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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

Easy, the same way it did before.  Pop out one of the mods at random and then you'd have to go back in and reset it how you wanted it.  And if your inventory was full when it happened it'd fall on the floor and disappear forever if you were unlucky.  And then you'd come here and complain like holy hell because it happened to your legendary club of doom and how it completely ruined the game for you and you were never going to play again.

 

Like I said, this was already in the game and people hated it like poison on a cracker.

Edited by Pegasus (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

it could make the mod slot red so you have to remove the mod from the item or the last mod in the item gets put in your backpack, something along those lines i think would work, mind you i don't know anything about lines of code in a game so i don't know if it would cause a problem with crashing and stuff, almost like stuff breaking on an item, imagine u got a level 6, it stays that way but one of the mod slots *breaks* and now u gotta remove that mod cause its unusable, same idea in my head lol, im trying to stay consistent with my train of thoughts on this for how it could work long term

1 minute ago, Pegasus said:

Easy, the same way it did before.  Pop out one of the mods at random and then you'd have to go back in and reset it how you wanted it.  And if your inventory was full when it happened it'd fall on the floor and disappear forever if you were unlucky.  And then you'd come here and complain like holy hell because it happened to your legendary club of doom and how it completely ruined the game for you and you were never going to play again.

now your starting to get negative, lets not bring negativity back to the forum, just constructive criticism if anything, i don't think many would actually storm the forum to complain due to them not paying attention

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I'm not for or against degradation. If it gets added then I'll adapt to the increased difficulty. I would only suggest ways to make degradation more gradual so it is less impactful if it were added. 

 

What degradation can add is making some perks/schematics far more useful. Especially if one allowed you to master in a craft to repair an item to full health. This would increase team dynamics. If running solo, then as someone suggested, a trader could repair to full for a price since the traders are now specialized.

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Please don't do perma degredation, it's just obnoxious.

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4 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

now your starting to get negative, lets not bring negativity back to the forum, just constructive criticism if anything, i don't think many would actually storm the forum to complain due to them not paying attention

LOL  Not being negative ... I remember the posts from before. 

 

It is a fact ... item degredation upon repair was previously part of the game. It was removed partly because people complained that it was ruining their high quality weapons and tools and partly because TFP felt that a different route for the weapons and tools would better fit their game design.

 

It is also a fact that if your inventory was full when your item degraded and lost a mod slot the mod would fall on the ground and if you did not get it quick enough or it fell through the world, it was gone forever.

 

And that was before the extra vehicles were added, so having the vehicles degrade upon repair will open up a whole new level of pain.  If you think that people won't complain about this happening again, then you are a better person than I am or you are on some serious drugs (please share).

 

But I'll go ahead and back on out of this conversation, you guys have fun with it.

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Stepping back a bit I can't help but see the "need" for this as a substitute for just having more things to play with.

 

I know I'd rather get a new, "never seen this before! Yay!" shiny over continuously hunting for the same thing I already have.

 

11 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

 

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

Honestly I think some didn't start playing until after this was removed.

 

In my case I was being tongue in cheek when I said I'd played a game with almost this exact mechanic, it was 7dtd, heh :biggrin1:

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Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

 

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

 

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

 

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

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1 minute ago, Pegasus said:

LOL  Not being negative ... I remember the posts from before. 

 

It is a fact ... item degredation upon repair was previously part of the game. It was removed partly because people complained that it was ruining their high quality weapons and tools and partly because TFP felt that a different route for the weapons and tools would better fit their game design.

 

It is also a fact that if your inventory was full when your item degraded and lost a mod slot the mod would fall on the ground and if you did not get it quick enough or it fell through the world, it was gone forever.

 

And that was before the extra vehicles were added, so having the vehicles degrade upon repair will open up a whole new level of pain.  If you think that people won't complain about this happening again, then you are a better person than I am or you are on some serious drugs (please share).

 

But I'll go ahead and back on out of this conversation, you guys have fun with it.

no drugs, just seeking some new game mechanics, the items now have become bland to me, without the need to constantly go out and find more it makes end game not really last long right now, i want a reason to keep looting, i want a reason to keep going out there

 

like how i mentioned sandstorms in the desert that could cause damage to bases and such, shot down for annoyance

crops sometimes rotting if u dont harvest right away, shot down too

these things would add new levels to the game that makes people think instead of following the same patterns over and over again, hell i suggested earthquakes that could change the terrain on a map and keep the map alive

 

im just trying to think of things that can be fun with what we have now

1 minute ago, Vechs said:

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

 

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

 

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

 

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

they had that back in a15 actually, it was the skills got better and u could craft better items from using it a lot, kinda like skyrim skill progression, it was taken out because people would cheese it and dupe like hell to have a level 600 stone ax day 1

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3 minutes ago, Vechs said:

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

 

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

 

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

 

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

Or you could just leave an M60 in a chest for 100 in-game days and suddenly, bam, it deals 400 weapon damage and has a 600 magazine size by default. 😜

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2 hours ago, pregnable said:

Just reminds me of the days when the forum was in charge of balance and we ended up with all guns being really hard to find and make while at the same time all being way worse than the starter bow. 

