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The item degradation talks are reminding me of dying light, i always had to find and mod new weapons, it sucks but at the same time was awesome cause i always had to use different weapons and develop a love for each and master them all, when it comes to repairing we could also have it for using parts to repair, so they don't go to waste, and if we added an upgrading table we could have the chance of upgrading or downgrading an item, all based on luck or a perk.

 

On the flipside we could also have it so that with crafting we can craft all 6 tier items, but have it also have a chance to craft something subpar, so when repairing if it loses quality, we might be able to craft another level 6 or it could come out as a level 1 if you suck in that certain crafting tier, food for thought, i like the idea of sometimes failing at repairing or crafting, adds more to a game in my opinion

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I do not get the want for degrading items.  It is just another way of putting an mmo loot treadmill in the game. 

 

The end game should be survival, horde tower defense and bandits.  Granted a lot of that is not finished yet. 

 

We already have food, ammo, repairs, fuel, and whatever base resources to farm... so I do not feel like we need weapons degrading and breaking like everything is made of paper. 

 

Sounds like we just need more difficult special zombies to destroy your bases so you can complain about how OP they are instead. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

 I understand what you're saying, Roland, and you do have a point.  But all this discussion is about balancing end game ... and would make the beginning game a nightmare. You finally find a lower tier gun ... and because it is lower tier it has a really low durability stat ... so it breaks ... and when you repair it it becomes an even lower tier gun.  That just turns the entire starting game into an unfun nightmare slog through the muck.

 

I remember durability ... and parts ... and all the other things that are being suggested again.  There's a reason they were removed in the first place.  If you want tool and weapon durability again ... play an earlier version where it was still a thing.  I think maybe 17 ... or was it 16?

 

And how many people, besides hard core players, ever make it to the end game anyway?  You're a modder ... isn't it possible to mod something like this into the game for those who want it?  (That's a serious question ... as far as I'm concerned all modding is magic or voodoo.)  I know there is (or was) a mod out there that actually brought back the gun parts ... so I'd think if you could bring back gun parts you could bring back degradation somehow?  Or, mod it so that guns aren't repairable at all ... that'd make every gun you found extra special.

 

Edited by Pegasus (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, Pegasus said:

 I understand what you're saying, Roland, and you do have a point.  But all this discussion is about balancing end game ... and would make the beginning game a nightmare. You finally find a lower tier gun ... and because it is lower tier it has a really low durability stat ... so it breaks ... and when you repair it it becomes an even lower tier gun.  That just turns the entire starting game into an unfun nightmare slog through the muck.

 

I remember durability ... and parts ... and all the other things that are being suggested again.  There's a reason they were removed in the first place.  If you want tool and weapon durability again ... play an earlier version where it was still a thing.  I think maybe 17 ... or was it 16?

 

And how many people, besides hard core players, ever make it to the end game anyway?  You're a modder ... isn't it possible to mod something like this into the game for those who want it?  (That's a serious question ... as far as I'm concerned all modding is magic or voodoo.)  I know there is (or was) a mod out there that actually brought back the gun parts ... so I'd think if you could bring back gun parts you could bring back degradation somehow?

 

When it comes to your gun comment, what if it did not lose the tier 1 durability?  maybe it just takes more than 1 repair kit to fix it all the way up, that would solve somewhat the early game blues, sure u might need 3 stones to fix your ax, but its still available, what would u think of that?

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8 hours ago, madmole said:

We have talked about perma degradation but I'm not sure it would be fun replacing your gear constantly (which means swapping all your mods, dye), and when you finally got a legendary purple when those come out, to see it degrade away and become useless over time might suck. Imagine spending 90k dukes on a gyro and then you have to buy another one because it cannot be repaired any more times.

Not to mention that if even pipe weapons were non-repairable, would it really add anything to the game? A couple infinitely repairable primitive weapons in your hotbar vs hoarding as many as you could. Just my thoughts.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

When it comes to your gun comment, what if it did not lose the tier 1 durability?  maybe it just takes more than 1 repair kit to fix it all the way up, that would solve somewhat the early game blues, sure u might need 3 stones to fix your ax, but its still available, what would u think of that?

I think folks are trying to get something put back in that was taken out for a reason and that I absolutely hated the first time around and probably wouldn't like any more the second time around.

 

But I also think that it's not my call and the pimps will do what they think is best for the game.

 

But remember this ... your beloved motorcycle or gyrocopter will also become useless under this new system.  Madmole said that it's all or nothing.  Do you really want to have to rebuild your transportation from scratch every few game days?

Edited by Pegasus (see edit history)

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Just now, Pegasus said:

I think folks are trying to get something put back in that was taken out for a reason and that I absolutely hated the first time around and probably wouldn't like any more the second time around.

 

But I also think that it's not my call and the pimps will do what they think is best for the game.

