Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[mstdv inc]

39 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

When I played as the farmer in our group in an A19 game last year I put the farm plots in a corner just ~10 meters away from the base. We used that base as a horde base for the first 5 hordes at least and I lost at most 2 plots if any at all.

 

We often put a farm near our crafting base and compared to the effort some others seem to make into securing their farm our losses are definitely negligible.

 

And if we dug holes and dropped the plots into those holes there would be even less chance of a loss, you would need to shoot policemen while they are standing on your plots to make that happen.

 

 

I used to place everything inside the base, farm plots on separate balconies or on the roof.I am building two or three-storey bases (1st floor for meeting the horde, the second is a garage (sometimes together with a residential area), the third floor is a residential area) and I am not used to going outside the base during crafting or collecting resources from the farm.In my case, the dew collector will be placed either on balconies next to farm plots or on the roof.

[zztong]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Would also be useful for nomadic players. Instead of packing 20 dew collectors every time a player moves, maybe it would be only 2 or 3.

 

I was thinking about nomadic play. I enjoy doing that from time to time, even as a no-vehicle backpack only nomad, and play a personal goal of "cross 50 maps until I find the airport where the supply drops originate" kind of game. (Generate a new map for each crossing and move the character file over.) Admittedly this isn't the game TFP envisioned, but I find it fun.

 

I've tended to carry a cookpot and grill, then boil my water stack up to 10 in the late afternoon along with Bacon and Eggs from hunting and foraging as I go. I'm not really interested in carrying around the Dew Collector, nor do I carry around other workstations.

 

With this change to water, I can't boil water from rivers, lakes, and swimming pools that I encounter in my travels. Until I get a helmet filter, I'll have to depend on finding murky water in POIs, which is okay in the grand scheme of things, though as I've said before... weird. I mean, water in toilets and drain traps would evaporate, water heaters would rust and break, but lakes and streams... well, weird.

 

If I'm on a server with friends, if I'm being nomadic, I still end up with little way-stations scattered about where I built safe places to AFK and plunk down workstations. I'd put dew collectors at those way-stations.

 

For a regular game, I'll add Dew Collection to my farming. I'm puzzled why folks insist on putting farms on roofs. (It's not like The Sims where Zombies attack farms.) Roofs are convenient, sure, but farms work fine on the ground too.

 

(Oh right, the forum merges posts... Edited to fix the presentation.)

 

For cabinets (and any other mundane loot container) ... cans were a source of scrap iron. Perhaps you'll put iron on the list of loot, to simulate finding misc cooking utensils. Or, maybe you'd consider adding a number of household items that only exist only to be scrapped or smelted, kind of like some of the brass items.

Edited July 25, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[meganoth]

38 minutes ago, mstdv inc said:

I used to place everything inside the base, farm plots on separate balconies or on the roof.I am building two or three-storey bases (1st floor for meeting the horde, the second is a garage (sometimes together with a residential area), the third floor is a residential area) and I am not used to going outside the base during crafting or collecting resources from the farm.In my case, the dew collector will be placed either on balconies next to farm plots or on the roof.

 

My comment was for people who were complaining about not having the space on their POIs-converted-to-bases.

You don't sound like you have a space problem at all. If you have, consider building a fourth floor.

 

 

[RipClaw]

22 minutes ago, zztong said:

For a regular game, I'll add Dew Collection to my farming. I'm puzzled why folks insist on putting farms on roofs. (It's not like The Sims where Zombies attack farms.) Roofs are convenient, sure, but farms work fine on the ground too.

It's been a while, but there was the idea that zombies should be able to trample the plants and that you have to protect your garden. Maybe the players think that this has been implemented.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

A mod to create a dew collector should not be that hard to make. You just have to create a block that uses the game mechanics of the plants. The auto miner in the Apocalypse Now mod and the oil pumps in the Warzuk mod both work on this principle. The autominer uses a existing model and treat it like a plant. After a certain time the block is replaced with another block and in the inventory are the ressources.

 

True, but I would also consider the value of doing it on my own.  I know that the Devs have created one for A21 so it is coming down the road.  Would it be worth the effort for me to mod it into my current mod just to try out?

