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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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3 minutes ago, Danidas said:

Its mainly say if your maining Fortitude and you have the choice between wearing Tough Guy Glasses for +1 to Fortitude or the Nerdy Glasses for +1 Intellect and +10% xp. Which one will benefit you more to wear long term? Lets say your low level and just competed a quest and the reward are either the Tough Guy Glasses or the Nerdy Glasses, which do you take?

Exactly, which is why I'm asking. I don't have access to the xml right now to find out the xp to level function. Without that it is hard to evaluate. 

 

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19 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Hmm, can't say I'm a fan of that at all. Forcing guns over melee. Another option being taken away. Another looter/shooter step. He'll be modded out in my games if that comes even remotely clue to being true.

It forces variety of tactics which is a good thing. There will still be plenty of zeds to melee and you can still melee the gasser just make sure you have some kind of gas protection on or move in and out quickly from the toxic gas cloud.

 

So when bandits come you will mod them out too? Because melee will not be an option against a guy with an M60 raining hell down on you.

19 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

Though special undead are cool I really hope you guys dont make it a fart.

He's been farting since Alpha 1, burping etc. Nobody ever noticed?

15 hours ago, Demonoid74 said:

As long as I can still punch the gas bags right in the $%#$%#^^ face and beat them to death its all good...doesn't matter if I have to wear special protection or not...

Of course you will be able to. All I was saying is it might not be the best strat to melee with one without protection. Just like fighting a wight with fists on day 1 is a bad idea.

14 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Swapping out head/face gear depending on what zombies type I happen to be fighting at the moment is what this leads to and is not something I will be doing. What other type is going to need what other special form of protection? No thank you. Easy to work around tho if that turns out to be the case. As I said, IF it turns out that way I'll be "fixing" it in my games.

Preparation is king. You will need radiation protection from radiation zones and radiation zombies, gas masks against gassers, etc. There will be probably be gas mods for helmets you will just need to have one installed.

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20 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Right but it seems even with great connections the reach is excessive.   No problems with any other games, even pure FPS games.

Uh, did you miss me calling it "Excessive" already?

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3 hours ago, meganoth said:

How can everyone of you be so sure it isn't the trash or just the one script event that is in a few pois ? If pregnable had posted a video (or at least a few relevant pictures with descriptions) we could maybe say with certainty "this thing is broken" or "you made a boo boo here".

 

His description had not a lot of exact information (like which room in which poi, was his head lamp on, what was his actual stealth level when the zombies woke up, frequency of those events...) and it seems to me you are all inserting your own preconceptions into his words.

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

 

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

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5 minutes ago, madmole said:

Of course you will be able to. All I was saying is it might not be the best strat to melee with one without protection. Just like fighting a wight with fists on day 1 is a bad idea.

MM, are underground threats of any kind within your design works for this upcoming alpha?

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11 hours ago, Vundecat said:

I've been playing a lot of A19 and I'm really digging it.  The PoIs look much nicer with the new art assets!  There's many things in A19 that I really like, the hunger/thirst bars were a much-needed addition, however, it's created a sort of guessing game as to how much food I need to eat to top my meters off now.  It's probably been suggested before, but would it be possible to implement a system where health/food/thirst bars are filled in with a lighter shade of red/green/blue whenever we're healing or eating/drinking?  So we know how much of our bar is going to be filled up and know right away if we need to drink or eat more, rather than having to wait for the bar to finish filling! 

 

It would make sense I think, at least for food/water, I know when I have room for seconds right after eating something!  It'd be a nice QoL improvement if the devs have time to implement it!

That was supposed to happen with the design but fell through the cracks.

3 hours ago, CXGenesis said:

Could we please try to add actual models to the food items? Like for a can of chili, have it show an actual can of chili when its equipped, or stuff like that. I mean its a small detail, but it feels off having just a piece of meat in your guys hand.

Should just insta eat and not be able to equip food, like every other game. Its been on the list to redo food items but keeps getting pushed back because dozens of new weapons we added takes time to animate and model.

4 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

Pipe flamethrower...... duh!

That is called a pipe bomb.

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6 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

 

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

I would have said "concise and with reproducible steps", but sure, if you want to send Fataal on a possibly futile bug hunt that will do as well 😆

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8 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

MM, are underground threats of any kind within your design works for this upcoming alpha?

Why bother we took out digging? :D

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

 

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

Broken is a very subjective term.  What feels broken might be working as intended to someone else.  2 peoples similar anecdotal experiences also dont make things "facts."

