Neminsis

How about the fact that you quoted a post where I'd just got done explaining myself for the nth time and told them that I didn't want to discuss it further and then you basically just repeated what they'd said too? After a certain point it's just piling on, yeah? One last time, I find it offensive to have it implied that I'm being self serving or whining about not having my one true game style supported, because I pointed out a small balance issue and made suggestions how it could be addressed. Yes, it's different for the sake of brevity, but if you want to point out where at any time I was talking about this part... And then tell me how exactly you think that it's ignoring game mechanics to get exp from gathering and being able to sell resources to the trader when those ARE existing game mechanics. Also, conflating removing pois with casual people taking a slower pace with the main game loop, that smacks of disingenuousness. Or was it this bit that you were concerned that I ommitted? Because frankly, allowing those stay at homes to make a few more dukes so that they can buy books from the trader was pretty much my central point. Again, using the existing game mechanics. But this one, this I really do find annoying. I've specified multiple times now that this is only problem for new and causual players, and mostly on the new wilderness spawns and the flagship Navezgane map. A pretty important demographic to the long term success of this game. You know, players that are unlikely to be jumping right into modding the game. but it's the same cookie cutter response as if I'd asked to bring back LBD or something "extreme" to quote a previous responder, To be frank with you, I'm annoyed, I expected to make one post maybe two, but here it is a week later, an initial balance pass has occurred in the meantime, and I'm stuck here arguing about things that I never even said by people that seem more concerned with gatekeeping than understanding what it is I actually did say.

Sure, they have the same right to discuss it, but being outright dismissive, rude, and insulting of my motive, I don't think so. Now you're just being pedantic. I play a lot of styles, as I've stated repeatedly at this point, so no, I did not say that. Every single one that's responded to "discuss" this topic has done so to defend the main game loop and/or stated that anything outside of the main game loop should be disregarded, even though the main two suggestions do not have any effect on it, and the sum of what they said always came down to essentially saying, "TFP can do what they want, mod the game if you don't like it, and with the implied stfu and go away you're dumb." I do encourage you to go back and take a look if you don't believe that. I've answered everyone as clearly and precisely as possible. I am not responsible for their misunderstandings or yours. I am glad that you responded though because at least you've shown some predilection for seeking clarity rather than just shutting the other person down. We're not talking about large profits here, we're talking about difference between selling excess resources and buying a water a day or nothing at all. When I say "slight increase" I mean exactly that. At most I'm thinking a couple hundred dukes a day would be enough of an increase and that's a drop in the bucket compared to what someone is going to make looting, and even a smaller fraction when you factor in quest rewards. To make an easy test of it, start a game with no zombies, make a stone shovel, axe or both and then see how much you profit you can muster and what it'll buy you. If you think that it'll unbalance things later in the game go ahead and try it with maxed out skills and a maxed out auger, and to see how it would affect your scenario just mark down what is gained after 6 hours game time. Your night time miner is going to make an extra 50 dukes or so? It's really that close. What you're leaving out there is time/reward. Just because you use tools while you're questing doesn't mean that you're going to gain experience or resources substantially quicker when you do. The closest you're going to come to that is with dig quests and even if you dig out 30 blocks the amount of increase is going to be negligible when it's tuned to provide an extra couple hundred dukes and maybe a third again the exp on resources gathered over an entire day.

