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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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6 hours ago, madmole said:

Turning off the horde doesn't solve it for those who want a challenge, but don't have the self control to stay off the motorcycle. And they shouldn't have to use self control the game should just murder them in every cheap scenario, until they decide its too much and change the options.

Players would find riding out the horde night to not be a challenge, and try out another way the next time. Players who genuinly want a challenge will find it, be it by method, option or mod/modlet. For players wanting a challenge, riding out the horde night was never a problem, since they'd choose more challenging methods in the first place.

 

Beeing chased up on a rooftop and quit the game because a simple trick fooled the zombies. And afterwards introduce a system that makes the zombies ten times easier to fool around, not to mention making every POI like a fortified gun, tool and food store. And very often place those high value items high up.. Perhaps it was not a lack of challenge that caused the flying Dumbos, hmmm? 🤭

 

Well, that explain why someone said the reason for flying Dumbos was the some of the devs having a problem. My apology to that person, i think i might have overlooked his deeper logic😌. I apology, Jax. And no, i am neutral on the vultures attacking player-ridden vehicles on horde night, i just did not see a logic in it.

 

I think i gonna let this dead horse rest though. Much funnier beating (un)dead bears.

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For brevity, I'll forego quoting 15 posts.

 

I'm with @Roland. I'm a big fan of item degradation.  I would favor a system where, when you repair an item, it simply degrades in quality by 1 level.  So your Q6 iron axe turns into a Q5 iron axe when you repair it.  "Gah, that's such a severe loss to be occurring all the time!" I imagine some saying.  Except you can still have fine control over how severe this is, by adjusting the durability.  Some have said they don't want to have to replace their stuff every horde night, or every few days.  And I wouldn't have it that way, either.  I'd adjust durability as needed so that a Q6 item lasts for a reasonable amount of time with typical use.

 

Removing one of the installed mods that the item can no longer support because its quality is reduced is an issue, but it's not an insurmountable one.  In spite of @Pegasus's claim, I don't think the game's ever had both degradation and mod slots determined by quality.  Even if it did, we've seen a lot of changes since then.  Significantly, a Q1 gun doesn't suck the way it used to.  I may be sad I don't have something better, but a Q1 pistol is still useful to me.  So a Q6 item can last you a long time, even if only part of its lifetime is as Q6.  And importantly, I would have a Q1 item stay a Q1 item after repair.  So no worries about your weapon breaking beyond repair at a bad time, or ever.  You could always repair it with a repair kit, as you can now.  Then it wouldn't affect the early game at all, and it would play differently than 'delete all on death'.

 

Also, it doesn't have to be permanent degradation.  Building on @Adam the Waster and @Morloc's points, you could use extra parts to improve the quality of an item (this could be gated).  This could scratch an itch for people like me, that thought the workbench's combine feature was great but just needed fleshing out.  It's also in line with the rest of the game, where higher quality items already require more parts to craft.  In fact since degradation means using more resources overall, the extra parts required to craft higher quality items could be nerfed to compensate.  That's something I'd like to see anyway, since it sucks to spend a skill point and price yourself out of being able to craft the item at all.

 

Advantages of this design:

  • Makes what you can craft matter more.  Because currently, if you find a high quality widget, you never have to worry about finding the schematic to make another one.
  • Makes your tool crafting quality matter more.  Because you would have a reason to learn to craft Q4 widgets, even after you'd looted a Q4 widget.
  • Makes late game looting matter more.  Because the need for replacements would be an incentive to keep looting & doing quests.  Call it a burden or a loot treadmill if you want, but isn't the game better when there are more practical reasons to do quests over the whole course of your game?
  • Makes finding duplicates matter more.  Because currently, duplicates for high quality items are useless. You pawn them straight off to the trader, or you throw them in a chest if you're a hoarder.
  • Makes durability more meaningful.  Because currently, there's no thought involved once you're out of the early game and repair kits are plentiful.  Repairing just means click a button, with no consequences.
  • Potentially lessens the need for higher quality crafting to require more parts.  Because you'd be using more parts to restore/improve the quality of your existing items instead. 
  • Potentially lessens the need to enforce a primitive age where higher tier/higher quality items are unattainable.  Because it's more feasible to find good things early, if they'll only buoy you above your level temporarily.