 

Facts require proof and that is why its critical to provide reproduction of specific steps otherwise there is no sure way confirm if the root cause was addressed or not...

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Broken is a very subjective term.  What feels broken might be working as intended to someone else.  2 peoples similar anecdotal experiences also dont make things "facts."

 

Facts require proof and that is why its critical to provide reproduction of specific steps otherwise there is no sure way confirm if the root cause was addressed or not...

Truth.

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9 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

are you walking on trash? trash is like an alarm for sleepers to come and attack you, i think you can clear the trash silently with an axe, or you can get the perk that makes walking over trash silent from a combat manual, but otherwise avoid trash (its everywhere in PoIs) and you should do a lot better.

 

Nah, I was not walking over trash. 

 

The one spot is after you go up the first ladder.  I got up it and was fine, then I had to go back into sneak mode. 

 

I waited a bit after going into sneak mode and then as soon as I passed midway by the wall they wake up and come for me. 

 

Maybe they are actually right next to the wall on the other side or something and their visibility range is glitching through the wall?

 

 

I noticed while playing that in a number of POIs there seemed to be spots where I would be sneaking, not hit trash or anything, and my stealth says I am super stealthy, and certain nearby zombies just wake up. 

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11 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

 

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

I would not call stealth broken. It has rules and they work. Now the player understanding those rules is another thing.

 

Like:

No you can't run around in daylight or with a light and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More light, higher meter. Stay in the shadows.

No you can't make a lot of noise and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More noise, higher meter.

The higher the meter, the longer the range they may see or hear you. It is a threshold.

No you can't stand outside a sleeper volume and make a bunch of noise and expect them to react, because we don't want the whole POI awake because you shot your gun. For performance reasons, the sleepers are not even spawned in volumes you are not close to.

Trash on the ground may make noise when you step on it, so don't or destroy it, which also may make some noise.

There are no magic spots on sleepers. You damage them, they awaken and aggro. The zed next to him does not care unless he personally sees or hears you or gets damaged.

Sleeper volumes can each be set to awaken and aggro the zeds regardless of stealth. That is up to the level designers and their goal with that volume.

 

Agility is my favorite build and I often use stealth, so I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not. Granted things can change that I may not notice, like new sounds added or noise levels changed or light adjustments and bugs happen.

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28 minutes ago, madmole said:

Why bother we took out digging? :D

Behold non english speakers absolutely understanding the comment and positively reacting to that feedback, lol.

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4 minutes ago, pregnable said:

 

Nah, I was not walking over trash. 

 

The one spot is after you go up the first ladder.  I got up it and was fine, then I had to go back into sneak mode. 

 

I waited a bit after going into sneak mode and then as soon as I passed midway by the wall they wake up and come for me. 

 

Maybe they are actually right next to the wall on the other side or something and their visibility range is glitching through the wall?

 

 

I noticed while playing that in a number of POIs there seemed to be spots where I would be sneaking, not hit trash or anything, and my stealth says I am super stealthy, and certain nearby zombies just wake up. 

People underestimate zombie hearing. They detect you more by hearing than seeing. We do not have audio occlusion, so walls do not block sounds.

 

With zero light and maximum stealth perks, they will always see/hear at some minimum distance like 1m.

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4 hours ago, meganoth said:

How can everyone of you be so sure it isn't the trash or just the one script event that is in a few pois ? If pregnable had posted a video (or at least a few relevant pictures with descriptions) we could maybe say with certainty "this thing is broken" or "you made a boo boo here".

 

His description had not a lot of exact information (like which room in which poi, was his head lamp on, what was his actual stealth level when the zombies woke up, frequency of those events...) and it seems to me you are all inserting your own preconceptions into his words.

 

Yeah sure, I believe one spot is business_burnt_02, right after you go up the ladder and have to pass through the elevator shaft. 

 

I was sneaking past the left wall in the elevator shaft, if that helps. 

 

I can not get on an take pictures atm, but I can later if needed. 

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8 minutes ago, faatal said:

I would not call stealth broken. It has rules and they work. Now the player understanding those rules is another thing.

 

Like:

No you can't run around in daylight or with a light and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More light, higher meter. Stay in the shadows.

No you can't make a lot of noise and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More noise, higher meter.

The higher the meter, the longer the range they may see or hear you. It is a threshold.

No you can't stand outside a sleeper volume and make a bunch of noise and expect them to react, because we don't want the whole POI awake because you shot your gun. For performance reasons, the sleepers are not even spawned in volumes you are not close to.