 

And to be perfectly honest, I want to try to see how hard it would be to survive using A20 water drops already in the game.  Can I survive if I remove empty jars from the game and only get by with traders, vending machines, and what I can loot out in the world?  We know other changes related to water are coming (based on the comments already), but what would happen if I just add the no jars today with how I am playing the game today?  😁

[Jost Amman]

13 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Some of us don't even use traders.  So no.

So basically you're saying that first you put on yourself a handicap or a self-imposed rule, and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game... yeah, I can see how that'd @%$# you off.

[zztong]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

This is the crux of your dilemma right here and the key to your solution is modding. If you want to play in a way that completely outside the scope of the basic game then you are obviously going to have to change some things about the basic game.

 

Agreed, though I would probably just top off my murky water stack at 10 (via dm/cm commands) when I visited a lake or river.

 

But I was responding to a post about Nomadic play where another player was discussing the hit to their inventory if they wanted to carry around Dew Collectors. Part of the fun with Nomadic play (even if you don't backpack from map to map) is a more constrained inventory.

 

Towards that end, and a positive of the change, Nomads won't have an inventory slot taken up by empty water jars.

[Guppycur]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

So basically you're saying that first you put on yourself a handicap or a self-imposed rule, and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game... yeah, I can see how that'd @%$# you off.

No, it's not a self imposed rule, it's just something I don't enjoy doing.

 

I also don't jump off of roofs and go about my day with a broken leg either.

 

I also haven't brought up balance.

 

...but nice try.  Keep at it, you may get it one day. 

[Fanatical_Meat]

9 hours ago, Gideon said:

It is interesting to me that over the span of this game's development it has drifted farther and farther from "realistic" toward "arcade". I'm referring to things like no magically appearing and disappearing drink containers, etc.

If that's good or bad, I'm not sure. It definitely has changed how the game feels for me. However, I'm one of those odd balls that uses mods in Fallout games to make them a bit more "realistic" along the lines of survival and combat.

Perhaps we can do away with food and water requirements? This isn't a bad thing, per se, though it heavily changes the feel of the game. They aren't required in some games with survival aspects, like Valheim. They are certainly useful in those games, but not required.

It would certainly help the evolution towards a more "arcade" game play design.

I don’t know man, it would be fine if glass containers were super rare but then we’d all be complaining why we can’t drink from plastic bottles or as we have now why can’t we drink from buckets or stovetop pots and so on. Point is water need has been way too easy to fulfill may as well do something different to at minimum extend the time water is rare longer.

Also as previously stated water works as gas does and always has worked. There is a certain amount of fuel and that’s it there are no containers.

@faatal @schwanz9000 I sort of remember @madmole saying he wants to bring back the old school “Horde Mode” of have/build a base, few minutes to go out and loot them a nightly horde. Basically a game mode mirroring much earlier Alphas. Any update on that?

 

[Guppycur]

41 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

I don’t know man, it would be fine if glass containers were super rare but then we’d all be complaining why we can’t drink from plastic bottles or as we have now why can’t we drink from buckets or stovetop pots and so on. Point is water need has been way too easy to fulfill may as well do something different to at minimum extend the time water is rare longer.

Also as previously stated water works as gas does and always has worked. There is a certain amount of fuel and that’s it there are no containers.

I don't think there's an argument that water needed to be harder, the consternation seems to be about the methodology they used.  The dew collector is a great addition, but the "balance" (there you go jost) could have been something different than weirdly removing jars. 

 

Mind you, since schwanz said they're not gonna remove the xml property, I don't give a poop.  But that's what the arguments seem to be. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[Roland]

50 minutes ago, Speedworx said:

This is purely making a change to make a change.

Ive already broken down why the empty jars were removed and how it changes the game and why having an infinitely refillable container is a bad idea—several times. Go back and read so you can understand why the change was made. No change is made simply to make a change. That isn’t how game design works. These changes were made after team meetings in which the ramifications were discussed and then tested. When it comes out in experimental it will be further tested by the overall community. I know some people won’t like it but I’m pretty confident most will enjoy the change and appreciate having a new type of workstation to craft and a new type of farm to create—all while making the game more consistent with itself. 

 

1 hour ago, Speedworx said:

People who play the game wouldn't ask for this.