 

And finally, to the 'if you don't like it don't do it' crowd... No!  It's a survival game.  It's even a survival game first according to @madmole today (thanks for clarifying that).  Self-imposed restrictions in-game, like throwing things away or pretending certain advantages don't exist, are luxuries: luxuries which ruin the sense that you are trying to survive.  And it'd be nice if you could mod in degradation, but I don't think you could - not with xml modding anyway.  I'm not aware of any hooks to set a change in quality when the repair is performed.

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19 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

For brevity, I'll forego quoting 15 posts.

 

I'm with @Roland. I'm a big fan of item degradation.  I would favor a system where, when you repair an item, it simply degrades in quality by 1 level.  So your Q6 iron axe turns into a Q5 iron axe when you repair it.  "Gah, that's such a severe loss to be occurring all the time!" I imagine some saying.  Except you can still have fine control over how severe this is, by adjusting the durability.  Some have said they don't want to have to replace their stuff every horde night, or every few days.  And I wouldn't have it that way, either.  I'd adjust durability as needed so that a Q6 item lasts for a reasonable amount of time with typical use.

 

Removing one of the installed mods that the item can no longer support because its quality is reduced is an issue, but it's not an insurmountable one.  In spite of @Pegasus's claim, I don't think the game's ever had both degradation and mod slots determined by quality.  Even if it did, we've seen a lot of changes since then.  Significantly, a Q1 gun doesn't suck the way it used to.  I may be sad I don't have something better, but a Q1 pistol is still useful to me.  So a Q6 item can last you a long time, even if only part of its lifetime is as Q6.  And importantly, I would have a Q1 item stay a Q1 item after repair.  So no worries about your weapon breaking beyond repair at a bad time, or ever.  You could always repair it with a repair kit, as you can now.  Then it wouldn't affect the early game at all, and it would play differently than 'delete all on death'.

 

Also, it doesn't have to be permanent degradation.  Building on @Adam the Waster and @Morloc's points, you could use extra parts to improve the quality of an item (this could be gated).  This could scratch an itch for people like me, that thought the workbench's combine feature was great but just needed fleshing out.  It's also in line with the rest of the game, where higher quality items already require more parts to craft.  In fact since degradation means using more resources overall, the extra parts required to craft higher quality items could be nerfed to compensate.  That's something I'd like to see anyway, since it sucks to spend a skill point and price yourself out of being able to craft the item at all.

 

Advantages of this design:

 

  • Makes what you can craft matter more.  Because currently, if you find a high quality widget, you never have to worry about finding the schematic to make another one.
  • Makes your tool crafting quality matter more.  Because you would have a reason to learn to craft Q4 widgets, even after you'd looted a Q4 widget.
  • Makes late game looting matter more.  Because the need for replacements would be an incentive to keep looting & doing quests.  Call it a burden or a loot treadmill if you want, but isn't the game better when there are more practical reasons to do quests over the whole course of your game?
  • Makes finding duplicates matter more.  Because currently, duplicates for high quality items are useless. You pawn them straight off to the trader, or you throw them in a chest if you're a hoarder.
  • Makes durability more meaningful.  Because currently, there's no thought involved once you're out of the early game and repair kits are plentiful.  Repairing just means click a button, with no consequences.
  • Potentially lessens the need for higher quality crafting to require more parts.  Because you'd be using more parts to restore/improve the quality of your existing items instead. 
  • Potentially lessens the need to enforce a primitive age where higher tier/higher quality items are unattainable.  Because it's more feasible to find good things early, if they'll only buoy you above your level temporarily.
     