First of all, the forum has never been in charge of balance. People like to blame "ouspoken minorities" on the forum for a change they don't agree with-- probably in some thin attempt to appear loyal to the developers themselves. There is only and has only ever been one group in charge of balance and that is the development team. If they made a change that went along with the sentiment of the forum then it was something they discussed in house and decided upon as well. Sometimes there have been reactions by the developers in response to overwhelming negative feedback but there was never an era or "the days" when all the devs did was follow however the forum sentiments blew. We'd still be kneedeep in LBD if that were true.

 

Secondly, there is no reason why degradation has to involve a loss of quality or modslots. All it has to be is a number of repairs possible until the item can no longer be repaired. Then it can be scrapped for parts. I'm all for simple and streamlined. No complication with mod slots, no changing colors, just a finite number of repairs. Easy-Peasy.

 

For those of you who never use stuff that degrades you could use it up until it's last repair and then keep it as a trophy forever. That way you would get some use out of it AND always have it around to look at.

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

First of all, the forum has never been in charge of balance. People like to blame "ouspoken minorities" on the forum for a change they don't agree with-- probably in some thin attempt to appear loyal to the developers themselves. There is only and has only ever been one group in charge of balance and that is the development team. If they made a change that went along with the sentiment of the forum then it was something they discussed in house and decided upon as well. Sometimes there have been reactions by the developers in response to overwhelming negative feedback but there was never an era or "the days" when all the devs did was follow however the forum sentiments blew. We'd still be kneedeep in LBD if that were true.

 

Secondly, there is no reason why degradation has to involve a loss of quality or modslots. All it has to be is a number of repairs possible until the item can no longer be repaired. Then it can be scrapped for parts. I'm all for simple and streamlined. No complication with mod slots, no changing colors, just a finite number of repairs. Easy-Peasy.

 

For those of you who never use stuff that degrades you could use it up until it's last repair and then keep it as a trophy forever. That way you would get some use out of it AND always have it around to look at.

Does that mean we can get gun and armor racks for our bases to showcase awesome stuff we have for the trophies 😃

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1 hour ago, Pegasus said:

But remember this ... your beloved motorcycle or gyrocopter will also become useless under this new system.  Madmole said that it's all or nothing.  Do you really want to have to rebuild your transportation from scratch every few game days?

 

Every few game days? No. But, maybe once or twice during an entire game? Sure. It's fun to search out the parts. Maybe if you see another one at a trader you'll buy it up as a spare which you would never do now. Nobody who wants degradation is asking for it to be like the hunger mechanic. The fact that you have to cast it in that light in order to make it seem bad shows that as a concept it isn't really that bad. 

 

My question was why didn't you ask if people want to rebuild every few game hours? Too far? Too obvious?

2 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

Does that mean we can get gun and armor racks for our bases to showcase awesome stuff we have for the trophies 😃

Absolutely. They will just look like secure wooden chests.

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7 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

no drugs, just seeking some new game mechanics, the items now have become bland to me, without the need to constantly go out and find more it makes end game not really last long right now, i want a reason to keep looting, i want a reason to keep going out there

 

like how i mentioned sandstorms in the desert that could cause damage to bases and such, shot down for annoyance

crops sometimes rotting if u dont harvest right away, shot down too

these things would add new levels to the game that makes people think instead of following the same patterns over and over again, hell i suggested earthquakes that could change the terrain on a map and keep the map alive

 

im just trying to think of things that can be fun with what we have now

 

And my point was that there are ways for you to have that without them having to rewrite the vanilla game again.

 

There are mods that increase difficulty like this exponentially.  Explore the mods.

 

You can also self impose restrictions on yourself.  There's no reason why you can't play your game with the understanding that when something breaks you don't repair it, you scrap it and get a new one.  You can harvest your crops and throw half your harvest away saying that it was spoiled when you inspected it.  Heck, you can even destroy half your base and say an earthquake did it.

 

You are asking for the devs to do things that players and modders can do themselves.  There's no reason to rewrite the game mechanics and further delay game releases.

