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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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7 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

So I died a bit ago, looting one of the new Shamway buildings. In the main ground floor area there's a wood plank leading to a lift cage with some cement, cross that to some large vats.

 

I shoveled the cement and the hoist and cage came apart, dropped me and things fell on me wee head and brained me dead.

 

Not playing permadeath so no biggie. Just mentioning it in case it's not supposed to do that?

 

And just in case anyone in the know (devs/mods) happens to know, are some of the chain-hoist+platform with cobb/cement supposed to fall apart when the c/c is shoveled? Or should none of them fail & we should report those that do fail..?

Speaking of the new shameway buildings!

 

 

WTF Happened to the Shameway super market! Looks like a Cruise Missile hit that damn building! it looks cool but i want to know the story!

 

TFP we need LORE!

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Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, EggsAisle said:

Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

 

 

 

 

 

I think random stats have been forgotten from the discussion. Why bother looting searching for a max damage blue M-60 when it's just going to become useless anyways. I

Permanent degradation sort of negates the random stats aspect of the game I think.

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I'll throw in my vote for item degridation. I'll go a step further & say I liked the quality 1-600 of old (however hated the gun parts system....I'm sure this is controversial on its own). 

I liked everytime you repaired something, it lost just a little bit of quality. Wasn't there even a level up to where it didn't degrade as much & you even used less resources?

 

Idk, I liked it & would just add that much more "management" to the game. I'm also fine with the way it is. Love the game regardless.

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I think its best to wait on considering reintroducing degradation back into the game until the majority of end game content is in.

 

Since a core design of the game revolves around time management in preparation for the blood moon hordes, the devs are probably hesitant to add more activities then they already have planned.

 

As a veteran player, I can understand the desire for degradation as it will lengthen the looting game further and thus keep us playing longer.

 

However, if I had to choose between item degreadation and more quest variety, I would choose the latter.  If its possible to mod item degradation back in relatively easily its an even easier decision for the latter.

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50 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

Speaking of the new shameway buildings!

 

 

WTF Happened to the Shameway super market! Looks like a Cruise Missile hit that damn building! it looks cool but i want to know the story!

 

TFP we need LORE!

I would also appreciate some TFP sanctioned lore as well, or at minimum, add in some modding capability it in so I could spawn items/notes/books at a specific POI (or type of POI). Maybe even have a quest send you to that specific POI.

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9 hours ago, Kattla said:

Only a solution to an imaginary problem , but that is only my opinion. For who was it a problem?

In singleplayer there is the option to turn horde/zombies off, and in multiplayer one can just log off, hoping someone don't have start driving back to horde base at 21:59. Maybe it save some server clockcycles though, but that's about it.

It is a problem for those who want a real challenge (probably a fair amount if not majority of players) and being easily safe with exploits removes the incentive to keep playing. I recall playing A16 and was having fun until I was looting too late and had no choice but to sit on a roof top. I threw some spikes down to clog up the stair well and thought I'd be dead for sure, but all they did was spin circles and break a few blocks and make some noise. I quit playing, I thought why would I build a great fort if all you need to do is sit on a roof of an old crusty building. No challenge = no fun for me in any game.

7 hours ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

Delete backpack on death dude. Same basic thing, 0 complaints from people though. Or just remove the repair kit from your game and maybe double the degradation of items. I actually enjoyed rebuilding my stuff when my backpack got removed before we fixed the bug. Or just use no mods, self control like the ppl dead is dead around here, and scrap your stuff when it degrades and let us know how you like it.

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6 hours ago, STyK_ said:

What are the chances of making it so you can't stand on cloth objects? Like tents, trying to do so it breaks and you fall though.

You do realize those are like tarps and pretty thick. The odds are zero because we don't want a bunch of stability bugs for something that doesn't add much value.

6 hours ago, Kattla said:

Yes, there is already an option for horde or not. And that is why i do not see there is a problem needing to be solved in additional ways. If harder difficulties came with horde settings greyed out, i could understand it, but as it is now, i just can't.