 

 

And finally, to the 'if you don't like it don't do it' crowd... No!  It's a survival game.  It's even a survival game first according to @madmole today (thanks for clarifying that).  Self-imposed restrictions in-game, like throwing things away or pretending certain advantages don't exist, are luxuries: luxuries which ruin the sense that you are trying to survive.  And it'd be nice if you could mod in degradation, but I don't think you could - not with xml modding anyway.  I'm not aware of any hooks to set a change in quality when the repair is performed.

If this doesn't sell item degradation then I don't know what will. In particular the fact that this introduces an end game loop and activity should be enough to make it worth implementing.


Items don't even need to degrade in quality after a single repair. Maybe they last 2-3 repair kits before losing a quality level. Level 1 items could break entirely. Schematics or perks could also impact how quickly something degrades in quality.

Of course It would be much better if you got better at repairing the more you did it using an LBD system rather than perks but that's a hot topic for another day 😉

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9 minutes ago, caatalyst said:

If this doesn't sell item degradation then I don't know what will. In particular the fact that this introduces an end game loop and activity should be enough to make it worth implementing.


Items don't even need to degrade in quality after a single repair. Schematics or perks could also impact how quickly something degrades in quality.

Of course It would be much better if you got better at repairing the more you did it using an LBD system rather than perks but that's a hot topic for another day 😉

Thanks, but you just haaaad to poison it with LBD, didn't you. 😛

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Item degradation sounds like an attempt to keep the game interesting in the very long term and very late game. However, I am sure there are other possibilities of even better contents that could be added for players having to do something past day 40.

 

Having to look for the same tool over and over again does not sound fun to me. Rather make repairing more expensive as it is a breeze to stack up 100 repair kits. Or allow repair kits only to repair the item to some degree leaving it with some flaws (decreased damage, range whatever) but still usable and make a full repair more expensive (different items and tool parts / workbench etc. needed).

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Wacky idea.

 

A new Candy, "That all ya got?!" when eaten it adds 10 to your gamestage.

 

Sure, already doable via the console, but only talking an Icon and a bit of xml. Would offer a vanilla way to bump GS for any that find things too easy, or don't really like the slower start.

 

The 'too easy' is not about Difficulty, more for when you get a lucky drop or are on a flat spot wanting the next lvl zeds.

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37 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

Wacky idea.

 

A new Candy, "That all ya got?!" when eaten it adds 10 to your gamestage.

 

Sure, already doable via the console, but only talking an Icon and a bit of xml. Would offer a vanilla way to bump GS for any that find things too easy, or don't really like the slower start.

 

The 'too easy' is not about Difficulty, more for when you get a lucky drop or are on a flat spot wanting the next lvl zeds.

That could be easily abused to also get better loot and kind of skip stone age earlier.

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5 hours ago, Gazz said:

I mean... did that really look trustworthy to you?

So does that comment mean that the SI instability is designed, and we should mostly always expect the lifts to collapse when we mine concrete/cobblestone pallets off them?

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The bigger problem with weapons ATM is that weapon crafting has a big WTF: You might have the parts to craft a quality 3 gun but since you perked the weapon higher you can only craft a quality 5 gun. The second lesser problem is that since you perk into your main weapon faster than you progress up the tiers means that once you got the tier3 schematic in a balanced game you will only ever craft quality 5. Because at that time you are almost guaranteed to have 4 points in the weapon.

 

This can be solved in a lot of different ways:

 

1) The user can set the quality to be crafted in the UI

 

2) The game crafts only the quality determined by the lower of perk and materials in the inventory.

 

 

3) The player finds weapon schematics a bit more frequently and the quality to craft is determined by the number of schematics learned for that weapon. So the player can choose quality by collecting schematics instead of reading them immediately.

 

4) The workbench has tools slots like the forge. But you put a stackable item (for example repair kits, weapon parts, ... ) into it and the number represents the quality.

 

I like solution 3 as it balances crafting better than just a single schematic (even though weapon parts fulfill the same function already).

