Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[pregnable]

16 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

On very early looting of a Crack a Books; I regret looting the 'book piles' on day 4 as those go poof (disappear like ammo piles).

 

I have looted them later in game at higher level and loot stage and the book piles seem much worse than the normal shelves you find in houses. 

 

Nothing really to regret because you still would have gotten mostly paper if you had waited lel. 

[Roland]

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

[FileMachete]

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 

I'd like it if that second find was for spare parts, not as a replacement for when the first stops working.

 

Minor difference yeah, but to me it's like a car/truck. You 'should' be able to keep one running & in good shape for decades, if you want to. Sure it takes maintenance, but it also has sentimental value that makes it special.

 

I'm not a nut, I don't get that attached to things in a game, but it's the way my brain works in general, so I've never liked the 'use it for a while then toss it out and hope you have a replacement' mechanic.

 

Edit: Bic vs. Zippo. I still have my grandfathers Zippo from WWII.

[STyK_]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

Makes for more gameplay. Cut down on just loot and sell cause you want to stock pile/horde things that will degrade. Once you hit the end game you usually have all kinds of stuff like steel tool parts you have no use for anymore, this would give them purpose. Honestly I think it should be everything not just tools. I do believe the loot tables would have to be adjusted to add a mechanic like this. 25% loot would get the worst of it but nobody plays that but me so its fine.

[Jay_ombie]

4 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

I'd like it if that second find was for spare parts, not as a replacement for when the first stops working.

 

Minor difference yeah, but to me it's like a car/truck. You 'should' be able to keep one running & in good shape for decades, if you want to. Sure it takes maintenance, but it also has senimental value that makes it special.

 

I'm not a nut, I don't get that attached to things in a game, but it's the way my brain works in general, so I've never liked the 'use it for a while then toss it out and hope you have a replacement' mechanic.

Ahh the Trigger broom scenario.  

 

Same Broom for years, just changed the brush a few times as well as the stick.

[bdubyah]

Just throwing out there that I would absolutely love for item degradation to make a return. I understand there would be complications with shrinking mod slots but I feel like it would be worth the trouble. 

[Adam the Waster]

1 minute ago, bdubyah said:

Just throwing out there that I would absolutely love for item degradation to make a return. I understand there would be complications with shrinking mod slots but I feel like it would be worth the trouble. 

i would like that or allow us to using weapon parts to repair Said weapon! 

 

 

aside from making guns they have no other uses!

 

now maybe stuff like melee weapons like the machete, steel club, and knuckles could go under (steel weapon parts) so it can make some room for other items!

 

idk i inhaling spores *cough* 

[pregnable]

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

 

Well, the items have random stats, so finding a second of the same type might be better, or you might give it to someone in multiplayer. 

 

Then there are legendary weapons and items which will be around later, which probably also have random stats...

 

At the point where you are getting lots of dupe items you do not want, you can sell them for money.  I do not think this game really needs degradation again to try and mimic an mmo where there is always that grind for better gear so you can grind more for better gear. 

 

If that is really ruining the game for you long term, and is all there is to play for, you are probably done with the game in general lel. 

 

 

I can tell you I personally hated item degradation the way it was before, to the point where I would only use items I could craft and would never repair anything.  It also made me lose interest in the game and I did not play it as much, if at all. 

 

Just reminds me of the days when the forum was in charge of balance and we ended up with all guns being really hard to find and make while at the same time all being way worse than the starter bow. 

[FileMachete]

1 minute ago, Jay_ombie said:

Ahh the Trigger broom scenario.  

 

Same Broom for years, just changed the brush a few times as well as the stick.

heh heh, yeah, pretty much

While I guess it's easier to code a limited number of Repairs, then the item is just done, it just feels wrong to me. But I like to fix & make things, and was born when that was just what folks did.

[bloodmoth13]

7 hours ago, madmole said:

 

This is a first pass at a primitive stage and all loot/trader rewards/etc will be tuned more in the future. We'll add pipe weapons so primitive play period helps all players get a primitive weapon of their specialization. It doesn't suck though, you can find purple cloth armor pretty fast, which is actually quite nice if you want to run full speed with no penalties, have 4 mod slots and get a bit of protection because that is your style. It sucks because you were spoiled with no primitive stage before, and weak sauce bears that stun locked when shot and they couldn't even get close to you let alone cause a problem. It was meals on wheels and it had to change. If you want safe food, farm, not go bear hunting.

I really like the primitive stage personally, and i enjoy looting high quality low tier weapons, but i have to agree that looting pipe weapons from gun safes just seems really off and disappointing.

