make players realize just how little stuff we have.

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

btw " legendary items" ?   you mean rather rare tier 6  with randomed stats ?    your favorite weapon  on tier 6 with maxed damage roll is basically legendary item  ... and you will be likely bored before you drop it ... and if not .. theres full set of gear:)

I heard somewhere here that its in the plans to release a "legendary" tier weapons something like T7 equipment unique and hard to find only in the designated pois.

Edit: @Xtrakicking confirmed its from madmole.

[Xtrakicking]

16 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I heard somewhere here that its in the plans to release a "legendary" tier weapons something like T7 equipment unique and hard to find only in the designated pois.

Im not sure where i heard it maybe it was from @meganoth, i cant remember exactly so if i mixing stuff up sorry.

Madmole has talked about legendery items many times in the dev diary. You probably heard it there.

[alanea]

52 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Madmole has talked about legendery items many times in the dev diary. You probably heard it there.

 

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

* Clubs 4 tier +Baseball bat   3+bat

 

* Sledgehammers 3 tier

* Knuckles 3 tiers

* Knifes 3 tiers (i might be wrong on the tiers here) + machete  2+machete

* Stun Baton

* Spears 3 tiers

* Axes (these are tools) 3 tiers

 

* Pistol  pistol  + smg is considered same line  lacking  1 tier (9mm ammo)

* Revolver    magnum+desert vulture

* Shotguns 4 tiers

* Bows 3 tiers

* Crossbows 3 tiers   just two

* Machine guns 2 tiers  3 tiers  ak , assault rifle ,m60

* Rocket Launcher

* Rifles  3tiers hunting rifle marksman rifle  sniper rifle

 all i say is cross out wrong ones and pointfact you have complete chaos  in weapons + tiers probably meaning you probably didnt seen some of them too much

Quote

Now this is realistically 12 ranged weapons, so in total we are sitting on 21 weapons. In a normal playthrought you will find all stone age gear in like 5 loot boxes what means that theres just not enough items in the rotation to justify any limitations.

yeah yeah  day  24  i still didnt see  1/2  "  stone age stuff"

Quote

Now the problem as you said is that plenty weapons feel identical is because they are practically just tiered versions and our combat is kind of "lame". Dont get me wrong i like whacking zombies but the only difference between whacking with a club VS sledgehammer is the attack speed. The feeling is missing.

 

The melee can easily by expanded with the following:

 

1. Boomerangs: basic hitting animations and a throw plus return mechanic, emphasis on stun effect
2. Chakrams: slashing animations with a throw plus return mechanic, emphasis on bleeding effects
3. Whips: Long range attacks and big sweeping style power attacks. 
4. Swords of all kind: Sweeping slashing attacks and stabbing attacks
5. Hatchets: Axes but throwable
6. Maces: The middle ages solution to some guy wearing armor, emphasis on stun effects
7. War Crime weapons: The stuff the Geneva Convention forbids like the knife what creates a permanent bleeding wound
8. Metal Baton: Its not electric but hits hard creating slowing effects
9. Gunswords: We are already pushing it with the blunderbuss so might aswell have one of these one-shot crazy creations

boomerang chakram hatchet =  yeah lets take uniqueness of spear tby making bunch  of throwing weapons  with very minor differences ( boomerang especially as spear have emphasis on stun already

metal baton =  100%  same as club  as clubs are focusing on stuning  / knocking down

whip = we already have spear uniquer by large range but weak damage .. sweeping attack is just boring minor change

mace :  soo metal club with stun effect ?  100% same as what we have

sword :  yeah different animation  /attack degree  will make it sooooo unique  just kiding .. reskinned sledge that already have sweep heavy attack  leading just to ridiculousexperience seeying  guy witk AK  on back running around with sword lol

rapier would fit more ... but still ... 0 uniquenessas both axe / sledge  have quite wide aoe attacks

War Crime weapons :  when people complain knives  that both knives and machette  are bland boring and outclassed weapons because zombies die before bleed matter .. yet someone comes with idea to bring longer ( and presumably weaker  to balance it)  bleed

gunsword : the only  "unique"  idea ...  bit bizarre  clumsy to use (sacrificing power attack button to shot?) probably with insanely bad stats for both  sword and the gun itself (gun miniaturized + lacking barell/sword alot heavier than machette/sword because the gun)

 

not to mention all the mods that give you those featureson any weapon you want want more stun  ? sure ... bleed on club ?  no problem ... more stun on shovel ? fine  burning fireaxe ? ..... we basically have enought melee weapons  to feel them too  similar to each other .... making base item even more cosmetic by all the universal mods

a18 example

new spear = unique by range weak dmg and throw  .. throw  with stun effect is only thing that makes it relevant due to unique gameplay

stun baton =  club that  sometimes  root  zombies .. pointless compared to classic club that knockdown them (more often) and with more damage

 

everything doubled by the fact melee weapons become obsolete midgame (significantly weaker than guns used just to save ammo on slow zombies (even fireaxe one shot those) especially now with " critical injuries"  when zombie hit you for  1 dmg and you lose 25-50 from injury instantly leading to people playing safe = ideallyf rom range  more than ever

Quote

The idea is that by expanding the avaible choices of the player you can still limit their progress but in a less apparent way. The current looting system seems to be created for the sole reason to slow down early gameplay so players realize later that theres no endgame but at the same time it manages to make players realize just how little stuff we have.