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jugginator said:

That was one thing I am very grateful that got changed; I thought the same damn thing: "Oh noes my damn [shirt,bandana,shoes,pants] broke, gotta take them off repair them and put them back on" (or craft new ones lol) was really silly. Now that we can put mods in them... that would have sucked.

 

Something I've noticed: repair kits frequently drop out of boxes in 20+ stacks on normal loot % and they're dirt cheap to make now, just a balancing thing I noticed.

when i played 7DTD on PC i was so confused about that!  

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9 hours ago, madmole said:

It is a problem for those who want a real challenge (probably a fair amount if not majority of players) and being easily safe with exploits removes the incentive to keep playing. I recall playing A16 and was having fun until I was looting too late and had no choice but to sit on a roof top. I threw some spikes down to clog up the stair well and thought I'd be dead for sure, but all they did was spin circles and break a few blocks and make some noise. I quit playing, I thought why would I build a great fort if all you need to do is sit on a roof of an old crusty building. No challenge = no fun for me in any game.

Delete backpack on death dude. Same basic thing, 0 complaints from people though. Or just remove the repair kit from your game and maybe double the degradation of items. I actually enjoyed rebuilding my stuff when my backpack got removed before we fixed the bug. Or just use no mods, self control like the ppl dead is dead around here, and scrap your stuff when it degrades and let us know how you like it.

 

Delete backpack on death only helps that noobs that don't play dead is dead ;)

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I support item degradation. I don't accept the delete all on death as a replacement because until I'm confident I won't die due to a bug or janky mechanics (excessive zombie reach on servers, for example) it just feels unfair. Also, I don't want to lose ALL my gear at the same time. I'm looking for a reason to keep looting after I've found all my top tier gear. I want to role play that after weeks or months of surviving against the hordes my items break down. This idea of "play 'til you get bored then restart" is so disappointing and speaks to a lack of end game design. I hope this mentality is more so because end game content is coming and not that it's the intended way to play.

 

For the record, I do restart fairly early - usually around day 50. I'm invested in my character and world but looting is what really drives me in this game. To get to a point where the only option is to sell everything is boring. There's no longer any choice in that.

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8 hours ago, Roland said:

I did let you know. I like it. I played with degradation in earlier alphas and I liked it. I do play delete all on death and I like it.

 

Doubling the durability of everything and disabling repair might be an interesting idea I'd be willing to try. Throwing away stuff willingly is okay but just like death is death there is a big difference in the feel of it when you know you're not in control. It's not that I can't do it but when the universe created by the game is in charge instead of me it changes it. You must know what I'm talking about since you want to add a death is death option into the game eventually.

 

I can do all those those things and have done them but I don't need to do them to "see if it's fun". I already know that it is.

Mod makers need hooks to make the mods-- at least those of us who are limited to xml edits. Modding out is always easier than modding in. I'd rather see an inoccuous version added that isn't offensive to anyone. THEN those who are going to be offended by anything can mod it out and those of us who want it even more impactful CAN mod it to be so. But it sounds like Madmole has categorized the whole idea as sharp sticks. If I'm a driving force behind this suggestion then he is the mass of bloodmoon vultures stopping me in my tracks. :)

No we had gun parts and repair used parts to repair and improve each part. On one hero item it probably wasn't horribly tedious. Now take that idea with anything that allows mods, and go wide with it. See how much fun it is swapping 4 mods after hundreds of clicks constantly. It is real easy to test, just don't use a repair kit in  your next game. No mods needed. Use your dead is dead style of self control to implement this. The later your game the worse it is going to feel because when you have 3-4 mods changing an item for a better one gets painful, and we unlikely going to improve that whole experience.

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9 hours ago, madmole said:

It is just more crap to confuse players with IMO. Not everyone plays the game long games like you guys do, most people wouldn't even notice it because they just upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.... then they are end game and quit or restart. I don't actually repair my stuff that much, I replace it after about 1 or 2 repairs max. I don't know the exact number of times, but most of my repair kits go to items I find and I repair them to sell them for max xp and dukes. I don't think repair comes into play except on horde nights or lengthy mining sessions. Maybe early game that lame stone axe needs repaired often... but I could just as well craft another, and often I do, because I level, and craft all new stone tools, clubs etc. Repair isn't something we actually do that much. By the time my armor is shot, I have new stuff. Repair isn't really a big part of the game, so I don't think it is worth bothering with. It wouldn't really change the experience that much IMO.