 

I think a compromise would be looting more gun parts at lower gear stages, you wont be able to use them till you get a workbench anyway, preserving the relevance of pipe weapons, but it would feel a lot more satisfying saving up decent gun parts for when you can build them.

 

Currently by the time you are getting gun parts you are already getting guns, so the parts are only useful when you get to the point where you can craft high quality versions of those weapons. i might be tempted to craft a quality 2/3 pistol if i have a few gun parts lying around and havent looted any guns yet.

[JaxTeller718]

2 hours ago, Kattla said:

Only a solution to an imaginary problem , but that is only my opinion. For who was it a problem?

In singleplayer there is the option to turn horde/zombies off, and in multiplayer one can just log off, hoping someone don't have start driving back to horde base at 21:59. Maybe it save some server clockcycles though, but that's about it.

For who was it a problem?

 

For the devs, you know the people who have every single right to make rules in the game THEY CREATED. If devs say no outrunning horde, you dont outrun it. You dont like it guess what, there are these things called options that so many people love to point out to people. Turn them off.

[bdubyah]

12 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

i would like that or allow us to using weapon parts to repair Said weapon! 

 

 

aside from making guns they have no other uses!

 

now maybe stuff like melee weapons like the machete, steel club, and knuckles could go under (steel weapon parts) so it can make some room for other items!

 

idk i inhaling spores *cough* 

Yeah, giving the parts another use as a repair item would be good, but I doubt that would happen since they streamlined everything to use repair kits. 

[STyK_]

What are the chances of making it so you can't stand on cloth objects? Like tents, trying to do so it breaks and you fall though.

[Kattla]

8 minutes ago, JaxTeller718 said:

For who was it a problem?

 

For the devs, you know the people who have every single right to make rules in the game THEY CREATED. If devs say no outrunning horde, you dont outrun it. You dont like it guess what, there are these things called options that so many people love to point out to people. Turn them off.

Yes, there is already an option for horde or not. And that is why i do not see there is a problem needing to be solved in additional ways. If harder difficulties came with horde settings greyed out, i could understand it, but as it is now, i just can't.

[Phoenixshade35]

The item degradation talks are reminding me of dying light, i always had to find and mod new weapons, it sucks but at the same time was awesome cause i always had to use different weapons and develop a love for each and master them all, when it comes to repairing we could also have it for using parts to repair, so they don't go to waste, and if we added an upgrading table we could have the chance of upgrading or downgrading an item, all based on luck or a perk.

 

On the flipside we could also have it so that with crafting we can craft all 6 tier items, but have it also have a chance to craft something subpar, so when repairing if it loses quality, we might be able to craft another level 6 or it could come out as a level 1 if you suck in that certain crafting tier, food for thought, i like the idea of sometimes failing at repairing or crafting, adds more to a game in my opinion

[pregnable]

I do not get the want for degrading items.  It is just another way of putting an mmo loot treadmill in the game. 

 

The end game should be survival, horde tower defense and bandits.  Granted a lot of that is not finished yet. 

 

We already have food, ammo, repairs, fuel, and whatever base resources to farm... so I do not feel like we need weapons degrading and breaking like everything is made of paper. 

 

Sounds like we just need more difficult special zombies to destroy your bases so you can complain about how OP they are instead. 

[Pegasus]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

 I understand what you're saying, Roland, and you do have a point.  But all this discussion is about balancing end game ... and would make the beginning game a nightmare. You finally find a lower tier gun ... and because it is lower tier it has a really low durability stat ... so it breaks ... and when you repair it it becomes an even lower tier gun.  That just turns the entire starting game into an unfun nightmare slog through the muck.

 

I remember durability ... and parts ... and all the other things that are being suggested again.  There's a reason they were removed in the first place.  If you want tool and weapon durability again ... play an earlier version where it was still a thing.  I think maybe 17 ... or was it 16?

 

And how many people, besides hard core players, ever make it to the end game anyway?  You're a modder ... isn't it possible to mod something like this into the game for those who want it?  (That's a serious question ... as far as I'm concerned all modding is magic or voodoo.)  I know there is (or was) a mod out there that actually brought back the gun parts ... so I'd think if you could bring back gun parts you could bring back degradation somehow?  Or, mod it so that guns aren't repairable at all ... that'd make every gun you found extra special.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

1 minute ago, Pegasus said:

 I understand what you're saying, Roland, and you do have a point.  But all this discussion is about balancing end game ... and would make the beginning game a nightmare. You finally find a lower tier gun ... and because it is lower tier it has a really low durability stat ... so it breaks ... and when you repair it it becomes an even lower tier gun.  That just turns the entire starting game into an unfun nightmare slog through the muck.