 

I’d love to hear an explanation of why this is seen by some as the best way to design a game. Really. 
 

For this game the design comes from the proven professional developers and adjustments to that design comes from player feedback after they’ve had a chance to play it. 
 

I occasionally read people who criticize a change on the basis that nobody asked for it as if that is all the reason needed for why the change shouldn’t have happened. Others seem to want the devs to poll the players before they make a design decision in order to get the okay to proceed. Say what?!?

 

1 hour ago, Speedworx said:

Have some sort of end game, as there is little reason to play beyond about day 70.

 
That will come when post release updates come. The objective now is to polish and refine and finalize everything for what the base game is going to offer that the majority of new players is going to experience. An update that adds content to expand gameplay for Days 50 - 100 would be exactly the type of thing to extend the game once it is finished. You’re asking for version 1.5 while the devs are working on version 1.0. That is the risk of becoming a veteran player while the game is in early access. You play out the whole unfinished base game before it is done and then you have a long wait for them to finish the base game and then start working on extended game updates before you are going to see something new in the end game. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, schwanz9000 said:

Where do we get the milk?

They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk…. Too far?

[Guppycur]

Mama June milk confirmed.

[schwanz9000]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk…. Too far?

STAHP!!! You're not helping.

[Roland]

Just now, schwanz9000 said:

STAHP!!! You're not helping.

Sorry but I’m on team Milkshake!

 

plus it would be hilarious and right in line with Pimp humor for Big Mama to have a 100% chance of having a jar of milk in any loot bag she drops… 😂

 

Nobody asked for Big Mama to not drop milk!!!

[Melange]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk….

Okey dokey. Those are possibilities for milk I would suppose. However since acorns are the seed of oak trees, not maple trees, we might have to eliminate the maple milk. I'd welcome maple syrup though (stamina booster) as well as a pancake recipe that we can combine it with. Then perhaps combine the pancakes and maple syrup with bacon and eggs to yield a super food item. 

 

However I can't see myself chasing Arlene down the road armed only with an empty bucket 😅

[Laz Man]

For me, the problem with realism and games is you have to draw the line somewhere before it just stops being fun (subjective)

 

I can be completely off here but I feel 7 days to die is somewhere in the middle as far as realism is concerned.  It's not a hardcore realism simulation like project zomboid and it's not a slapstick cartoony arcade game like Orcs Must Die.  (Although twitch integration 😅)

 

 

 

[Guppycur]

38 minutes ago, Roland said:

It could have been but as @schwanz9000 stated, this change does bring consistency to the universe. No other substance in a container returns the empty container. Only canned food and drink did. Now those two exceptions work the same way as the rest and are no longer exceptions. 
 

Use oil —> no empty oil can returns and you can’t craft an empty oil can. 

Use gas —> no empty gas can returns and you can’t craft an empty gas can. 

Use stew —> no empty bowl returns and you can’t craft an empty bowl. 
Use acid —> no empty bottle returns and you can’t craft an empty acid bottle

. 

Oh the difference here is two fold.  One, jars served other game purposes, and two, there coulda been cooler methods to accomplish the goal.

[MisutoM]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Ive already broken down why the empty jars were removed and how it changes the game and why having an infinitely refillable container is a bad idea—several times. Go back and read so you can understand why the change was made. No change is made simply to make a change. That isn’t how game design works. These changes were made after team meetings in which the ramifications were discussed and then tested. When it comes out in experimental it will be further tested by the overall community. I know some people won’t like it but I’m pretty confident most will enjoy the change and appreciate having a new type of workstation to craft and a new type of farm to create—all while making the game more consistent with itself. 

 

Is it more consistent with the rest of the game though?

 

Let's consider the needs of the player and how most of those are solved in the first few days; shelter, food, weapons, vehicles, and healing. 

 

Shelter can be sorted out within 5 minutes of spawning in. Grab a POI and break the stairs and you're done. Shelter solved within 5~10 minutes of spawning into a new random world gen. Isn't this too easy? Even for horde night a huge number of industrial buildings can just have their stairs broken and the player is completely safe even on a day 70+ horde. Why does water need to be more complicated than shelter? 

