Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Laz Man]

29 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one. This is starting to feel like the POI Dev side equivalent of wedge tips. Abuse "unintended" behavior of a opponent. Where zombies not being able to walk climb or attack wedge tips was what we took advantage of, the POI Devs are taking advantage of us expecting stealth to actually do something. Getting the early inclination that who ever designed the POIs with volume auto aggro don't want you stealthing and "ruining" their "intended experience". If I find I keep running into this with the new dungeon POIs I'm just going to skip them. (Suspected Auto Aggro Volumes in the Ranger Station south of Diresville are the sloped yard between the POI entry garage and the blue barracks building, and the top floor of the main station building.)

I get the frustration.  However, I don't believe all POIs are intended to be 100% stealthable.  Many stealth games use this type of design. (e.g. unstealthable areas/bosses).

 

Also, i disagree with your analogy.  It's not unintended behavior if the mechanic/design is creating the experience they want to deliver.  Just like how a director of a movie/tv show manages the pacing and scenes for the audience.

[Noctoras]

20 minutes ago, Orsey said:

Newbies? ))) I just don't like wasting a lot of ammo)

Wasting is kind of hard when finding more than you can use 😁
 

[Roland]

55 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one.

2 out of how many volumes? If it is 2 out of 4 so you could only utilize stealth for 50% of the POI then I agree that it really invalidates the stealth points that were taken. However, if it is 2 out 10 then Stealth is great and you had a stealthy experience for 80% and an open combat experience for 20%. Sometimes there are circumstances that work against you and having to quickly adapt to a changing situation is challenging and fun-- or at least different than always playing it out the same way.

 

@pApA^LeGBa made the point on a different thread that there should be some sort of visual or audio cue as a logical reason that communicates the automatic wake up to the player so that they are not confused about why it happened and just think their stealth is bugged. So maybe you hear a crate fall from out of sight and the noise wakes them all up. Your stealth was fine but bad luck sent you a curve ball. I agree with pApA that having some kind of cue that explains why they all wake up would be good to have. But I think having occasional areas where things are not going to be able to be stealthed is fine. It adds variety to the gameplay.

[pregnable]

34 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I get the frustration.  However, I don't believe all POIs are intended to be 100% stealthable.  Many stealth games use this type of design. (e.g. unstealthable areas/bosses).

 

Also, i disagree with your analogy.  It's not unintended behavior if the mechanic/design is creating the experience they want to deliver.  Just like how a director of a movie/tv show manages the pacing and scenes for the audience.

 

Yeah, although there does not really seem to be much of a benefit for pumping from the shadows atm.  I am pretty sure you can do most POIs the stealthy path just as well without it, using a shotgun.  Even better honestly if you are doing the POI backwards and breaking through walls, lel. 

 

I say this as someone who does not really care about stealth, I am a robotic sledge boy now.

 

A shotgun waking up and entire tier 5 POI would honestly be a huge buff to my build, because it is nothing John Henry(my fav robotic sledge) and I can not handle, and we would get it done way faster.  

 

 

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah, although there does not really seem to be much of a benefit for pumping from the shadows atm.  I am pretty sure you can do most POIs the stealthy path just as well without it, using a shotgun.  Even better honestly if you are doing the POI backwards and breaking through walls, lel. 

 

I say this as someone who does not really care about stealth, I am a robotic sledge boy now.

 

A shotgun waking up and entire tier 5 POI would honestly be a huge buff to my build, because it is nothing John Henry(my fav robotic sledge) and I can not handle, and we would get it done way faster.  

 

 

Who needs a robotic drone when we have Myra and Myla to take care of business?  (no pervy jokes Snowdog.... -_-) INT is my favorite build.

[bloodmoth13]

16 hours ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

ive been doing a knife run right now but i have not had a lot of opportunities to use it for stealth, though having advanced muffled connectors, light armor to padded armor, and perks into the stealth tree along with the various books for stealth should work, ive focussed on using the bow right now for stealth kills, also when going through a poi destroy the garbage on the ground or broken glass, they always wake up to that stuff, its tricky but managable

I started destroying trash recently till i get the 'sneak over trash silently book'. Thats a hell of a lot of investment though to get a stealth kill off, the risk is far too high and the reward isnt that good.

The thing is, its not online when its needed, for example:

 

Early game its just far too unreliable, early game knife is bone shiv, it might not deal enough damage to one shot them, and you probably wont even get the sneak bonus damage in the first place.  

Mid game its too risky for the reward, if your doing stealth build at this stage then you probably have a wooden bow with iron arrows, but even stone arrows you get a reliable chance to one shot them with a head shot. A knife is the same reward for a much higher risk, you might save on some iron arrows, but that isnt really that vital.