 

I heard somewhere here that its in the plans to release a "legendary" tier weapons something like T7 equipment unique and hard to find only in the designated pois.

Im not sure where i heard it maybe it was from @meganoth, i cant remember exactly so if i mixing stuff up sorry.

well endgame exist ... its actually too long as chasing perfect roll t6  is  slow enought to bore you ( god i reached day  150+  in a18  withou seeing  t6 military leg armor thats better than my t5 )

 

they   slowed looot like this  because people  had high  tier weapons /steel tools during first week often most tools  iron  /steel  during first day making stone tools  completely pointless and progression close to none  thats why they first locked crafting them behind high tier perks... just to realize they can be easily looted  and slow down loot  in next alpha

 

a17 locked steel weapons  to level  80+

a18 removed lock on level because people cried  but removedthose tools early from traders and  force us to get parts for them

a19 delayed steel tools in loot  = they appear more and more commonly after week

 

t7  doubt ... they may or they may not   but they made many steps to make  t6  legendary tier ( its not sold at traders, it cant be crafted, its single tier with  most mod slots= t1=1 t2-3=2  t4-5=3  t6=4) so you basically have to loot it  from high tier chests and its forced to be unique

[Solomon]

2 hours ago, alanea said:

all i say is cross out wrong ones and pointfact you have complete chaos  in weapons + tiers probably meaning you probably didnt seen some of them too much

I mostly just pick my favorites, i swear i remembered more of those weapons.

 

2 hours ago, alanea said:

yeah yeah  day  24  i still didnt see  1/2  "  stone age stuff"

Lets see on my server with default settings with my brother we already have got bone knives, blunderbusses, stone spears, wooden clubs, stone sledgehammers. primitive bows plus the leather knuckle. I think thats pretty much all stone age stuff and we are at day 4. Tools are not counted in but we have the stone axe and stone showel.

 

Now from this both of us use the blunderbuss, wooden clubs and the primitive bow. The rest is not our style or we are vary of the bugs (spear disapperance).

 

Checking it up again the game has total 40 different weapons but its all tiered up in lines so theres no point in using the older ones over the newer ones.

 

2 hours ago, alanea said:

boomerang chakram hatchet =  yeah lets take uniqueness of spear tby making bunch  of throwing weapons  with very minor differences ( boomerang especially as spear have emphasis on stun already

metal baton =  100%  same as club  as clubs are focusing on stuning  / knocking down

whip = we already have spear uniquer by large range but weak damage .. sweeping attack is just boring minor change

mace :  soo metal club with stun effect ?  100% same as what we have

sword :  yeah different animation  /attack degree  will make it sooooo unique  just kiding .. reskinned sledge that already have sweep heavy attack  leading just to ridiculousexperience seeying  guy witk AK  on back running around with sword lol

rapier would fit more ... but still ... 0 uniquenessas both axe / sledge  have quite wide aoe attacks

War Crime weapons :  when people complain knives  that both knives and machette  are bland boring and outclassed weapons because zombies die before bleed matter .. yet someone comes with idea to bring longer ( and presumably weaker  to balance it)  bleed

gunsword : the only  "unique"  idea ...  bit bizarre  clumsy to use (sacrificing power attack button to shot?) probably with insanely bad stats for both  sword and the gun itself (gun miniaturized + lacking barell/sword alot heavier than machette/sword because the gun)

The boomerang, Chakram and hatchet all serve different functions. The boomerang and Chakram returns to you for example if you miss and can hit an enemy while returning, the chakram pierces and bounces off from surfaces, the hatchet is actually an axe having all the functions for less stamina and throw capatibility.

 

The Metal Baton is not a stun weapon but a slowing weapon, the idea is to cripple the charging zombies back into walking/crawling speed.

 

The whip is quite unique, comparing it to the spear just because they are "ranged" is kind of silly dont you think?

 

Mace was an anti-armor weapon, the idea was to bash in armored targets to kill/slow them down.

 

Swords are various and different and are you seriously comparing a blunt impact weapon with something what cuts heads down?

 

War crime weapons, well if bleed is that bad it needs to be buffed to fit the idea.

 

Gunswords are mostly functioned well as swords or other cutting weapons but it was mostly the gun part what was terrible. Most of the cases these weapons were shot once to startle the enemy (if you even considered using it) then started slashing.