 

But remember this ... your beloved motorcycle or gyrocopter will also become useless under this new system.  Madmole said that it's all or nothing.

personally im fine with that. if i have to craft them all over again it would not bug me in the slightest given later game the parts are easy enough to obtain with the right perks taken, i just have a lot of level 6 stuff and no point in keeping it, i play solo so this is a single player perspective thing from me mind you, it could also be an option to have item degradation turned on or off, to suit the player in their own right, that way servers could have it on or off, that way no harm or foul.

 

its like with fallout 4, i hated that only the power armor can break, i miss being in the middle of battle and having my weapon break and need to be repaired, now they never break, and that gets boring to me, but to each their own right

 

Though i wouldn't mind the random crafting to be a thing, cause then its a roll of the dice what you get.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

personally im fine with that. if i have to craft them all over again it would not bug me in the slightest given later game the parts are easy enough to obtain with the right perks taken, i just have a lot of level 6 stuff and no point in keeping it, i play solo so this is a single player perspective thing from me mind you, it could also be an option to have item degradation turned on or off, to suit the player in their own right, that way servers could have it on or off, that way no harm or foul.

 

its like with fallout 4, i hated that only the power armor can break, i miss being in the middle of battle and having my weapon break and need to be repaired, now they never break, and that gets boring to me, but to each their own right

 

Though i wouldn't mind the random crafting to be a thing, cause then its a roll of the dice what you get.

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun breaks instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

Edited by Pegasus (see edit history)

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Just now, Pegasus said:

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun degrades instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

i am talking about end game stuff yes, because there is little to no real endgame going on, and early game with default settings it would not matter much to be honest.

 

yes random stats from crafting, but not random tier levels, it could be interesting to craft your first stone ax and end up randomly with a level 5 stone ax, that would make anybodies day.

 

plus early game does not last very long for the average player, within the first week of looting they would have enough stuff for weapons and tools plus parts it would not matter at all, hence why i said it could be a toggled option as well for those that want that extra challenge, adding options isn't bad, but simply keeping all the same stuff forever, it does get boring after awhile hence why it might be a fun option for those wanting to try something new, like lowering the loot abundance, im currently doing my first 50% run and its a lot harder, it made me rethink how i play and i love that

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

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2 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

i could get on board with that, sure some would complain that it would mean more looting but..... isn't that what we do anyways when we are done building lol

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20 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun breaks instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

 

Yeah, the end game is not even done yet.  Sounds like people are trying to solve a problem that does not really even exist that is related to the end game not being finished. 

 

The older builds with all the stuff in it were not as fun and were probably not as popular for a reason. 

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3 minutes ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah, the end game is not even done yet.  Sounds like people are trying to solve a problem that does not really even exist that is related to the end game not being finished. 

 

The older builds with all the stuff in it were not as fun and were probably not as popular for a reason. 

but adding things for the end game will help with the life of the game, no one complained about stuff degrading before, cause you could always combine parts to make your weapon/tool/armor better as it got weaker from use, i do miss that, it made it so worth while to keep all those parts, where as now im sitting on over 100 motor tool parts and nothing to do with them cause i got a level 6 impact wrench, an auger and chainsaw, so this discussion also helps with that stuff too

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

 

What you say is fair enough. If you had a durability of 100 and it lost a point or 2 of durability each repair I could deal with that. I do not want to have to find a new weapon each horde night though.

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10 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

I could see this with vehicles too. My suggestion would be each tire, engine, battery, and chassis all degrade separately based on their quality. Each part could be replaced individually so to make it easier to keep it working.

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15 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

but adding things for the end game will help with the life of the game, no one complained about stuff degrading before, cause you could always combine parts to make your weapon/tool/armor better as it got weaker from use, i do miss that, it made it so worth while to keep all those parts, where as now im sitting on over 100 motor tool parts and nothing to do with them cause i got a level 6 impact wrench, an auger and chainsaw, so this discussion also helps with that stuff too

I hated degrading before.  I probably complained about it, but I do not remember heh. 

 

I think I stopped playing for a while when the game was like that, cause like I said, the forum was balancing things and we ended up with the starter bow being better than all of the guns in the game. 

 

I would honestly rather have pooping, peeing and having to brush my teeth and go to the dentist in game before item degrading, cause at least that would be so stupid it would be funny and kinda amusing. 

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5 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

but adding things for the end game will help with the life of the game, no one complained about stuff degrading before, cause you could always combine parts to make your weapon/tool/armor better as it got weaker from use, i do miss that, it made it so worth while to keep all those parts, where as now im sitting on over 100 motor tool parts and nothing to do with them cause i got a level 6 impact wrench, an auger and chainsaw, so this discussion also helps with that stuff too

With having to constantly make new weapons, tools, armor, and vehicles you should be able to scrap anything completely worn out for more parts. It makes sense from a realistic point of view and makes it easier to replace broken items.