Turning off the horde doesn't solve it for those who want a challenge, but don't have the self control to stay off the motorcycle. And they shouldn't have to use self control the game should just murder them in every cheap scenario, until they decide its too much and change the options.

6 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

Not to mention that if even pipe weapons were non-repairable, would it really add anything to the game? A couple infinitely repairable primitive weapons in your hotbar vs hoarding as many as you could. Just my thoughts.

People would just craft/loot more. It would lead to further inventory issues because  you would need multiple guns, tools etc. To me this seems like a great mod for people who love hardcore feel to things, but I don't see it making the default game any better.

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5 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

It is just more crap to confuse players with IMO. Not everyone plays the game long games like you guys do, most people wouldn't even notice it because they just upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.... then they are end game and quit or restart. I don't actually repair my stuff that much, I replace it after about 1 or 2 repairs max. I don't know the exact number of times, but most of my repair kits go to items I find and I repair them to sell them for max xp and dukes. I don't think repair comes into play except on horde nights or lengthy mining sessions. Maybe early game that lame stone axe needs repaired often... but I could just as well craft another, and often I do, because I level, and craft all new stone tools, clubs etc. Repair isn't something we actually do that much. By the time my armor is shot, I have new stuff. Repair isn't really a big part of the game, so I don't think it is worth bothering with. It wouldn't really change the experience that much IMO.

 

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13 minutes ago, madmole said:

You do realize those are like tarps and pretty thick. The odds are zero because we don't want a bunch of stability bugs for something that doesn't add much value.

Ok was weighing whether how I did the survivors sites was cheesy and thought of that but if it its thick tarps I feel better about it.

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Random encounters could be really fun, if they are not too much work to do. 

 

They were fun in like fallout 2 where you would just run across a scripted map randomly somewhere with like startrek @%$*#! or the Café of Broken Dreams.

 

The 3d fallouts did it in like set locations, but 7 days could actually do it and have a random POI spawn or something, very much like fallout 2. 

 

Not sure how you would work it with weird ones and not having them repeat... would probably mostly stick to bandit type things that do not matter if they repeat.  Things that makes sense. 

 

I think you guys were talking about doing that with some of the vehicle breakdowns.  Could be cool.

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5 hours ago, Pegasus said:

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

 

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

They can try until they are blue in the face we aren't changing it, even if I personally loved the idea and I don't. I'd rather just play with delete backpack on death myself, than to be constantly playing change my mods out tetris because my stuff wears out. I don't have 10 minutes to swap all my crap out, the horde is coming. Repair is meant to be an inconvenience at the worst time If you try to be stingy on your repair kits, not a full on simulation.

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<Looks over the quality degradation discussion, tosses in a couple reactions, remembers personal experiences with the rng system, looks back at the discussion>

I don't think those who are in support of this really understand the rng driven, mental/emotional strain inducing hell they're asking to bring (back?) into the game. Though I do see some irony in a mod maker being a driving force behind the suggestion.

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47 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I think its best to wait on considering reintroducing degradation back into the game until the majority of end game content is in.

 

Since a core design of the game revolves around time management in preparation for the blood moon hordes, the devs are probably hesitant to add more activities then they already have planned.

 

As a veteran player, I can understand the desire for degradation as it will lengthen the looting game further and thus keep us playing longer.

 

However, if I had to choose between item degreadation and more quest variety, I would choose the latter.  If its possible to mod item degradation back in relatively easily its an even easier decision for the latter.

Guys can just make the repair item whatever parts it is made from in a mod. Have fun lugging around 20 booger pickers to repair your stuff. Personally I think it might be kind of interesting, but since it is time management I think it interferes with new accomplishments a player could be working towards. Oh crap my pants broke, now I need to craft new pants and transplant 4 mods. A full set of armor with 4 mods each? It is probably upwards of 100 clicks to get the materials, craft the stuff, uninstall all the mods from the broken armor, and reinstall to the new armor, and then equip. Its just a bunch of pointless clicking with very little "fun factor". How rewarding is it to use up your parts in your parts bin? We could always do crits on guns and you need a random part, like we are planning for vehicles.