 

 

Now for the problem of melee weapons being obsolete thats something what needs to change by default, i often joke around with my brother that the undead are actually cyborg because theres just no way a human skull can survive a full power swing from the stone sledge. Same goes for a bunch of others, like the axe being a "tool".

 

Melee weapons are supposed to compete with the guns not just being the "oh @%$*#! im out of ammo!" reaction in the middle of a fight kind of like how it gone in Dying Light.

[alanea]

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I mostly just pick my favorites, i swear i remembered more of those weapons.

 

Lets see on my server with default settings with my brother we already have got bone knives, blunderbusses, stone spears, wooden clubs, stone sledgehammers. primitive bows plus the leather knuckle. I think thats pretty much all stone age stuff and we are at day 4. Tools are not counted in but we have the stone axe and stone showel.

 

Now from this both of us use the blunderbuss, wooden clubs and the primitive bow. The rest is not our style or we are vary of the bugs (spear disapperance).

well  i didnt see any primitive bow / knuckle in loot

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Checking it up again the game has total 40 different weapons but its all tiered up in lines so theres no point in using the older ones over the newer ones.

thats why they call that tiers would you complain  in every rpg that lvl  20  sword  is obsolete to lvl  40?

 

you start with weaker versions and move up to better  thats what  rpg progresion means you should check older 7days as all those higher tiers are just  upgraded versions for original weapons (desert vulture is disgustingly overpowered making  obsolete almost everything btw)

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

The boomerang, Chakram and hatchet all serve different functions. The boomerang and Chakram returns to you for example if you miss and can hit an enemy while returning, the chakram pierces and bounces off from surfaces, the hatchet is actually an axe having all the functions for less stamina and throw capatibility.

so its just spear that removes  biggest weakness of spear = missing  making spears obsolete ( or cut dmg into half inw hich case no one sane would use it anyway)

"bounce mechanic"  as we can see  for grenades would be awfull for any weapon so they would need to rework whoile game mechanic to please  2,5 guys who know what chakram is 

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

The Metal Baton is not a stun weapon but a slowing weapon, the idea is to cripple the charging zombies back into walking/crawling speed.

and who would use " slowing"  weapon   over stun batonmt hat locks them in place .. or club that  make them completely harmless ?

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

The whip is quite unique, comparing it to the spear just because they are "ranged" is kind of silly dont you think?

spear isunique by two things .... 

1)alot longer reach than any other melee weapon =  just like whip

2) throw ... that doesnt serve as ranged weapon ... but its close to guarantee knocking  down target

so both whip and spear are +reach + stun/knockdown weapons

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Mace was an anti-armor weapon, the idea was to bash in armored targets to kill/slow them down.

and club is what ?:D  weapon that stun/slow/knockdown lets add full plate armor zombies too  to use armor piercing effect :)

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Swords are various and different and are you seriously comparing a blunt impact weapon with something what cuts heads down?

big bad twohander that kill zombie in  1-2  hits  or explode  her head instantly ? yes  for me it doesnt matter if head explode or get cut off

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

War crime weapons, well if bleed is that bad it needs to be buffed to fit the idea.

problem with bleed isnt bleed itself ... problem is game style  where you need to get rid of zombies asap ... not wait till they  bleed out

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Gunswords are mostly functioned well as swords or other cutting weapons but it was mostly the gun part what was terrible. Most of the cases these weapons were shot once to startle the enemy (if you even considered using it) then started slashing.

well they are definitely worse in both functions . problem is they are  100%  pointless  ingame where you can switch  weapons instantly hybrid is useless  if you can be hiting them with machette and   next  0,1s later emptying ak

+its definitely not weapon you take  into zombie apocalypse to fight hordes of running zombies

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Now for the problem of melee weapons being obsolete thats something what needs to change by default, i often joke around with my brother that the undead are actually cyborg because theres just no way a human skull can survive a full power swing from the stone sledge. Same goes for a bunch of others, like the axe being a "tool".

well its fantasy/scifi rpg .. zombies itself have several supernatural abilities(ever seen four legged irradiated guy jump  24  meters far ? ) so iam amazed they actually need head:D

but simply said .. if zombie died from any bullet / axe to head  it would remove point of any advanced quality / mod/ammo everything  even now is quite good strategy to spray with weak  ammo depending on  50%  head explosion chance rather than damage

35 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Melee weapons are supposed to compete with the guns not just being the "oh @%$*#! im out of ammo!" reaction in the middle of a fight kind of like how it gone in Dying Light.

melee weapons work fine for slow zombies ....  you cant really  kite bunch of ferals  withou taking unnecesary hits

not to mention fireams  cant be really matched by knife  :D there is reason we moved from swords to shotguns ;)  7 days isnt minecraft  not to mention guns must always be far superior  ... because they need ammo  why would anyone use shotgunw asting  3 inventory slots for ammo  significant amount of resources to craft that ammo  if guy with  machette handled everything equally well  with no cost  apart of repair kit after 500 zombies

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, alanea said:

well  i didnt see any primitive bow / knuckle in loot

I think we found 3 now and 1 bow.