 

Hi MM,

 

I get restarting another playthrough and doing it again can be fun but continuing on is also a fun adventure that is enjoyable.

 

For example, my brother and I love exploring and leveling and know once the game finally goes gold we will continue to play our worlds even after beating the main quest.  I will definitely be doing some modding so we can keep playing 7d2d for as long as possible....at least until 7d2d2 comes out....🤣

 

Edit: hopefully legendary items will be enough to keep looting still relevant/fun after players have peaked out in the looting game.

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10 hours ago, EggsAisle said:

Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

 

 

 

 

Yes, between killing your accomplishments and inventory tetris of swapping mods I can't see it as anything but adding more grind to slow people down. There is nothing wrong with reaching end game. The hordes grow in numbers/difficulty and players have enough stuff to worry about late game, time is precious.

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11 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Is there a reason why we can wrench couches? We get the same amount of materials whether we wrench or simply axe them.

Yeah. If it gave us 1 mechanical as opposed to "axing" them I would understand. 

 

Because deleting the wrenching option altogether could upset the streamlined gameplay design . Also, the public water dispensers for disabled people that are in game in many POIs should be wrenchable and give the same resources as either pipe wheels or toilets.

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10 hours ago, madmole said:

It is a problem for those who want a real challenge (probably a fair amount if not majority of players) and being easily safe with exploits removes the incentive to keep playing.

Think the majority of people need to learn self control then..

If something is a "exploit" and they know it, then they can just not do that....

Kinda like whoever it was posting that they dbl dip on the poi quest resets all the time, but find it boring and a cheat and want it removed....

I couldn't believe someone would post something that dumb..

If you think it's a exploit to run away (also called a tactical retreat) then don't do it...

If you think it's a exploit to hide from the horde then don't do it..

All you are doing is limiting how players can play the game.

Personally, I think if you are not playing Permadeath/Dead is Dead, then you got no right to ask for the game to be harder to play/or make it impossible to avoid the horde.

 

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5 hours ago, Kattla said:

Players would find riding out the horde night to not be a challenge, and try out another way the next time. Players who genuinly want a challenge will find it, be it by method, option or mod/modlet. For players wanting a challenge, riding out the horde night was never a problem, since they'd choose more challenging methods in the first place.

 

Beeing chased up on a rooftop and quit the game because a simple trick fooled the zombies. And afterwards introduce a system that makes the zombies ten times easier to fool around, not to mention making every POI like a fortified gun, tool and food store. And very often place those high value items high up.. Perhaps it was not a lack of challenge that caused the flying Dumbos, hmmm? 🤭

 

Well, that explain why someone said the reason for flying Dumbos was the some of the devs having a problem. My apology to that person, i think i might have overlooked his deeper logic😌. I apology, Jax. And no, i am neutral on the vultures attacking player-ridden vehicles on horde night, i just did not see a logic in it.

 

I think i gonna let this dead horse rest though. Much funnier beating (un)dead bears.

POis were a joke too. 3 seconds to loot one house, next. How was that engaging? Anything deemed too easy or an inferior experience gets worked on. No offense but your arguments are emotionally driven and have no logic.

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It would be really interesting if there was a meaningful trade-off between keeping your best weapons fully repaired versus trying to find better weapons. As an example, you could change some POIs to have a higher loot quality bonus, but massively fewer "loot-room" containers. 

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23 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

When using left click attack with a ratchet on radiators it shows the hitting animation instead of the rotating motion. Should not be like that I think.

i think it has been like that ever sense Power attacks where a thing!

 

TBH i don't know how you can do a "power move" with a impact driver!

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