No, it really wouldn't but do explain how you think it would. No, they don't discuss it, they want to shut down discussion of it. I'm sorry but I do find that fundamentally misstating my position and therefore impugning my intentions and character after I've repeatedly explained otherwise is offensive, and that my sarcasm is warranted after literally everyone that's brought up balance issues here has been treated poorly for it and since I've dutifully answered every reply I've caught more of it than is anywhere near necessary. To be clear, I didn't start this conversation in a hostile manner, but yes, I have been aggravated by the hostile responses I've gotten since then. Alright, if you actually want to discuss it, in order of importance, So how would slightly bumping up the exp gain from gathering affect "normal players"? If you think that you can level up through gathering at anywhere near the rate of a questing player even considering building exp, you'd be mistaken. Don't expect players to all of a sudden not want to quest any more because chopping trees is faster exp. How would slightly improving the prices of bulk materials affect "normal players"? This is only to make it possible to buy what is necessary from traders and balance the difficulty between wilderness, Navezgane, and city spawns. And do please take into account that resources from pois are already balanced and limited to provide just enough to be able to build a base without having to gather manually. As for increasing the availability of "tool magazines" at the trader specifically this doesn't favor the "normal players" because those tools aren't critical to their experience gain rate at all. And for the "forge ahead" magazines the idea isn't to speed up crafting progression but to insure a minimum floor. Questing players are going to collect a lot more books from pois, the 1-2 available at the trader are just not going to make that much difference. Also, take note that because engineering and lockpicking affect the drop rate of the forge books doing so would also help to offset the imbalance in the Intellect tree. Of all four of those ideas, only the first two could be considered critical, the third's necessity depends on the first two and whether higher quality tools would be needed to synergize with the gathering perks to the same effect, and the fourth is a throw away as it doesn't address the main problem but instead is aimed more at overall balance between the trees.

One more time, this isn't 'my' playstyle, this is something that affects multiple playstyles. This isn't about narrowing the balance for my particular playstyle as the half dozen people on this board that have implied otherwise have suggested. In fact, it's not even something that would affect them at all, and yet they're all up in arms about even the suggestion of it. Nothing I've suggested would change the game in the slightest way for the people that are content with how it is presently. not one tiny bit. So what is it do you suppose that makes veteran players not want to have the game be more accessible for new players, to have the game be more attractive to a wider audience? Certainly it's in TFP interest to have as broad an audience as possible and not just tailor the vanilla game for a bunch of hardcore players, right? I mean, the money of filthy casuals spends just the same and there's more of them, right? Look, you're a modder, how long would it take you to bump up the exp gain on gathering tasks, and the prices for bulk materials and craftables? You wouldn't do as good of a job of getting the balance right without access to the internally generated spreadsheets that TFP have, but it would take you less than 5 minutes including taking 3 minutes out to read this and think of some scathing reply. And even so, you absolutely could not distribute that mod at anywhere near the same scale to those filthy casuals that TFP can by just balancing the vanilla game. You do understand that's almost a completely meaningless statement, right? Given that you're a veteran of the game and your previously stated preference for more challenging play, your avoidance of those particular perks would only serve to emphasize that you're aware that they make the game much easier. Which would only serve as more evidence in support of the thesis that lower skilled players or those simply looking to shortcut progression would choose them. Have you tried it lately? In a wilderness or Navezgane spawn? None of my suggestions would have any affect on the no trader playstyle since that's a playstyle that relies entirely on raiding, and I brought it up to highlight how dependent the player is on the trader and how op they are. Do consider that I'm saying this after the first patch has come out that has given a bit of a nerf to the trader by reducing the number of books available through them and increasing the price of water filters. So, obviously TFP are more aware of the trader imbalance than half the people on this board telling me that it's not their responsibility to balance things to 'my' playstyle. 🙄 If I'd suggested that there should be infinite ways to play then that might actually have some relevance. I didn't, in fact, I suggested minor tweaks to existing systems, that TFP have already laid the groundwork for by giving experience for gathering tasks and the ability to sell tier 0 stone arrows and bulk materials to the trader, in accordance with the stated goal of making crafting more important to the main game loop. If the counter thesis were correct that TFP intend to only serve veteran players or tight knit groups with an entirely quest focused game loop than why do those systems that don't serve that game loop exist? Yes, it is a great game, and if I were to say otherwise the tens of thousands of hours that I've spent on it would quickly prove me a liar, and it's not like I'm one of those people pining for the golden age of LBD and fishing turds from the toilets. You'll find those people on the opposite side of this conversation still bitter, thoughtlessly repeating what they were told when their favorite system was discarded for a better one, "it's not TFP responsibility to cater to every playstyle, just mod it." To be absolutely clear, because I've long grown tired of this conversation, I like the new system and I absolutely do understand the design logic behind it. I'm not suggesting a reversion to any old system, new code, or that development be slowed in any way. I'm merely suggesting a quick balance pass be made on some existing values on existing systems that wouldn't have any effect on the primary game loop other than to minorly offset the bias towards the intellect tree and allow players some leeway in when and how they interact with the main game loop, and that it would go a long way in smoothing over a lot of complaints from more casual players. Literally, nothing that would have and effect on anyone that's so kindly decided to gatekeep me for even bringing it up. Now, unless you have something constructive to say, please try and avoid quoting me in the future. Thank you and have a great day.