 

1 hour ago, alanea said:

thats why they call that tiers would you complain  in every rpg that lvl  20  sword  is obsolete to lvl  40?

 

you start with weaker versions and move up to better  thats what  rpg progresion means you should check older 7days as all those higher tiers are just  upgraded versions for original weapons (desert vulture is disgustingly overpowered making  obsolete almost everything btw)

I much more prefer weapon differences not just "X is higher level". Kind of like how borderlands have it, apart from the usual levels you have lots of different weapons they are similar but that doesnt bother people.

1 hour ago, alanea said:

lets add full plate armor zombies too  to use armor piercing effect

We already have armored zombies.

1 hour ago, alanea said:

General weapon talk. (sorry wanted to cut this down so it doesnt take up this much space to react.

Okay since all weapons i suggested invalidate another or just a numerical difference between two different weapon, please explain why it was necesseary to add in the game the Auto shotgun and the Sniper Rifle? 

 

How are you justifying the need for those guns and anything in the "items.xml" marked as future items like the drone turrets if everything is just some numeric change or invalidates something else?

1 hour ago, alanea said:

melee weapons work fine for slow zombies ....  you cant really  kite bunch of ferals  withou taking unnecesary hits

not to mention fireams  cant be really matched by knife  there is reason we moved from swords to shotguns 7 days isnt minecraft  not to mention guns must always be far superior  ... because they need ammo  why would anyone use shotgunw asting  3 inventory slots for ammo  significant amount of resources to craft that ammo  if guy with  machette handled everything equally well  with no cost  apart of repair kit after 500 zombies

Yes and in Dying Light melee weapons work for both the charging ferals and the slow zombies, its a melee oriented game with weapons created for horde attacks in mind unlike here where you have guns for horde and melee for slow killing of singular targets.

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I think we found 3 now and 1 bow.

 

I much more prefer weapon differences not just "X is higher level". Kind of like how borderlands have it, apart from the usual levels you have lots of different weapons they are similar but that doesnt bother people.

 

This is somewhat similar to the planned legendary weapons. On a much smaller scale probably, because for every developer working on 7D2D there are probably 20 or more working on a new Borderlands game. Never forget that when you demand lots and lots of new weapons.

 

32 minutes ago, Solomon said:

We already have armored zombies.

Okay since all weapons i suggested invalidate another or just a numerical difference between two different weapon, please explain why it was necesseary to add in the game the Auto shotgun and the Sniper Rifle? 

 

Balance with other attribute tress. Simple as that. TFP decided on 4 tiers of weapons (tier0 to tier3) and that meant auto shotgun and sniper rifle had to be added.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Solomon said:

 

How are you justifying the need for those guns and anything in the "items.xml" marked as future items like the drone turrets if everything is just some numeric change or invalidates something else?

Now the turrets are the unique example of a tier with almost totally different weapons. Note how long it took for TFP to implement them, A18 got the gun turret, A19 the melee turret and A20 will have the drone. While most of the other attributes were filled up to 4 tiers in just one alpha. 

 

32 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Yes and in Dying Light melee weapons work for both the charging ferals and the slow zombies, its a melee oriented game with weapons created for horde attacks in mind unlike here where you have guns for horde and melee for slow killing of singular targets.

 

[alanea]

2 hours ago, Solomon said:

I think we found 3 now and 1 bow.

3 ?  what an overkill i have  7x  tier 1 ak by day  28 #stone age

Quote

I much more prefer weapon differences not just "X is higher level". Kind of like how borderlands have it, apart from the usual levels you have lots of different weapons they are similar but that doesnt bother people.

We already have armored zombies.

Okay since all weapons i suggested invalidate another or just a numerical difference between two different weapon, please explain why it was necesseary to add in the game the Auto shotgun and the Sniper Rifle? 

maybe because they build last few alphas about having  3 tiers of guns ?   now adding primitive one why bother having  10  smg if they are 90% same  99% once you mod them

Quote

How are you justifying the need for those guns and anything in the "items.xml" marked as future items like the drone turrets if everything is just some numeric change or invalidates something else?