 

I remember durability ... and parts ... and all the other things that are being suggested again.  There's a reason they were removed in the first place.  If you want tool and weapon durability again ... play an earlier version where it was still a thing.  I think maybe 17 ... or was it 16?

 

And how many people, besides hard core players, ever make it to the end game anyway?  You're a modder ... isn't it possible to mod something like this into the game for those who want it?  (That's a serious question ... as far as I'm concerned all modding is magic or voodoo.)  I know there is (or was) a mod out there that actually brought back the gun parts ... so I'd think if you could bring back gun parts you could bring back degradation somehow?

 

When it comes to your gun comment, what if it did not lose the tier 1 durability?  maybe it just takes more than 1 repair kit to fix it all the way up, that would solve somewhat the early game blues, sure u might need 3 stones to fix your ax, but its still available, what would u think of that?

[MechanicalLens]

8 hours ago, madmole said:

We have talked about perma degradation but I'm not sure it would be fun replacing your gear constantly (which means swapping all your mods, dye), and when you finally got a legendary purple when those come out, to see it degrade away and become useless over time might suck. Imagine spending 90k dukes on a gyro and then you have to buy another one because it cannot be repaired any more times.

Not to mention that if even pipe weapons were non-repairable, would it really add anything to the game? A couple infinitely repairable primitive weapons in your hotbar vs hoarding as many as you could. Just my thoughts.

[Pegasus]

4 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

When it comes to your gun comment, what if it did not lose the tier 1 durability?  maybe it just takes more than 1 repair kit to fix it all the way up, that would solve somewhat the early game blues, sure u might need 3 stones to fix your ax, but its still available, what would u think of that?

I think folks are trying to get something put back in that was taken out for a reason and that I absolutely hated the first time around and probably wouldn't like any more the second time around.

 

But I also think that it's not my call and the pimps will do what they think is best for the game.

 

But remember this ... your beloved motorcycle or gyrocopter will also become useless under this new system.  Madmole said that it's all or nothing.  Do you really want to have to rebuild your transportation from scratch every few game days?

[Phoenixshade35]

Just now, Pegasus said:

I think folks are trying to get something put back in that was taken out for a reason and that I absolutely hated the first time around and probably wouldn't like any more the second time around.

 

But I also think that it's not my call and the pimps will do what they think is best for the game.

 

But remember this ... your beloved motorcycle or gyrocopter will also become useless under this new system.  Madmole said that it's all or nothing.

personally im fine with that. if i have to craft them all over again it would not bug me in the slightest given later game the parts are easy enough to obtain with the right perks taken, i just have a lot of level 6 stuff and no point in keeping it, i play solo so this is a single player perspective thing from me mind you, it could also be an option to have item degradation turned on or off, to suit the player in their own right, that way servers could have it on or off, that way no harm or foul.

 

its like with fallout 4, i hated that only the power armor can break, i miss being in the middle of battle and having my weapon break and need to be repaired, now they never break, and that gets boring to me, but to each their own right

 

Though i wouldn't mind the random crafting to be a thing, cause then its a roll of the dice what you get.

[Pegasus]

3 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

personally im fine with that. if i have to craft them all over again it would not bug me in the slightest given later game the parts are easy enough to obtain with the right perks taken, i just have a lot of level 6 stuff and no point in keeping it, i play solo so this is a single player perspective thing from me mind you, it could also be an option to have item degradation turned on or off, to suit the player in their own right, that way servers could have it on or off, that way no harm or foul.

 

its like with fallout 4, i hated that only the power armor can break, i miss being in the middle of battle and having my weapon break and need to be repaired, now they never break, and that gets boring to me, but to each their own right

 

Though i wouldn't mind the random crafting to be a thing, cause then its a roll of the dice what you get.

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun breaks instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

[Phoenixshade35]

Just now, Pegasus said:

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun degrades instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

i am talking about end game stuff yes, because there is little to no real endgame going on, and early game with default settings it would not matter much to be honest.

 

yes random stats from crafting, but not random tier levels, it could be interesting to craft your first stone ax and end up randomly with a level 5 stone ax, that would make anybodies day.

 

plus early game does not last very long for the average player, within the first week of looting they would have enough stuff for weapons and tools plus parts it would not matter at all, hence why i said it could be a toggled option as well for those that want that extra challenge, adding options isn't bad, but simply keeping all the same stuff forever, it does get boring after awhile hence why it might be a fun option for those wanting to try something new, like lowering the loot abundance, im currently doing my first 50% run and its a lot harder, it made me rethink how i play and i love that

[MechanicalLens]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

[Phoenixshade35]

2 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

i could get on board with that, sure some would complain that it would mean more looting but..... isn't that what we do anyways when we are done building lol