How can you tell if it's not intended, or just incomplete. Why do you think you have the ability to sell bulk materials and low level craftables like stone arrows to the trader? The devs have said over and over that it's not complete and that it's an iterative process. Besides, if I was actually complaining it wouldn't sound like, "hey, here's a potential balance issue that you might want to look at while this is still in the testing phase, and here's how I think you can solve it with the lowest amount of effort." I guarantee you that any dev that read that just nodded, maybe rolled their eyes a bit and said to themselves, "I know" with a pained expression while they were looking at a ginormous to do list. What you might not have noticed is what they did not do, they did not jump on my case about how I'm trying to do something unintended and then harass me for two days like some weird fan boy on a mission. Could you please just stop quoting me. I really don't want to engage with your gatekeeping nonsense any further.

I think that the loot probability distribution route would provide finer tuning with enough variance to keep things interesting, and well, that's how pretty much how everything else is balanced already and it's all set up for it. I wouldn't say that it's just the miner, it's also the scrapper and the farmer, and in a broader sense anyone that just wants to pick up road trash. The only trees that don't have a gathering skill or equivalent production skill early game are Agility and Intellect, one's a ninja and the other has better barter and daring adventurer, so... Although stay at homes are most often builders, I've left out building exp to simplify because you spend more time gathering resources and thus more food/water than you actually do building. Building exp is just in a good place for every tree. The ai is kind of broken right now from what I can tell. It looks like they're having trouble switching tasks e.g. beating on walls and not repathing. It'll be fixed eventually. No need to rush into modding it, unless you're into that sort of thing. I don't judge.

That doesn't work either because it's up to RWG where Jen is going to spawn and in Navezgane she's well outside the range of the initial spawn locations. This problem only really exists during the first 7 days. You do eventually level up enough at the end of the first 7 days that putting more points into your gathering perks makes buying books, from the trader by selling resources and crafted items, feasible. Travel time is important for a non questing player because of the extra time you have to spend to make enough money to buy drinks from the trader and to be completely 99% of players are setting up base within walking distance of whatever trader they spawn nearest to. Give it a try. Navezgane. Default settings. No questing. No raiding. I'll even spot you what you can steal from the outside of POIs. You're limited to what exp you can gain from resource gathering, self defense, and what money you can make from what you can gather this way and airdrops. Don't think of it as some kind of extreme game challenge, think of it as a way to isolate the problems for stay at home players and people that just don't want to raid for whatever reason. Here's a hint to make sure that you do survive, you can sell stone arrows to the trader because unless you're really bad with the bow you'll have stacks of feathers from all the raw eggs you'll have to eat So then you're going to playing the game without traders at all? There is also a tiny percentage of players that play that way too. I mean, it is actually easier when combined with raiding than not raiding and buying your food and water from the trader until you can produce your own. So maybe it is right for you. Go on throw away that crutch. Maybe, or maybe crafting will be balanced so that it comes up to the same level. Just favoring the critical crafting and workstation mags in the loot and trader table would go a long way towards evening it out, but yeah, daring adventurer and better barter really unbalances it.