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2 minutes ago, falloutcloud said:

With having to constantly make new weapons, tools, armor, and vehicles you should be able to scrap anything completely worn out for more parts. It makes sense from a realistic point of view and makes it easier to replace broken items.

yeah, adding realism to extend gameplay isnt a bad thing if the realism is dulled back a bit, like imagine taking the machete, power attacking, and now its stuck id edgars torso, ur out that weapon for a min lol, lets not add that into the game as funny as it could be

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Just now, Phoenixshade35 said:

yeah, adding realism to extend gameplay isnt a bad thing if the realism is dulled back a bit, like imagine taking the machete, power attacking, and now its stuck id edgars torso, ur out that weapon for a min lol, lets not add that into the game as funny as it could be

Hence why I posted my suggestion above regarding item degradation. :) It wouldn't be obnoxious by any means, but you wouldn't be able to infinitely use x item. Maybe after a dozen or so repairs, you'll want to replace that purple Desert Vulture with that other purple Desert Vulture in your inventory. The trick is to make it an impactful mechanic without, again, making the player agitated that they have to horde a dozen of each gear type and having to switch them constantly, while also just shrugging it off and barely replacing anything. (It would probably have to be catered to suit each gear piece; you'll be repairing augers and other tools far more often than armor, for example.)

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1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

Hence why I posted my suggestion above regarding item degradation. :) It wouldn't be obnoxious by any means, but you wouldn't be able to infinitely use x item. Maybe after a dozen or so repairs, you'll want to replace that purple Desert Vulture with that other purple Desert Vulture in your inventory. The trick is to make it an impactful mechanic without, again, making the player agitated that they have to horde a dozen of each gear type and having to switch them constantly, while also just shrugging it off and barely replacing anything. (It would probably have to be catered to suit each gear piece; you'll be repairing augers and other tools far more often than armor, for example.)

oh i agree, it would need careful implementation, thats why i also suggested an option to toggle it, could also have values if toggled on for how much degrading happens, could end up with quite the difficult yet exhilarating gameplay, id be holding onto my tools a lot longer thats for sure, it is something i feel the game is lacking in a sense, they could also kinda have it like dying light where each weapon has a certain number of repairs before she is busted, then u could attempt a repair and it might end up with you only having parts, leading to my random crafting levels idea, where you could craft a level 6 item, or it could come out as a level 3, either one could make interesting gameplay, could even have it with each repair that level 6 steel pickaxe might become a level 5 the more u repair it

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32 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun breaks instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

Yeah, kinda reminds me of a post a day or two ago, someone talking about how he dbl dipped on poi quest resets all the time and how he found them to be boring and a cheat, and wanted them took out...

ok... then just don't do that.

Or how nerd poling should be taken out..

Again, if you don't like it, nobody's twisting your arm to do it..

Or how people want the game so much harder to play because death is no big deal..

Ok, erase your save when you die...

This degradation thing is the same thing, and your suggestion is spot on.

If you want that, throw whatever it is away instead of repairing it..

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Posted (edited)

In fact, i agree with all opinions regarding the degradation of items.

There are different mechanics in the game - there are those that are bad and good.... sometimes they are just unfinished. Someone against, someone for...

One thing is important to understand - will be no gameplay without game mechanics.

Therefore, i believe that when something is simply removed without bringing a replacement - it always means emptying the game.

It is naive to believe that you can just come up with game mechanics that don't need to be adjusted/balanced. 

But, even "bad" mechanics can be configured so that it will work.

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)
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44 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

Having played a game with almost this setup, to me it wasn't fun. And there's a kind of bad unintended consequence; players will try to conserve the repairs and wind up either needing to pack extra bits they wouldn't otherwise, or they'll likely wind up in a scrum and have their weapon stop working at just the worst time.

 

There is a way around those. Rather than tying End of Life &/or Degradation directly to number of Repairs, tie them to a 'master durability' number instead. So if a player perfers to repair every morning before leaving base, go for it, it won't speed up when their weapon breaks/degrades.

 

Imo that would really minimize the daily annoyance factor.

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Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

 

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

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31 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

oh i agree, it would need careful implementation, thats why i also suggested an option to toggle it, could also have values if toggled on for how much degrading happens, could end up with quite the difficult yet exhilarating gameplay, id be holding onto my tools a lot longer thats for sure, it is something i feel the game is lacking in a sense, they could also kinda have it like dying light where each weapon has a certain number of repairs before she is busted, then u could attempt a repair and it might end up with you only having parts, leading to my random crafting levels idea, where you could craft a level 6 item, or it could come out as a level 3, either one could make interesting gameplay, could even have it with each repair that level 6 steel pickaxe might become a level 5 the more u repair it

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

1 minute ago, Pegasus said:

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

 

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

Just to make my point clear, I'm not advocating for anything here. I'm merely spitballing. If my ideas are inherently flawed, then I see no issue with that conclusion.

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