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11 minutes ago, madmole said:

Oh crap my pants broke, now I need to craft new pants and transplant 4 mods.

That was one thing I am very grateful that got changed; I thought the same damn thing: "Oh noes my damn [shirt,bandana,shoes,pants] broke, gotta take them off repair them and put them back on" (or craft new ones lol) was really silly. Now that we can put mods in them... that would have sucked.

 

Something I've noticed: repair kits frequently drop out of boxes in 20+ stacks on normal loot % and they're dirt cheap to make now, just a balancing thing I noticed.

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1 hour ago, madmole said:

let us know how you like it.

I did let you know. I like it. I played with degradation in earlier alphas and I liked it. I do play delete all on death and I like it.

 

Doubling the durability of everything and disabling repair might be an interesting idea I'd be willing to try. Throwing away stuff willingly is okay but just like death is death there is a big difference in the feel of it when you know you're not in control. It's not that I can't do it but when the universe created by the game is in charge instead of me it changes it. You must know what I'm talking about since you want to add a death is death option into the game eventually.

 

I can do all those those things and have done them but I don't need to do them to "see if it's fun". I already know that it is.

40 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Though I do see some irony in a mod maker being a driving force behind the suggestion.

Mod makers need hooks to make the mods-- at least those of us who are limited to xml edits. Modding out is always easier than modding in. I'd rather see an inoccuous version added that isn't offensive to anyone. THEN those who are going to be offended by anything can mod it out and those of us who want it even more impactful CAN mod it to be so. But it sounds like Madmole has categorized the whole idea as sharp sticks. If I'm a driving force behind this suggestion then he is the mass of bloodmoon vultures stopping me in my tracks. :)

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58 minutes ago, madmole said:

It is just more crap to confuse players with IMO. Not everyone plays the game long games like you guys do, most people wouldn't even notice it because they just upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.... then they are end game and quit or restart. I don't actually repair my stuff that much, I replace it after about 1 or 2 repairs max. I don't know the exact number of times, but most of my repair kits go to items I find and I repair them to sell them for max xp and dukes. I don't think repair comes into play except on horde nights or lengthy mining sessions. Maybe early game that lame stone axe needs repaired often... but I could just as well craft another, and often I do, because I level, and craft all new stone tools, clubs etc. Repair isn't something we actually do that much. By the time my armor is shot, I have new stuff. Repair isn't really a big part of the game, so I don't think it is worth bothering with. It wouldn't really change the experience that much IMO.

 

Agreed, some form of item degradation would be fantastic... as a mod. For vanilla, agreed, it would just be some nonsense fluff for a lot of players. When someone orders a chocolate cake, you don't put some pumpkin-flavored icing on top in the hopes that they'd like that; if they're lucky, they'd be a separate menu for that, if you get my analogy.

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2 hours ago, pregnable said:

You sure are jumpy today... did a Dev show you a really good working zipline design and then delete it right in front of you?  lel

No...But we all have those beloved old features that got cut. I was under the impression it might have a chance of returning in some form but alas I'm on the opposite side of Madmole on this one. <shrug> I'll live. I'll take a look at possibly increasing overall durability but disabling repair. Not sure how much of a PITA that would be. I do enjoy Delete All on Death so maybe that will have to be the representation of entropy in the game for me. :)

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2 hours ago, FileMachete said:

So I died a bit ago, looting one of the new Shamway buildings. In the main ground floor area there's a wood plank leading to a lift cage with some cement, cross that to some large vats.

 

I shoveled the cement and the hoist and cage came apart, dropped me and things fell on me wee head and brained me dead.

 

Not playing permadeath so no biggie. Just mentioning it in case it's not supposed to do that?

 

And just in case anyone in the know (devs/mods) happens to know, are some of the chain-hoist+platform with cobb/cement supposed to fall apart when the c/c is shoveled? Or should none of them fail & we should report those that do fail..?