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Just now, Pegasus said:

And my point was that there are ways for you to have that without them having to rewrite the vanilla game again.

 

There are mods that increase difficulty like this exponentially.  Explore the mods.

 

You can also self impose restrictions on yourself.  There's no reason why you can't play your game with the understanding that when something breaks you don't repair it, you scrap it and get a new one.  You can harvest your crops and throw half your harvest away saying that it was spoiled when you inspected it.  Heck, you can even destroy half your base and say an earthquake did it.

 

You are asking for the devs to do things that players and modders can do themselves.  There's no reason to rewrite the game mechanics and further delay game releases.

for starters i hate modding, lol never been my thing

and for another there is never anything wrong with bringing stuff up, talking about, seeing what people think constructively and maybe coming to new ideas, it never hurts to discuss stuff and u never know what you can think of with enough discussion, i like to think of the forum as an idea pool, where we can discuss stuff and see what happens.

you sound like you dont want anything new added, it almost hurts to see

oh and @Roland you tease, but i would love to be able to build the weapon and accessory racks for the wall in my house, i love how they look when looting them lol

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15 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

It is a fact ... item degredation upon repair was previously part of the game. It was removed partly because people complained that it was ruining their high quality weapons and tools and partly because TFP felt that a different route for the weapons and tools would better fit their game design.

False. It was removed because it no longer worked with mod slots. Just like digging was removed because it wasn't working properly but made a return once they were able to get it the way they liked. Item degradation could make a return if they ignore quality loss and simply make it be a function of how many times something can be repaired. I can tell you that when they made the switch from assembling weapons that stretched in quality from 1-600 to doing weapon mod slots with quality from 1-6 there was not one peep at the dev table about whether degradation was hated or not. That's because there was very little talk about item degradation. It definitely wasn't a hot topic of the time. Even now it seems it is about equally supported and disliked.

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5 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Every few game days? No. But, maybe once or twice during an entire game? Sure. It's fun to search out the parts. Maybe if you see another one at a trader you'll buy it up as a spare which you would never do now. Nobody who wants degradation is asking for it to be like the hunger mechanic. The fact that you have to cast it in that light in order to make it seem bad shows that as a concept it isn't really that bad. 

 

My question was why didn't you ask if people want to rebuild every few game hours? Too far? Too obvious?

 

Okay, but just because you're not asking for it doesn't mean that it's not going to be the final mechanic, now does it?  If implemented it would make sense that degredation of vehicles would occur based on amount of use ... so after you run back and forth to your hunting/looting grounds and your base a few times a day then the vehicle will probably require repairs.  If it loses overall durability each time it is repaired, or can only be repaired x number of times before it is no longer repairable ... then depending on how much you use it, it could be every few days.

 

I am not trying to cast anything in any kind of light.  I am opposed to the idea, it didn't work well before and I don't see how it can work well now.  Nothing has been fleshed out to say how it would work, so all I have to model it on is past instances of this same mechanic.

 

Since you are obviously more in touch with the devs than I am, perhaps you have an inside scoop that gives you insight into how it would be implemented that hasn't been shared yet.

 

And I didn't ask if people wanted to rebuild every few game hours because the discussion was regarding weapons, tools, armor and vehicles. There was no discussion about building blocks degrading with repair. Are you suggesting that the building blocks should also stop being repairable? And that bases should just collapse at some point?  

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

False. It was removed because it no longer worked with mod slots. Just like digging was removed because it wasn't working properly but made a return once they were able to get it the way they liked. Item degradation could make a return if they ignore quality loss and simply make it be a function of how many times something can be repaired. I can tell you that when they made the switch from assembling weapons that stretched in quality from 1-600 to doing weapon mod slots with quality from 1-6 there was not one peep at the dev table about whether degradation was hated or not. That's because there was very little talk about item degradation. It definitely wasn't a hot topic of the time. Even now it seems it is about equally supported and disliked.

oh ok, my bad lol, this is why i like reading your responses, you bring reason to the table, mod slots makes sense lol.

at least degredation isnt completely hated lol

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Well, the bottom line is that TFP will do what they think is best.

 

Since expressing my dislike for the idea is not allowed, I will now say that item degredation is awesome and should be implemented immediately if not sooner. 

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4 minutes ago, Roland said:

..... It was removed because it no longer worked with mod slots....

I'm sure that was the real and only reason for removing the degradation... and not what MM said :). As always.

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2 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Well, the bottom line is that TFP will do what they think is best.

 

Since expressing my dislike for the idea is not allowed, I will now say that item degredation is awesome and should be implemented immediately if not sooner. 