 

Food can be sorted out on the first day for more than half of random world gens and by day 3 for the other other half. A utility point in living off the land and a quick stroll down the new and massive farming section of a city which puts 10s of farm POIs right next to each other and you'll have 3~5 stacks of corn plus some potatoes. Just eating those raw is days of food by itself. If you didn't spawn at a city, just follow the road and it'll connect to one thanks to a20s better world gen. With said food now in your pocket, you can stroll down the road collecting 100s of roadkill and use the rotten flesh to easily make farms before day 7, thereby making food infinitely renewable in base before the first horde even comes regardless of random world gen or RNG. Why are farms providing infinitely renewable food sources ok but jars providing infinite access to water not ok? I'd argue this is inconsistent. It's not like farms don't need a huge amount of tending to keep them running in the real world. 

 

Aside from the farms issue, a day in the snow biome provides such a ridiculous amount of meat that you can just live off of that for several bloodmoons and skip the veggies. Wolves get 1 shot by a primitive bow with stone arrow and provide 25 meat/hunger each. They don't hunt in packs or provide any actual danger to the player. We can also just stand on boxes and pelt a bear with stone arrows until it dies for an even bigger boon of meat. And if we ever run out, next time we come back with a vehicle and a gun it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Why is the existence of the snow biome ok but jars being refillable isn't? 

 

Weapons are getting rebalanced by virtue of the trader changes in a21 so not much we can say on this. Hopefully it gets rid of the buying an autoshotgun on day 2~4 though. 

 

Vehicles are sorted by day 6 reliably. I haven't had a world (even nightmare, insane, feral sense always on, 1 hour days challenge worlds) where I haven't had a motorcycle by or before day 6. It's dirt cheap to buy from traders and even cheaper to craft if you're willing to commit to INT. It's definitely subjective, but I'd argue that the motorcycle is the best vehicle in the game 90% of the time. Even if you don't agree with it being the best, it is a high tier late game vehicle that can be reliably gotten before the first horde night and can comfortably travel to 8-10 traders in a single 1 hour day on 8k maps thus trivializing distance in the game. Once you get your motorcycle, you never need to replace it, it just works infinitely. Why is it ok to get a motorcycle and have that last forever but it's not ok for jars to be refilled? 

 

Gas is a joke no matter which way you slice it. With a point or 2 in salvage operations tearing down a single parking lot of cars gives about a full 10k stack of gas so if you spend 1 night traveling around and dismantling stuff you'll get enough gas for the next several bloodmoons. Once you have a chem station it's even easier, 10 minutes on an oil shale vein and you'll have enough gas for the rest of the playthrough.

 

Almost forgot healing. A trip to the desert with 1 point in living off the land will give you enough aloe to outheal anything. A single point in physician unlocks bandages to multiply their healing 6x over. 2 perks in game multiply your healing 12 times over, think about that. Just 2 levels by themselves makes healing mathematically 12 times easier (double the aloe then 6x the healing). 

 

Why is water being more tedious to both secure in the early game and set up for the long game when compared to other things which should be harder like shelter, food, and vehicles? Are we going to make all those things more difficult too so that it's consistent? 

 

Pre-counter argument: "But you can do those things that early because you know what you're doing and are experienced in the game." The exact same point can be made about water. New players aren't going to know to live near a water source, they'll be too panicked while out or focused on other goals to remember to fill up their jars. New players already struggle with the basics, it's just vets who trivialize water on the first or second day reliably. 

 

42 minutes ago, Roland said:

No other substance in a container returns the empty container. Only canned food and drink did. Now those two exceptions work the same way as the rest and are no longer exceptions. 

 

But why was it decided to remove jars instead of... adding containers for those? The way gas works in 7 days has always felt like a placeholder. Why not add in a jerrycan which would make gas management harder and also more space inefficient (which would make a vehicle like the 4x4 more valuable as it can holder more gas in it and more space for extra gas if needed)? This would also be more tense as it'd take more time to syphon gas from a car rather than magically get it while we wrench it. It also adds to tense situations of searching for cars that actually have fuel and weren't drain by other survivors already (as opposed to literally any car you see now giving you gas 100% of the time). Adding in content actually improves the game as opposed to just removing stuff.