Yes and in Dying Light melee weapons work for both the charging ferals and the slow zombies, its a melee oriented game with weapons created for horde attacks in mind unlike here where you have guns for horde and melee for slow killing of singular targets.

wait we have 10 types of autonomous armed drones  that would fight for competition ?:D its first one  and 100%  unique ... unlike melee weapons where we already have several pieces that are almsot same as others  .. just worse

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

This is somewhat similar to the planned legendary weapons. On a much smaller scale probably, because for every developer working on 7D2D there are probably 20 or more working on a new Borderlands game. Never forget that when you demand lots and lots of new weapons.

seeing how ridiculously they failed to balance desert vulture (more damage than sniper rifle , rate of fire+accuracy of  9 mm pistol ,  big magazine , cheap ammo)... i say thank god we dont have  30 per alpha

Quote

Now the turrets are the unique example of a tier with almost totally different weapons. Note how long it took for TFP to implement them, A18 got the gun turret, A19 the melee turret and A20 will have the drone. While most of the other attributes were filled up to 4 tiers in just one alpha.

well melee turret is worse than ranged inbasicallyeverything ... it just drops  earlier in loot

[Roland]

9 hours ago, Solomon said:

The current looting system seems to be created for the sole reason to slow down early gameplay so players realize later that theres no endgame

Did you really just return to your false narrative after I already spent several posts explaining the truth about the current looting system?  I’m trying to wrap my head around your inability to comprehend or retain information. 
 

Let’s try one more time in list form. 
 

1) The current loot system isn’t finished so pretending that it is the intended finished design and then making up reasons for that design is dishonest. 
 

2) There will be the full range of weapons, schematics, parts, recipes, and tools available from the beginning of the game once the system is done. 
 

3) It’s not done yet. 

4) More weapons within the primitive class will be added to bring more diversity to starting weapons but for now, temporarily, we don’t have those. But they are working on them. 
 

5) The current design is just the beginning of what they plan to do. Please don’t think it is the final design. It’s not. 
 

6) Once the final design is implemented players will be able to choose whether they want a slower progression or a faster progression depending on how much risk they want to take. 
 

7) Things are just in the beginning phase for loot progression. What we have now is incomplete so it might feel off and unpolished. 

[iamnuff]

If you want to extend the stone-age, then force players to spawn far away from cities. Fluff it as being how they survived after the world ended. 

 

Removing loot is just awful, and making it so that places that should have good loot, don't, means that any shotgun messiah building you raid before hitting GS 50 or so is completely wasted. 

 

Why are we being punished for looting difficult locations in the early game? 

 

Stone tools should only be found in trash piles or survivor rucksacks. 

Places where other survivors dropped them or died with them. 

 

For that matter, what's the point of stone loot anyway? You can literally just make it out of a bit of wood, a rock and some grass. It takes less than a minute to make a full set of stone tools. 

Getting one in a crate is completely worthless. It might as well be empty. 

 

'extending the stone age' is just "We wanted to pad the unfun part out and force you to stay there longer."

But... we don't want to do that. because it isn't fun. 

 

Now, I do appreciate the blunderbuss getting more love. It's my favourite gun and it was completely worthless until recently, but your best way to do that is probably to make the ammo for it much easier to make than regular guns. 

 

Paper, rocks, gunpowder. 

 

What does this not cost? 

Bullet tips. 

Bullet tips require the tool and die kit, and a forge. 

 

Forge is where you transition frm the early game to the midgame, and the Tool and Die kit is a rare drop. 

Thus, before you get your hands on both of those, you're limited to whatever ammo you can find, rather than being able to make your own. 

Except for the blunderbuss, which doesn't require bullet tips, and thus is the most accessable early-game weapon. (after the bow, obviously) 

 

The blunderbuss shouldn't drop so commonly though, because it's obviously a home-made weapon crafted by a survivor, and it has no place in a shotgun messiah. 

Make it potential loot in survivor backpacks and rucksacks.

 

Make the shotgun messiah crates hold gun parts, the occasional low-grade handgun, and some random assorted bullets, and all the things to make bullets (bullet tips, gunpowder, nitrate, brass, lead, ect) 

Some gun-focused skillbooks? 

 

Make it clear to the player that they should build their own blunderbuss (if they want one) and make sure to give them all the stuff they need to craft ammo for it. 

 

TLDR: If your so far into the early game that it doesn't feel fair to give you a gun, give you bits of guns instead and let them prepare to build their own. 

With the occasional pistol and a bit of 9mm ammo as a 'scavenger' bonus, so they're actually finding some stuff and it doesn't feel like everything they have is home-made. 

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, alanea said:

well melee turret is worse than ranged inbasicallyeverything ... it just drops  earlier in loot

I like the melee turret, its not a weapon to kill with but a tool to manipulate zombie pathing to your liking.

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

Did you really just return to your false narrative after I already spent several posts explaining the truth about the current looting system?  I’m trying to wrap my head around your inability to comprehend or retain information. 

Oh dont worry i still know that, i remember our previous chat very well. Infact i have it bookmarked for references if needed but remember that my argument still stayed the same.

 

My position is that the current version feels like an attempt to slow down progression, my brother who never visited the forums in his life (english is not his forte) was the one who actually came up with this observation and i lowkey agree with it.

 

Also since i dont see the future i can only bring in arguments based on the present.

[meganoth]

19 minutes ago, iamnuff said:

If you want to extend the stone-age, then force players to spawn away from cities. Fluff it as being how they survived after the world ended. 