Trash on the ground may make noise when you step on it, so don't or destroy it, which also may make some noise.

There are no magic spots on sleepers. You damage them, they awaken and aggro. The zed next to him does not care unless he personally sees or hears you or gets damaged.

Sleeper volumes can each be set to awaken and aggro the zeds regardless of stealth. That is up to the level designers and their goal with that volume.

 

Agility is my favorite build and I often use stealth, so I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not. Granted things can change that I may not notice, like new sounds added or noise levels changed or light adjustments and bugs happen.

 

The bolded line is the one that most people don't get or understand and claim stealth is broken as a result. As the simple fact that you can do everything perfectly right with stealth but the moment you get close enough to spawn in one of these auto awake/aggro zombie volumes all your efforts are meaningless. Which people naturally see as a build breaking bug since why bother going through all the effort to stealth when the loud and proud approach always works.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah sure, I believe one spot is business_burnt_02, right after you go up the ladder and have to pass through the elevator shaft. 

 

I was sneaking past the left wall in the elevator shaft, if that helps. 

 

I can not get on an take pictures atm, but I can later if needed. 

Yes, there are a few insta-wakes in quite a few POIS that feel cheap. But reality is, you weren't 0% seen. So as long as there's a number >0 in the yellow bar, you will always have a chance  insta-wake some Zds no matter how big your stealth skill is or if you move too close because of the slightest noise. So go lightest armor (gotta be padded or full modded light) with full muffled mods and top agility and full stealth books and a knife and even THEN you are not a skyrim-like god. BUT I can confirm that you are pretty close, and you need no bullets and it feels AWESOME and rewarding. As long as you kill first, loot/ wrench later.

 

The stealth in this game, as it is, is better than , again, Skyrim. Not a fan of the yellow bar at first, but exact numbers will always trump an eye-like visual clue. 

 

 

Edit: Using a ladder with stealth needs a book or a little tunning, but that's alpha for you.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, faatal said:

People underestimate zombie hearing. They detect you more by hearing than seeing. We do not have audio occlusion, so walls do not block sounds.

 

With zero light and maximum stealth perks, they will always see/hear at some minimum distance like 1m.

 

Yeah, that could have been it in that spot, they might be detecting me through the wall if they are on that wall.

 

There are some spots that seem to wake them up that are not in that range though, It could even be that some spots are still making trash noise after you break them lol. 

 

 

If you want to check it out though, I think business_burnt_02 is a good one to check.  I think if you just go though that with like 3 or 4 points in the sneak skill you will spot all of the issues, or whatever the cause is, if there is no issue. 

 

Like in the second room, there is a door on the right with a minor loot room, and I think even if you break that trash and stuff and do not wake him up, if you walk past a certain point a ways away from the door he will wake up inside. 

 

I am just trying to help out.  I normally play a str/intel build... I love those robotic sledges lol. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Yes, there are a few insta-wakes in quite a few POIS that feel cheap. But reality is, you weren't 0% seen. So as long as there's a number >0 in the yellow bar, you will always have a chance  insta-wake some Zds no matter how big your stealth skill is or if you move too close because of the slightest noise. So go lightest armor (gotta be padded or full modded light) with full muffled mods and top agility and full stealth books and a knife and even THEN you are not a skyrim-like god. BUT I can confirm that you are pretty close, and you need no bullets and it feels AWESOME and rewarding. As long as you kill first, loot/ wrench later.

 

The stealth in this game, as it is, is better than , again, Skyrim. Not a fan of the yellow bar at first, but exact numbers will always trump an eye-like visual clue. 

 

 

Edit: Using a ladder with stealth needs a book or a little tunning, but that's alpha for you.

I think the insta wake/attack configuration is a nice way to create cool encounters (e.g. zombie break outs, loot room fights, etc.) but it has to be used sparingly so stealth gameplay isn't impacted too much.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, madmole said:

 

That is called a pipe bomb.

well yes but no, pipe bomb's blowing up is dangerous the fermentation is whats will kill you (unless im wrong which i might... AKA i AM! )

Technically the Molotov would be the "pipe flamethrower" because the fire is what kills you. 

why am i explaining this! i don't even know what im saying! the voices are speaking to me again!

 

i need sham!   

Edited by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

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2 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I think the insta wake/attack configuration is a nice way to create cool encounters (e.g. zombie break outs, loot room fights, etc.) but it has to be used sparingly so stealth gameplay isn't impacted too much.