 

Oil could also just give a can after use? Like to harvest oil from a car require us to have an empty can and properly drain it. Again, increasing the time for us to get the resource we want out of a car leading to tense moments where zombies sneak up on us. 

 

Stew could just give a jar? Not like you can't just drink soup plus the recipe already takes a jar in the form of the water needed for it so literally nothing would have to change. The code is already there too, sham chowder gives you back a can so making stews give back a jar wouldn't even be extra work. 

 

Same deal for acid, either add in a plastic bottle or let them use jars too. Or we just hand wave acid because maybe it's too dangerous to try to clean the container it was in so we just say it's junk now. 

 

42 minutes ago, Roland said:

There was never four pages devoted to the weirdness of those things and people have always just accepted it.

 

There may not have been pages devoted to it, but clearly it's been noticed. Check out the Undead Legacy mod which does add in a jerrycan because of the weirdness of gas in 7 Days. 7 Days is in alpha so a lot of people likely just expected the current implementation of gas is a placeholder to be fixed later and the current implementation is not meant to be permanent. If this is intended to be the 1.0 design of gas maybe we should start devoting pages to that? Why does wrenching the door of a car magically give me cans of gas whose cans magically vanish once the gas is used?? 

 

 

End of the day though, the devs don't tell us something like this until it's decided so there's no point really commenting on it like I have. Similar to the farm change last alpha that nearly everyone was against (and I ended up actually liking). Most people just quit farming this alpha and live off meat and traders. Even I, who like farming and weirdly liked the changes, found myself not doing farming because it's now too time consuming. They just aren't worth the time in 90% of playthroughs where you've beaten the game by day 35 (all books discovered and max rank gear). Maybe the new water change and farming change will be useful when we get late game content so there's a reason to keep going after day 35, but until then we just have to live with them or ignore them and find a better way to play than the devs anticipated. Cause remember, they said food was actually hard for a20 lol, but foods never been easier. Dozens of farms being neighbors makes it trivial to collect corn and potatoes out the wazoo and the snow biome still exists as an all you can eat buffet. Water actually being more difficult is unlikely (though it does seem like glue will be harder/more tedious). 

Edited July 26, 2022 by MisutoM (see edit history)

[mstdv inc]

2 hours ago, Speedworx said:

2. animals you have to look after (cows, pigs, horses, etc)

With such suggestions, you'd better go to Raft, it's already done there

[Odetta]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-no-nope-gif-13134027

 

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Is it more consistent with the rest of the game though?

Yes. I just demonstrated how as containers, jars act like all other containers. 
 

Now, if you’d like to talk about the separate issue of water survival va other aspects of survival that’s fair. 
 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Shelter

Agreed that shelter is super easy to come by and definitely easier in A21 than hydration maintenance. 
 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Food

Agree that hunting is too easy but disagree that farming is the stroll in the park you claim. You are glossing over having to spend points in LOTL and creating the farm plots. I’d say that building a water farm is comparable to building a crop farm. If setting up a crop farm is simple to you then so will water be about as easy. 

 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Vehicles

Again you are just glossing over the perk points needed and the material gathering needed. You could also just say that after reading a couple forge ahead magazines and placing a few dew collectors wam bam easy peasy by day 6 you’ve solved water. So if we’re just going to gloss the details we can say water is pretty consistent with these other things. 
 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Gas

yeah just tear down a parking lot of cars with that free wrench in your starting inventory. Wrenches are a lot more rare in loot in A21 (as are weapons) so nobody is going to be disassembling stuff right away unless extremely lucky. You also act like chemistry stations are available easily. In fact the process of crafting a workstation in order to produce gas is pretty consistent with crafting a workstation to produce water. In A21 the dew collector is the very first item on the Forge Ahead ladder while a chemistry station is one of the last items so water is going to be easier to get up and running than gas and yet in a very parallel manner. 
 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

healing

In this case you are comparing A20 mechanics with an A21 mechanic. Perks will no longer unlock first aid recipes so your comparison doesn’t even track. This is why it is better to try changes out in the context of the new version rather than try to understand it from the perspective of the old version. There is no way that you will understand the changes until you can play them in the context of the overall A21 experience. That’s what early access is for. 
 