Late game your swimming in ammo, you really dont need to worry about wasting a few arrows, or hell bullets on your t3 q6 silenced sniper rifle.

 

Even with all the mods and everything it still doesnt feel like its worth it.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Report it in the bug pool with supporting evidence and you will either get a thanks or some follow up questions/requests or a message that it is working as intended by the QA staff.

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

[Laz Man]

2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

If you have Windows 10, you can download Windows Xbox Gaming App which has built in recording software for gaming.  Its free, and its what I use.

[Jugginator]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

I like Bandicam or OBS; Bandicam is extremely high-performance. @Laz Man is right there, too, but that stuff eats a lot of memory (Windows gaming apps period).

[betam4x]

Had an interesting scenario pop up yesterday. Broke into the back door of a POI. 4 zombies woke up. I slowly started backing up, and a zombie (construction worker) jumped over me and landed in front of the door, preventing me from escaping. 2 more zombies jumped as I swung my club at them. This was in broad daylight on day 3. ;)

[Jost Amman]

39 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

If you have Windows 10, you can download Windows Xbox Gaming App which has built in recording software for gaming.  Its free, and its what I use.

Thanks, seems ok, but I don't want all the overhead that app has.

[Jost Amman]

54 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

I like Bandicam or OBS; Bandicam is extremely high-performance. @Laz Man is right there, too, but that stuff eats a lot of memory (Windows gaming apps period).

Thanks a bunch, I think Bandicam is the best option for me since I don't really need to stream to anyone.

[rubens9311]

55 minutes ago, betam4x said:

Had an interesting scenario pop up yesterday. Broke into the back door of a POI. 4 zombies woke up. I slowly started backing up, and a zombie (construction worker) jumped over me and landed in front of the door, preventing me from escaping. 2 more zombies jumped as I swung my club at them. This was in broad daylight on day 3.

 

It's what I love the most about this alpha and the previous one.

The game is no longer easy. At least for those of us who hate dying. (Always playing in demented or 1 previous tier in MP)

And the new POIs give me that feeling of Will it be my last day of life? You never know where they can come from.

 

Sorry, I'm in fan mode. Loving A19 stable

[Laz Man]

1 minute ago, rubens9311 said:

 

It's what I love the most about this alpha and the previous one.

The game is no longer easy. At least for those of us who hate dying. (Always playing in demented or 1 previous tier in MP)

And the new POIs give me that feeling of Will it be my last day of life? You never know where they can come from.

 

Sorry, I'm in fan mode. Loving A19 stable

Isn't it great?  Can almost recreate any thriller movie jump scare you can think of in a POI...😅

 

[Jugginator]

11 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Thanks a bunch, I think Bandicam is the best option for me since I don't really need to stream to anyone.

Yeah it's great, both are; OBS records too it's not just for streaming. But, Bandicam is a bit better on the performance side and requires way less configuratin.

[MechanicalLens]

I had to spawn a few deco items in, but I think my small shack turned out quite well if I do say so myself.  My favorite edition is probably the conveniently placed urinal.

 

[Toban]

7 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

I had to spawn a few deco items in, but I think my small shack turned out quite well if I do say so myself.  My favorite edition is probably the conveniently placed urinal.

 

Just remember to blow out the candle before you go to sleep!

[Phoenixshade35]

@madmoleI hope when the grease monkey book is in the game it is awesome, i was looking forward to crafting other vehicles that was in the game lol.  I know it needs the fine points ironed out, im just saying

 

On another note, one thing i would not mind seeing is in regards to the hunting knife, the regular attack i think should be raised by 3 or 4 points, the power attack is perfect, but the regular is a little low, i would even suggest with it maybe the animation swing like the machete and power attack of the knife, just my two cents

[MechanicalLens]

9 minutes ago, Toban said:

Just remember to blow out the candle before you go to sleep!

I don't need to, I shoot it with my pistol.  Don't worry, I have plenty of spares. 😂

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

I think you can record in Steam but not sure. I know you can live stream. I use Bandicam and like it. I used the free version for quite awhile before I felt guilty and supported them by buying the full version. I would check to see if you can record gameplay within steam itself. If so you could just post the link to that without needing to upload to YouTube or try and attach a big file.

 

You can also give a step by step list of exactly how to reproduce the bug that is clear enough for one of our typical smurfs to follow. It doesn't have to be a video. That just spoils them...

[rubens9311]

15 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

I don't need to, I shoot it with my pistol.  Don't worry, I have plenty of spares. 😂

 

Here at ARG the Simpsons taught us that Americans turn off their lights that way. So I believe you! haha

[Jugginator]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think you can record in Steam but not sure. I know you can live stream. I use Bandicam and like it. I used the free version for quite awhile before I felt guilty and supported them by buying the full version. I would check to see if you can record gameplay within steam itself. If so you could just post the link to that without needing to upload to YouTube or try and attach a big file

Sadly no, there are game specific ones like CSGO but no actual recorder.