Sure, it needs some tweaks, but have you ever tried and played an end game agility character ? Hell, even at halfway there you  use 1 repair kit and a machete tops to clear an entire tier V POI. I welcome some spices here and there.

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16 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Sure, it needs some tweaks, but have you ever tried and played an end game agility character ? Hell, even at halfway there you  use 1 repair kit and a machete tops to clear an entire tier V POI. I welcome some spices here and there.

 

Yeah, although you can do pretty much the same thing with a loud weapon and zero points in stealth atm heh. 

 

I always laugh when I sneak attack kill a radiated zombie with other zombies nearby and try to guess how many I can kill before they wake up when I am shooting a shotgun in the room. 

 

The main thing I notice playing stealthy and non-stealthy is that I can usually do the POI just as stealthy either way. 

 

So if I am only really waking up zombies at scripted spots, then it just makes me wonder why I invested in the stealth skill at all, cause I can do the same thing without it and a shotgun. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I would have said "concise and with reproducible steps", but sure, if you want to send Fataal on a possibly futile bug hunt that will do as well 😆

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Broken is a very subjective term.  What feels broken might be working as intended to someone else.  2 peoples similar anecdotal experiences also dont make things "facts."

 

Facts require proof and that is why its critical to provide reproduction of specific steps otherwise there is no sure way confirm if the root cause was addressed or not...

49 minutes ago, faatal said:

I would not call stealth broken. It has rules and they work. Now the player understanding those rules is another thing.

Guys, I'm just trying to help here and assuming players are just "too dumb" to understand what's happening is not always the best choice if you really want to find bugs and have a better game... just saying.

 

@faatal

I'll give you some examples that you can reproduce at ANY time.

 

1) While clearing a POI you can break closet doors with arrows, they'll make a loud noise but since "you're sneaking" the zombie inside won't wake up. Even if this is intended it is broken IMO and leaving it as it is will just make the game look dumb.

2) While sneaking in range of a zombie in the dark you turn on the helmet light and the "sneak meter" goes all the way up, but the zombie won't still see you.

3) In some POI's rooftop if you sneak near the area where the zombies are supposed to spawn you'll see no one, then when you enter the "volume" you'll suddenly see all the zombies appear out of thin air. That's another thing that needs fixing unless you want to completely ruin people's immersion.

4) I forgot! You can also kill Boars by sneaking in front of them (like literally in front of them) and shoot them in the face with a BB or shotty.

 

What I can't understand is how can the QA team have possibly missed ANY of these problems unless they completely skipped playing stealth characters.

Please, tell me this is already on your to-fix list!

 

Also, sorry for the OT, this is not the Bugs Report forum but since you asked...

Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

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11 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Guys, I'm just trying to help here and assuming players are just "too dumb" to understand what's happening is not always the best choice if you really want to find bugs and have a better game... just saying.

 

@faatal

I'll give you some examples that you can reproduce at ANY time.

 

1) While clearing a POI you can break closet doors with arrows, they'll make a loud noise but since "you're sneaking" the zombie inside won't wake up. Even if this is intended it is broken IMO and leaving it as it is will just make the game look dumb.

2) While sneaking in range of a zombie in the dark you turn on the helmet light and the "sneak meter" goes all the way up, but the zombie won't still see you.

3) In some POI's rooftop if you sneak near the area where the zombies are supposed to spawn you'll see no one, then when you enter the "volume" you'll suddenly see all the zombies appear out of thin air. That's another thing that needs fixing unless you want to completely ruin people's immersion.

4) I forgot! You can also kill Boars by sneaking in front of them (like literally in front of them) and shoot them in the face with a BB or shotty.

 

What I can't understand is how can the QA team have possibly missed ANY of these problems unless they completely skipped playing stealth characters.

Please, tell me this is already on your to-fix list!

 

Also, sorry for the OT, this is not the Bugs Report forum but since you asked...

 

Its already been said that most of the items you list as bugs that need fixing are the results of the volume based spawn system working. Which a lot of them are in place by design to save system resources and are mostly intended to occur. Grant it more effort can be put in to hide them and a bit of polish could be applied here and there.

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2 minutes ago, Danidas said:

Its already been said that most of the items you list as bugs that need fixing are the results of the volume based spawn system working. Which a lot of them are in place by design to save system resources and are mostly intended to occur. Grant it more effort can be put in to hide them and a bit of polish could be applied here and there.

As I expected... a dismissive reply.

Also the only point which applies to POI volumes is n.3, you really don't know what you're talking about or just outright ignore my points for some obscure reason. 🙈

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