1 hour ago, MisutoM said:

Pre-counter argument: "But you can do those things that early because you know what you're doing and are experienced in the game."

Nope. Didn’t need that one. In fact it’s your experience with the A20 version and inexperience with all of the A21 changes and how they work together that is getting in your way. Now, maybe after you become experienced with A21 you may decide that hydration survival is disproportionately tougher than the other aspects of survival. We definitely will appreciate that feedback. 

[NekoPawtato]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

For me, the problem with realism and games is you have to draw the line somewhere before it just stops being fun (subjective)

Yeah nobody really questions how we can eat/drink so much in games and never have to go to the bathroom

I did play a survival game that had bathroom mechanics... basically have to build like an outhouse and go #2 every once in a while otherwise your character walks really slow (I think), and it was annoying/a chore

Edited July 26, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[POCKET951]

37 minutes ago, Roland said:

just tear down a parking lot of cars with that free wrench in your starting inventory. Wrenches are a lot more rare in loot in A21 (as are weapons) so nobody is going to be disassembling stuff right away unless extremely lucky. You also act like chemistry stations are available easily. In fact the process of crafting a workstation in order to produce gas is pretty consistent with crafting a workstation to produce water. In A21 the dew collector is the very first item on the Forge Ahead ladder while a chemistry station is one of the last items so water is going to be easier to get up and running than gas and yet in a very parallel manner. 

Are you saying guns will be more rare in A21 than they are in A20?  Trader balance aside in all my early game play troughs weapons already feel incredibly scarce and few and far in-between in the forest biome for the first 50 levels or so. I honestly don't think weapons need to be more rare than they already are because I feel like I hardly find any as is in the current alpha. In a20 I feel like 80% of my guns come from trader quest. 

 

 

As long as your balancing weapons from traders and not weapons from loot this will be fine

[Neminsis]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

First change then is that it makes iron gut more valuable. In my group of players I know nobody who would "waste" any perk points on iron gut. 

They're still not going to use it. They're going to focus Better Barter instead. I think we both know this.
 

 

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

This is a game where you can build anything you want. Either build more roof space or simply put them on a nearby building and build a gangway to it.

🙄 or just build them on the ground etc. I get all of that. The thing is that it removes the option of not having to do that. If you want to go into end game then you're just going to have to manage the sprawl. No choice.
 

 

18 hours ago, meganoth said:

You seem to think that bases using existing POI's is a feature of the game instead of an accident of being a fully reconstructable world. I'm not sure TFP is 100% happy about the availability of bases that you can create with just a few simple blocks removed.

Yes, I do think that. There are more than a dozen POIs that were added in a20 with just that end in mind. If TFP were against said features, it could only be to force players to build more, but if players are not building more already it's because they just don't want to.

To be clear, I don't think that the water changes are going to have much of an effect on the average player besides the occasional case of dysentery. If it does, it'll quickly be balanced out. I do think that it narrows the game play options for a number of niche playstyles in order to force the use of an asset that they just really wanted to add when they could've easily just limited the stack size of jars, or just make them unstackable like buckets, and gotten the same effect. 

[POCKET951]

11 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

To be clear, I don't think that the water changes are going to have much of an effect on the average player besides the occasional case of dysentery. If it does, it'll quickly be balanced out. I do think that it narrows the game play options for a number of niche playstyles in order to force the use of an asset that they just really wanted to add when they could've easily just limited the stack size of jars, or just make them unstackable like buckets, and gotten the same effect. 

I feel like these changes will really put a squeeze on the 25% loot,no trader players who I think will be forced to change and adapt, or require mods to play A21

59 minutes ago, schwanz9000 said:

Vending machines now match the prices of traders. Just remember that you can't barter with a machine.
 

The frequency of animals in the snow biome has been reduced.
 

Yup!
 

Three

Will it always be three? If it fills up after a day there is a really huge opportunity cost to that because doing tier5 pois will take you a day or 2. Why do tier 5 pois and lose on potential water when I can bang out 2 tier 4s in a day and not miss any yield?

 

Atleast give us amn option to make a water storage tank after reading the last forge ahead magazine so it can have a capacity up to 6 or 9 and require way less micro management. Currently requires 3x as  much management as crops