 

Excellent idea for some other game, unusable for 7D2D in its current form: In an 8kx8k area with cities distributed about the area I am in a city in 5 minutes real-time.

 

Quote

 

Removing loot is just awful, and making it so that places that should have good loot, don't, means that any shotgun messiah building you raid before hitting GS 50 or so is completely wasted. 

 

Why are we being punished for looting difficult locations in the early game? 

Because there are no difficult locations at the moment. That is planned for A20. Come on, even in this thread alone this must have been mentioned multiple times, are you just trolling to waste the time of other people?

Quote

 

Stone tools should only be found in trash piles or survivor rucksacks. 

Places where other survivors dropped them or died with them. 

 

For that matter, what's the point of stone loot anyway? You can literally just make it out of a bit of wood, a rock and some grass. It takes less than a minute to make a full set of stone tools. 

Getting one in a crate is completely worthless. It might as well be empty. 

 

 

In my current game I can literally, figuratively and actually only make a quality1 stone axe. The difference to a quality6 stone axe is profound. Are you always playing strength? Well, I don't

 

 

 

[iamnuff]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

Did you really just return to your false narrative after I already spent several posts explaining the truth about the current looting system?  I’m trying to wrap my head around your inability to comprehend or retain information. 
 

Let’s try one more time in list form. 
 

1) The current loot system isn’t finished so pretending that it is the intended finished design and then making up reasons for that design is dishonest. 
 

2) There will be the full range of weapons, schematics, parts, recipes, and tools available from the beginning of the game once the system is done. 
 

3) It’s not done yet. 

4) More weapons within the primitive class will be added to bring more diversity to starting weapons but for now, temporarily, we don’t have those. But they are working on them. 
 

5) The current design is just the beginning of what they plan to do. Please don’t think it is the final design. It’s not. 
 

6) Once the final design is implemented players will be able to choose whether they want a slower progression or a faster progression depending on how much risk they want to take. 
 

7) Things are just in the beginning phase for loot progression. What we have now is incomplete so it might feel off and unpolished. 

 

Repeating 'it's not done yet' isn't a proper defence. 

 

The game is for sale now.

We all know that it's not complete, but the Fun Pimps are accepting money for it. so the current version of the game should be playable and fun. 

 

If this was still an unstable build, I could accept that they'd toss something out to patch this in the next week or so, but it's not and they won't. 

This is the A19 stable release, which means that this is the state the game will probably be in for the next month or more. 

And it's not fun. 

Which is a problem. 

 

Also, going on and on and on about how the game will be better later is counterproductive. 

The game will be better if the devs get good feedback and can correct things to make the process more enjoyable for the players.

 

You trying to shout down anyone who isn't satisfied with the current build of the game in the forums is attempting to prevent that feedback. 

TLDR, stop harassing people who don't like the current build. People not liking things is an essential part of the development process. 

[iamnuff]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Excellent idea for some other game, totally worthless for 7D2D: In an 8kx8k area with cities distributed about the area I am in a city in 5 minutes real-time.

 

Make more dangerous zombies more common in cities too. 

I know they were a hotspot for zombie dogs in the past. Cop zombies too. 

 

If it's safer to stick to small towns that don't have good looting spots in them until you actually have a decent gun, then you can slow players down. 

 

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Because there are no difficult locations at the moment. That is planned for A20. Come on, even in this thread alone this must have been mentioned multiple times, are you just trolling to waste the time of other people?

 

That's bull. large scale POIs are extremely difficult in low GS. 

Taking on a factory filled with four dozen zombies with a bow and 14 arrows is suicide, unless you cheat your way up.  Especially if all you have to heal with is regular bandages and one or two painkillers. 

 

Hitting a ground level shop with four or five zombies in it is a completely different ballgame. 

 

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In my current game I can literally, figuratively and actually only make a quality1 stone axe. The difference to a quality6 stone axe is profound. Are you always playing strength? Well, I don't

 

Since i'm still in a low enough GS to be getting stone tools, obviously nothing Q6 has ever dropped.

 

I'm looking at grade 2 stone tools, tops. Which... is better than what I can make, given I have basically no skill-points at this stage, but not enough to actually matter.

 

What's even the diffrence between a g1 and a g5 stone axe? 

More mod slots? 

I don't have mods

More duribility? 

It costs ONE SMALL STONE to do a full repair, so who cares? 

More damage? Is it significant? 

Probably not. 

[meganoth]

9 minutes ago, iamnuff said:

 

Repeating 'it's not done yet' isn't a proper defence. 

 

The game is for sale now.

We all know that it's not complete, but the Fun Pimps are accepting money for it. so the current version of the game should be playable and fun. 

 

If this was still an unstable build, I could accept that they'd toss something out to patch this in the next week or so, but it's not and they won't. 

This is the A19 stable release, which means that this is the state the game will probably be in for the next month or more. 