Excellent! Your social credit has just risen! ;)

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21 minutes ago, Roland said:

First of all, the forum has never been in charge of balance. People like to blame "ouspoken minorities" on the forum for a change they don't agree with-- probably in some thin attempt to appear loyal to the developers themselves. There is only and has only ever been one group in charge of balance and that is the development team. If they made a change that went along with the sentiment of the forum then it was something they discussed in house and decided upon as well. Sometimes there have been reactions by the developers in response to overwhelming negative feedback but there was never an era or "the days" when all the devs did was follow however the forum sentiments blew. We'd still be kneedeep in LBD if that were true.

 

Secondly, there is no reason why degradation has to involve a loss of quality or modslots. All it has to be is a number of repairs possible until the item can no longer be repaired. Then it can be scrapped for parts. I'm all for simple and streamlined. No complication with mod slots, no changing colors, just a finite number of repairs. Easy-Peasy.

 

For those of you who never use stuff that degrades you could use it up until it's last repair and then keep it as a trophy forever. That way you would get some use out of it AND always have it around to look at.

 

Okay, Gazz made all the weapons terrible, lol... and they stayed that way until Madmole got involved. 

 

I remember when MM made a video and was going to get a shotgun and use it on a zombie, acting excited, and I laughed out loud because it was obvious he did not realize that all guns were trash. 

 

Then he shot it and it did like nothing and he was like "uhh... wut"... then not too long after that the weapons got balanced to where they actually did damage again.  

 

 

The game does not need a loot treadmill to solve an endgame problem when the endgame is not finished and the problem does not really exist in the first place. 

 

But nah, if the weapons and item degrading every get like they were before, I would probably just not play as much, or play something else, like I did before.

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2 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Well, the bottom line is that TFP will do what they think is best.

 

Since expressing my dislike for the idea is not allowed, I will now say that item degredation is awesome and should be implemented immediately if not sooner. 

no one said expressing your dislike is not allowed, but i was hoping for more constructive arguments instead of a flat hate for it, thats all

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26 minutes ago, Vechs said:

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

 

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

 

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

 

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

Wow, so i'm not the only person to have heard of that!

I always thought it was a cool belief myself.

I have several pocket watches that are 100+ years old.

I like the gets better with use idea, but most everyone else is gonna poo all over that.

10 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

Okay, but just because you're not asking for it doesn't mean that it's not going to be the final mechanic, now does it?  If implemented it would make sense that degredation of vehicles would occur based on amount of use ... so after you run back and forth to your hunting/looting grounds and your base a few times a day then the vehicle will probably require repairs.  If it loses overall durability each time it is repaired, or can only be repaired x number of times before it is no longer repairable ... then depending on how much you use it, it could be every few days.

 

I am not trying to cast anything in any kind of light.  I am opposed to the idea, it didn't work well before and I don't see how it can work well now.  Nothing has been fleshed out to say how it would work, so all I have to model it on is past instances of this same mechanic.

 

Since you are obviously more in touch with the devs than I am, perhaps you have an inside scoop that gives you insight into how it would be implemented that hasn't been shared yet.

 

And I didn't ask if people wanted to rebuild every few game hours because the discussion was regarding weapons, tools, armor and vehicles. There was no discussion about building blocks degrading with repair. Are you suggesting that the building blocks should also stop being repairable? And that bases should just collapse at some point?  

I think vehicles breaking down at all is kinda silly myself.

I drive close to 100 miles per day round trip to get to work and back.

Maybe every 50-80k I will have something that needs fixing..

Unless you are running over stuff, or jumping it off cliffs etc, the vehicles are fine the way they are.

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13 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

I think vehicles breaking down at all is kinda silly myself.

I drive close to 100 miles per day round trip to get to work and back.

Maybe every 50-80k I will have something that needs fixing..

Unless you are running over stuff, or jumping it off cliffs etc, the vehicles are fine the way they are.

Let's end with a compromise. Every time you get on your vehicle and start moving, there's a 25% chance of it exploding, even bicycles. ;)

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Just now, MechanicalLens said:

Let's end with a compromise. Every time you get on your vehicle and start moving, there's a 25% chance of it exploding, even bicycles. ;)

id find it funny with when we are running over zombies that sometimes the vehicle would stall, and u had to unclog zombie guts from the engine with a timer similar to that of lockpicking, would it be annoying sure, but kinda funny too, especially if your character grunted and groaned cause it was gross

then again, i would love a bbq to be able to be crafted for use in the base, and food made with it is like 10% better with higher stats

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