The one at the farm does the same. Intended.

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6 hours ago, Vechs said:

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

I'm not sure how I feel about a stone axe that talks smack and judges my performance.

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40 minutes ago, Roland said:

No...But we all have those beloved old features that got cut. I was under the impression it might have a chance of returning in some form but alas I'm on the opposite side of Madmole on this one. <shrug> I'll live. I'll take a look at possibly increasing overall durability but disabling repair. Not sure how much of a PITA that would be. I do enjoy Delete All on Death so maybe that will have to be the representation of entropy in the game for me. :)

All you need for disabling item repair is to take out the RepairTools but for vehicles you'd have to take out the repair kits.

3 hours ago, FileMachete said:

So I died a bit ago, looting one of the new Shamway buildings. In the main ground floor area there's a wood plank leading to a lift cage with some cement, cross that to some large vats.

 

I shoveled the cement and the hoist and cage came apart, dropped me and things fell on me wee head and brained me dead.

Sounds like a rusty chain. 😃

 

I mean... did that really look trustworthy to you?

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Roland, I like the idea Madmole came up with.

We could remove the repair kit's recipe in the xml.

You would still find some in loot or at the traders, but you'd think twice about repairing something now.

You can fine tune it by making it more or less scarce and/or expensive.

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For me I like simplification of the Assets in games. Permanent degradation then break would be one thing plus
No repair. But ite would also need a balance or compliment, Similar to Crysis 3. As you fight Npcs have vaiable
vaiable weapons pre-equipped with custom mods already installed. All you do is add bullets and attitude.

 

The only part that ever seemed out of place was and is the ego additive. An AK is an AK, The grains are still
the same, the things that change the ability of the weapon are the mods. The color coding should only regulate
the amount of possible mods added, and the use quality. Ive always been contemt finding a weapon period. "In a
survival game" the rest is superfluous.

 

I find or make a club, thats better than my hands, then i find or make a bow thats has the advantage of distance,
the compound has the advantage of strength but uses more stamina as a tradeoff. A pistol has power but attracts
attention. Rifle types have range and auto re-fire. ETC.

 

The zombies don't increase in strength just in quantity of spawn rate, the balance is pema deg and an it is what
it is weapon. You scavenge with you 30% weapon, and save your 100% for the horde. When it gets low it becomes your
scavenge weapon the other is scrapped or sold, and you hunt for another high durability horde weapon.

"Monkey Wrench additive" would be the durability bar is invisble and the title is Ak47, That would definitely
tighten the sphincter when playing.

 

References COD Zombie each weapon has its own attribute but is limited use, Crysis 3 premodded weapons abound,
Pre 19 7dtd, club iron spiked barbed club, Dying Light Crazy specialty perma mods quick degradation avter the
first few upgrades no anguish just play.

 

Fortunately these changes are still allowed for personal satisfaction. You can Negan up the traders a bit, to
increase the game survival factor, EX: quests: you need to get them inordinate amounts of clothes food weapons
etc. Within a time limit say 6 days, or Luceal speaks up. You can make your own bullets, well Neganistic Joel
needs a ton.

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18 hours ago, madmole said:

We have talked about perma degradation but I'm not sure it would be fun replacing your gear constantly (which means swapping all your mods, dye), and when you finally got a legendary purple when those come out, to see it degrade away and become useless over time might suck. Imagine spending 90k dukes on a gyro and then you have to buy another one because it cannot be repaired any more times.

I sort of touched on this in another thread but it would be a shame to write off item degradation because it creates a bit of an end game loop that could encourage the player to go out and explore the world and loot long term.

If your gear doesn't sustain it's Q6 status then players will always be actively looking to find replacements, whether it's the item itself or parts or both depending on the system and how it works. Either that or a system that allows you to upgrade your gear to a higher quality level if it does degrade. This could have been expanded with books and schematics that maybe taught you to do a better job of it and allowed you to reach better quality levels or that allowed you to repair for longer without losing quality. 


 

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