And it's not fun. 

Which is a problem. 

 

Also, going on and on and on about how the game will be better later is counterproductive. 

The game will be better if the devs get good feedback and can correct things to make the process more enjoyable for the players.

 

You trying to shout down anyone who isn't satisfied with the current build of the game in the forums is attempting to prevent that feedback. 

TLDR, stop harassing people who don't like the current build. People not liking things is an essential part of the development process. 

 

While that is true about good feedback, feedback about features that are already planned to be changed, upgraded or finished in a specific way is actually not that useful, as it gets largely ignored. Why? Because the devs think the complete version will solve the problems. Even if they are wrong that will only become evident once the feature is complete.

 

 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

Make more dangerous zombies more common in cities too. 

I know they were a hotspot for zombie dogs in the past. Cop zombies too. 

 

As I understand it, that is not possible with the current RWG code as it does not mark the map with information where cities are. The old central city in A15 could be made more difficult because it was always at 0,0. So the game automatically made the area around 0,0 more difficult.

 

This feature is not really difficult to add I would imagine, but that work has not been done yet. It will be done for A20.

 

5 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

If it's safer to stick to small towns that don't have good looting spots in them until you actually have a decent gun, then you can slow players down. 

 

 

That's bull. large scale POIs are extremely difficult in low GS. 

Taking on a factory filled with four dozen zombies with a bow and 14 arrows is suicide, unless you cheat your way up.  Especially if all you have to heal with is regular bandages and one or two painkillers. 

 

If someone knows the factory he just needs about 30 wooden ladders or wood frame blocks and the knowledge where to find the loot boxes. But the even bigger problem is that the same loot boxes that are on the highest level of the factory are also to be found in any tier1 or tier2 POI. There is no fast way to solve this problem.

 

And even if someone doesn't use ladders or wood frames to directly go to the loot, a wooden club doesn't need ammo, just time and careful play. If you know what you are doing, even a factory filled with basic zombies is just routine work.

 

5 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

Hitting a ground level shop with four or five zombies in it is a completely different ballgame. 

Yes, but the ground level shop has the same loot boxes at the end as the factory. To change that, nearly 500 POIs would have to be reedited (or RWG changed like they want to do in A20)

 

5 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

Since i'm still in a low enough GS to be getting stone tools, obviously nothing Q6 has ever dropped.

 

I'm looking at grade 2 stone tools, tops. Which... is better than what I can make, given I have basically no skill-points at this stage, but not enough to actually matter.

 

What's even the diffrence between a g1 and a g5 stone axe? 

More mod slots? 

I don't have mods

More duribility? 

It costs ONE SMALL STONE to do a full repair, so who cares? 

More damage? Is it significant? 

Probably not. 

 

A g5 stone axe should have 40% more damage on every hit. Fill up the additional 2 mod slots and another 6%(?) damage gets added on top of that, additional to the mods effects. Durability does not matter, not even on tier1-3 tools, even repair packs are cheap.

 

Is 40-50% more damage significant to you?

 

[alanea]

7 hours ago, iamnuff said:

If you want to extend the stone-age, then force players to spawn far away from cities. Fluff it as being how they survived after the world ended. 

so people  enjoy runnign empty terrain for day or two  to have  more fun  ?

Quote

Removing loot is just awful, and making it so that places that should have good loot, don't, means that any shotgun messiah building you raid before hitting GS 50 or so is completely wasted. 

bs you can  loot probably any weapon at low quality ( i looted q3 deserty vulture  q2 sniper rifle  and bunch  of q1 ak   at low gamestage

Quote

Why are we being punished for looting difficult locations in the early game? 

 

there is no such thing as difficult place ... everything have scaled zombies to your gamestage .. equally   some are longer  but usually containing  more loot

Quote

 

Stone tools should only be found in trash piles or survivor rucksacks. 

Places where other survivors dropped them or died with them. 

so what should be inside crates ?  because clear intention is to slowly progress from primitive tools to steel over first weeks if you loot  iron  /steel shovel on day  1   whole progression is gone and stone tier tools are obsolete at start of game

Quote

'extending the stone age' is just "We wanted to pad the unfun part out and force you to stay there longer."

But... we don't want to do that. because it isn't fun. 

its sad you eprceive it as "unfun"   because running around weak  and with just blunmderbuss is  most enjoyable part of game  ... its mid / late game where you can facetank horde of irradiated wights  and spray them with unlimited ammo .. that turns game into boredom ( especially considering the fact looting wont give you anythiong more  at that point

 

Quote

Now, I do appreciate the blunderbuss getting more love. It's my favourite gun and it was completely worthless until recently, but your best way to do that is probably to make the ammo for it much easier to make than regular guns. 

 

Paper, rocks, gunpowder. 

 

What does this not cost? 

Bullet tips. 