[faatal]

On 8/26/2020 at 2:29 PM, Jost Amman said:

Guys, I'm just trying to help here and assuming players are just "too dumb" to understand what's happening is not always the best choice if you really want to find bugs and have a better game... just saying.

 

@faatal

I'll give you some examples that you can reproduce at ANY time.

 

1) While clearing a POI you can break closet doors with arrows, they'll make a loud noise but since "you're sneaking" the zombie inside won't wake up. Even if this is intended it is broken IMO and leaving it as it is will just make the game look dumb.

2) While sneaking in range of a zombie in the dark you turn on the helmet light and the "sneak meter" goes all the way up, but the zombie won't still see you.

3) In some POI's rooftop if you sneak near the area where the zombies are supposed to spawn you'll see no one, then when you enter the "volume" you'll suddenly see all the zombies appear out of thin air. That's another thing that needs fixing unless you want to completely ruin people's immersion.

4) I forgot! You can also kill Boars by sneaking in front of them (like literally in front of them) and shoot them in the face with a BB or shotty.

 

What I can't understand is how can the QA team have possibly missed ANY of these problems unless they completely skipped playing stealth characters.

Please, tell me this is already on your to-fix list!

 

Also, sorry for the OT, this is not the Bugs Report forum but since you asked...

1 - Pretty sure the noise originates at the player, so that would be a bug.

2 - Your sneak meter is based on your light level, not what any specific zombie can or can't see. It the zombie facing you? AI does not see light on walls. It sees you or not.

3 - When you get near a volume it spawns, so you may see things appear. Just like a lot of other stuff appears out of nothing in games. Low FPS really breaks 'immersion'.

4 - Yep

[hiemfire]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Also, i disagree with your analogy.  It's not unintended behavior if the mechanic/design is creating the experience they want to deliver.  Just like how a director of a movie/tv show manages the pacing and scenes for the audience.

You're missing which behavior is unintended. Auto Aggro volumes sends the message that you are not supposed to stealth. Players trying to stealth in those volumes is the simile to the zombies in A17 and A18 jumping up the wedge walls only to slide back down.

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

2 out of how many volumes? If it is 2 out of 4 so you could only utilize stealth for 50% of the POI then I agree that it really invalidates the stealth points that were taken. However, if it is 2 out 10 then Stealth is great and you had a stealthy experience for 80% and an open combat experience for 20%. Sometimes there are circumstances that work against you and having to quickly adapt to a changing situation is challenging and fun-- or at least different than always playing it out the same way.

For the Ranger Station the first location, slope from garage to the barracks, is the first choke point. The player is quite literally in a closed off area with the options being move forwards down the path or bust out a wall (the entry into the garage from outside the POI is a "no-return drop" if you don't bring frames or wood to craft them). To preempt the suggestion, busting out a wall to get out of the choke point and risking waking the sleepers kills the point of stealthing in a POI. The second is the top room of the main station building which, if you follow the outlined path, is the first room in the building you get into when entering (they drop in from the false ceiling). Both trigger after you have a chance to remove noise traps at the entrances to the sections regardless of if you do or not (nice way to send the message that dealing with those first doesn't matter by the way...). From what I can recall there were 3 other spawn volumes. Main station building basement (the exit can act as a bypass that lets you skip the entire station building and go directly to the loot, just crouch), the utility building ladder access and the station buildings upper balcony (sleeping buzzard spawns).

 

That does give me an idea though. How about we share the love then with the other play styles. No fair letting letting stealthers have all the "fun".

 

@madmole Maybe one of the special zombies you're working on could have an aoe aura, 10m radius and not dependent on line of sight so it passes through walls, that temporarily reduces the attribute points of players within it by 9 to a minimum of 1 and be spawnable in POIs as a sleeper (aura active regardless of it being asleep or awake). A wraith of sorts.

[Laz Man]

2 minutes ago, faatal said:

1 - Pretty sure the noise originates at the player, so that would be a bug.

2 - Your sneak meter is based on your light level, not what any specific zombie can or can't see. It the zombie facing you? AI does not see light on walls. It sees you or not.

3 - When you get near a volume it spawns, so you may see things appear. Just like a lot of other stuff appears out of nothing in games. Low FPS really breaks 'immersion'.

4 - Yep

So thats why #1 can happen.  I have seen alot of people snipe closet doors from far away to expose the sleeper inside without waking them.  Not a huge deal to me but makes sense if noise originates on the playet and not the breaking closet door.