Don't give up your day job to become a mind reader. I said, no, you're mistaken and then I clarified. You don't get to tell me what I was actually thinking, that's not how anything works. No, it's not even that. It was simply stating how Better Barter and Daring adventurer is highlighted as a preferable perk set by the very first experience at the trader and the very first time a player runs into difficulties obtaining any item. Did you not admit that you'd also thrown a point into Better barter or was that someone else? LOL...This is 'extremely' funny given that half the people around here are saying that I just play 'extreme' playstyles. I have played this game about every possible way that it can be played just to stave off boredom, and every alpha I test the boundaries all over again, because I really like not staying in the same rut for game after game, but hey you go on with throwing baseless accusations around, that's surely going to get you somewhere. 🙄 No, you'd kind of have to test and retest and then test again... 🙄 I already did that by suggesting the exp for gathering and prices for gathered resources/crafted items be bumped up to make books affordable from the trader and that the critical books of tool crafting and workstations be favored in the trader inventory. That being said, why your idea won't work besides it requiring more code and assets, which makes it automatic no go, is that a big part of the problem is travel time on wilderness and Navezgane spawns and where exactly would you locate this extra special trader? It's really just a minor balance issue and I don't see why everyone is getting so worked up over it. I leave you with this... And this... Thanks for playing and have a wonderful day. Have you noticed that none of the people that have responded to me actually seem to understand that TFP know that the game is unbalanced and that there are going to be multiple balance passes before it's out of experimental just like every other alpha to date? Seriously, now you go on and live your very best life.

How long have you been self designated as a spokesman for the TFP? I don't remember them ever specifically saying this, but I have seen them recently go to a lot of effort to balance the perk trees so that everyone wasn't clumping up in the Strength tree. I mean this entire alpha can be summed up into 4 major categories; Make the game prettier, make crafting more rewarding compared to looting, rebalance the perk trees, enhance the survival aspects of the game. They've absolutely nailed the first one from the new assets to the new pois to the improvements to RWG to the new hazards to the optimization. The list goes on if you're unclear by what I mean when I say "prettier' The second and third ones are indisputably just not there yet. I mean they're very close and I'm sure they'll get to dialing them in as soon as they clear the rest of stuff on their plate at the moment. The fourth one, again I think that they've absolutely nailed it because they've provided multiple paths that the player can address it. So that doesn't mean that you get to take it out on me because I happened to remind you of something someone else said, does it? Your response quoted me and was thus directed at me not those others. Yes, I do have the tendency to respond in kind. I do apologize for annoying you by responding to everyone else that isn't you. Take it up with them. I'm fine with that considering that up to the very end you continue to misstate my position. There is nothing "doom and gloom" about any of my posts and that appears to be you projecting the attitude of others from an entirely different thread onto me. I don't know how many times I have to say it but this could be easily fixed to provide a broader game experience without affecting the core balance for any other players. That's not only positive, that's wide eyed optimism and faith in the dev team. Thanks for playing. Have a wonderful day.