Bullet tips require the tool and die kit, and a forge. 

 rock instead  bullet tip helps alot .... paper (  trash  material with almost no other use  droping at every cormer instead  bullet casings helps even more gunpowder is common drop now ... and you can buy  100-200 at traders usually  and for low price

so yeah  blunderbuss ammo  already is "much easier to craft"

Quote

make the shotgun messiah crates hold gun parts, the occasional low-grade handgun, and some random assorted bullets, and all the things to make bullets (bullet tips, gunpowder, nitrate, brass, lead, ect) 

Some gun-focused skillbooks? 

skillbooks have own crates and we are getting too many of them already  leda atc  in shotgun messiah chest is  as immersive as primitive bow ... why the hell would gun factory send crates full of nitrate to shops ....  soo unless  you  routinely enter weapon  shops .. and ask for   pack of coal ...

Quote

Make it clear to the player that they should build their own blunderbuss (if they want one) and make sure to give them all the stuff they need to craft ammo for it.

you cant  craft higher  grade  blunderbuss early game you need around  15  levels to craft  tier 5 -- if you dump all elvel ups into that  sole goal  normal player  would craft t2  or t3  at most   before they dump  blunder  overall

7 hours ago, Solomon said:

I like the melee turret, its not a weapon to kill with but a tool to manipulate zombie pathing to your liking.

Oh dont worry i still know that, i remember our previous chat very well. Infact i have it bookmarked for references if needed but remember that my argument still stayed the same.

well its useless past day  30  and that alone makes "  manipulating zombies" temporary early game solutionnothing else

but i think i already learned that you just troll around forums  complaining about everything   until game accept all your crazy bizzare ideas

7 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

Repeating 'it's not done yet' isn't a proper defence. 

 

The game is for sale now.

We all know that it's not complete, but the Fun Pimps are accepting money for it. so the current version of the game should be playable and fun. 

 

If this was still an unstable build, I could accept that they'd toss something out to patch this in the next week or so, but it's not and they won't. 

This is the A19 stable release, which means that this is the state the game will probably be in for the next month or more. 

And it's not fun. 

Which is a problem. 

well its your opinion and your problem honestly ... i enjoy game and have fun as well as many others  ,, every early acess game changes and can rapidly switch  directions ... some will like it some wont  but thats the risk od buying early acess game

Quote

Also, going on and on and on about how the game will be better later is counterproductive. 

The game will be better if the devs get good feedback and can correct things to make the process more enjoyable for the players.

 

You trying to shout down anyone who isn't satisfied with the current build of the game in the forums is attempting to prevent that feedback. 

TLDR, stop harassing people who don't like the current build. People not liking things is an essential part of the development process. 

problem is  that  silent majority is ok with state of game ...

actually most people i know love running around with blunderbuss instead ak for first week

7 hours ago, iamnuff said:

 

Make more dangerous zombies more common in cities too. 

I know they were a hotspot for zombie dogs in the past. Cop zombies too. 

cities dont affect spawns at all and never did  ... what does is biome .. sadfly biome have no impact on rewards  so you get harder enemies but no better rewards and yes pimps see this as problem that should change in future

Quote

That's bull. large scale POIs are extremely difficult in low GS. 

Taking on a factory filled with four dozen zombies with a bow and 14 arrows is suicide, unless you cheat your way up.  Especially if all you have to heal with is regular bandages and one or two painkillers. 

nope   all poi are equally hard i looted both waterworks and  messiah factory .. and met  single feral zombie .. no wights no cops  no greenies   high tier pois   ar ejust longer  not harder

Quote

Hitting a ground level shop with four or five zombies in it is a completely different ballgame. 

 

Since i'm still in a low enough GS to be getting stone tools, obviously nothing Q6 has ever dropped.

day  2 Q6   wood club say hello .... together with Q5 stone shovel   and day  3  dropped Q6 9 mm pistol  loot is  biased in favor of stone tools  but you can still loot nice pieces ... and especially mods as mods are often desired early more than slightly better item ... whats point of t6 club if you waste potential by not having mods for it

[Futchmacht]

On 7/11/2020 at 3:35 PM, watzlp said:

Starts to hack into the couple pre-Apocalypse crates that are there... only to find a primitive bow.. stone spear.. and blunderbuss.. in.. Both.. uhm.. what? This game takes place in America, land of guns in a cereal box.. why are these pre-apocalypse still sealed boxes containing... Post apocalypse beginner weaponry? Ok so then... looting the gun store is worthless.. Lets go get us some tools..

 

 

They need to replace stone tools with low level rusted tools or Walmart tools the kind you get for $2.99 you know the high quality stuff. The whole idea was that you cant loot atom bombs on day 1.  Its game balance if you want to talk about wrong when looting.. Whats the chance you will find 9mm in a trash bag 140 miles out in the bush. Or in a office block in a file cabinet. the looting system is in a game. The game starts with you poor and @%$*#!ty... and over time you get better stuff.