If I'd meant baseline 'playable state of the game' I would've said exactly that, in exactly that word order. I did not. Okay, and I'll keep this as simple as possible, tell me how you can get the books you need to level up tool crafting if you're only selling the resources you're gathering from mining, lumberjacking, hunting, or selling crafted items in hopes that the trader will have the right books at a reasonable price? Does averaging 4k hours per alpha since a15 count as being afraid to learn the ropes? What is it with everyone having to take these kind of pot shots anyway? No, I never said anything about how you should play. In fact, you're apparently playing something akin to my default build a couple levels below what I'm used to. That's good, it shows that you're a player of taste and discernment. However, that doesn't negate the fact that people use "Just mod the game" to end all discussion of anything that might be considered a flaw, albeit temporarily because the game is still in the public testing phase, in their one true love of a game. It's a cop out answer that's become too glib and easily delivered around here, and it really doesn't serve any good purpose. I hope that's made things a little clearer for you.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to be condescending or dismissive there, but it does kind of sound like it. Yes, and you might just remember the only other time I brought up a topic on this board, it was specifically because it was unlikely to be picked up by telemetry or short cycle testing. You were the one that moved the entire discussion to overflow and apparently there was value in doing so because they've increased the number of bones and solved the late game glue problem for that 'extreme' playstyle of doing horde night with nothing but exploding arrows or bolts. This isn't really much different, is it? I'm not sure how telemetry is going to pick up a new player deciding that they're going to be a miner and sell to the trader in order to buy books, finding out that it doesn't work, saying, "Okay, fine I'll do it your way" only to get lumped in with everyone already doing that. It just makes that one game loop to rule them all look more popular. What exactly is lost by other trees being on par as an economic alternative to Better Barter, Daring adventurer? I'm not suggesting that Intellect is so OP that it needs to be nerfed, only that primary resource gathering be equal in exp/duke gain to it and that the critical books that every tree needs, tool crafting and workstations, be more frequent at the trader. I mean, if a player wants to scrap everything in sight they ought to be able to level up that skill and afford books on crafting better tools, right?

Yes, but these are previously available playstyles that have perks built in to support them. If there is something unintended here it's more likely an oversight in balancing that hasn't yet been completed because this is still experimental. Yes, except that no one is claiming that the game is dead. If you'd been paying attention you'd know that I merely reported a balance issue for a very particular set of circumstances, suggest a set of tweaks that would reintegrate those playstyles without affecting the balance for any other and suggest that it be tested. Since that point a significant portion of the people on this board seem to have taken it upon themselves to berate me for doing so. I don't know if it's just poor reading comprehension, some sort of weird projection, knee jerk contrarianism, or something else, but it is annoying as hell. I think they can be by increasing the likelihood that critical ones appear at the trader and/or increasing their drop rate overall. Then perhaps you should review your own posts accusing others of being upset or otherwise engaging in histrionics and hyperbole while simultaneously misstating what it is that they were saying in the first place? I mean, ya know... 🤷‍♂️

If you play it in exactly the right way under the right circumstances, sure. I mean. single player is a breeze and even easier if you choose to spawn near a city as opposed to wilderness or the flagship map, but if you take the 'sandbox' designation of the game seriously and attempt to deviate from the quest focused gameplay loop you're going to have a much harder time. Reject that gameplay loop entirely and yes, it becomes unplayable. That's the context that you stripped from my statement just to play the contrarian. You might not be aware of this but any time there are any suggestions around here that the game is not absolutely perfect in every way the immediate kneejerk response is, "So what, just mod it." You may also not be aware, but the "unplayable" comment was specific to a set of circumstances and not the game overall. I really hate being taken out of context. Thanks for playing.

The dew collector isn't even necessary if you have that lake near you. You can avoid the problems of drinking murky water with points into iron gut, vitamins, and the teas you can make with the murky water you loot from pois. Just remember to fill the container that is your player beyond the point where the meter says they're full.

It's not about leveling quickly on crafting magazines but being able to level at all. What exactly do you find extreme about miner 69er and Motherload given that you really don't need them at all since you're just going to be out constantly looting and will be able loot or buy more than enough resources to build the bare minimum base on top of some roof somewhere? Are those perks there just for RPing or some late game vanity project? Why even bother putting them into the game at all? What exactly do you find so extreme about allowing primary resource gatherers the ability to buy books from the trader without having to take time away from their chosen profession to go do gopher jobs for a trader that's going to make the necessity of those books moot by offering to sell you what you want regardless? This isn't about extremes, this is a basic economic balance issue given that crafting books, exp, and dukes are all part of the game's economy, and heavily favors one tree in particular.