Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth Look i know it´s possible that´s all what i am saying. The solution TFP presents is NOT the only solution possible. Do you understand that now or do i need to tell you in caps lock that i simply only showed that TFP didn´t come up with the only solution possible nor with the most reasonable solution possible?

 

I can easily agree to it not being the only solution. And if by "reasonable" you just mean "immersive/realistic", then I would agree as well.

 

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

I don´t know why you get so hostile, it´s almost like you made this and are now angry because people don´t like it and god forbid, even have own ideas. How dare we have our own opinons.

 

Nothing hostile in my answer to my knowledge, sorry if you have that impression.

 

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

It´s not my job to come up with solutions, nor do i have to provide every detail needed jsut to be allowed to voice my opinion that the existing one is bad. If TFP doesn´t want people to voice their opinion then they shouldn´t reveal any details.

 

 

 

Churchill once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”. I agree that you don't even need to show that there are more immersive solutions. Almost by definition anything that simulates real life in greater detail is more immersive for example.

 

Only when you would claim that solutions exist that are actually "better" overall in solving the game play issues (like a good way to have water scarcity in the game) then I would object and ask for an actual method as proof.

 

If you didn't do that and I just misread, then my objection is moot.

 

[zztong]

14 hours ago, meganoth said:

Go on. Your idea is to make the process more complicated or timeconsuming. I don't see how exactly more complicated helps here. Are we talking "new-players-won't-understand-it-and-die-of-thirst"-complicated? Obviously TFP can't go that far. But then what?

 

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but to me it isn't water that is scarce. It is the knowledge and resources needed to purify water that is rare. Most people think boiling water is enough to purify water. It's an important part, but not a complete answer. But that's reality and the game is more important, which comes down to what the goals are for the game's experience. Like many (most?), I'm happy to wait and try A21 in the spirit of the evolution of the game, experimentation, etc. I may even like it. I'm trying to keep an open mind despite my criticism. I suspect TFP and I have the same goal -- a more lengthy period of time where water is relevant to game play.

 

What I see right now, based entirely on what has been presented, is that fresh water scarcity is desired and that the scarcity goes away around day 3-5 depending on when you can get a water filter and make a dew collector and that murky water is a common drop that can be converted to boiled water once you have a cooking pot, also probably meaning potable water is not an issue after day 3-5. Somebody who runs everywhere might need two Dew Collectors or at least dedicate one spot in inventory to carrying around a cooking pot so they can boil what they harvest from POIs when they need it. (I usually carry a pot and a grill, but then I'm prone to play as a nomad, so "home base" is my vehicle's inventory.)

 

After day 3-5, players with goals that require a larger volume of water still have to work to improve their capacity to generate water, which will be in the form of more and more dew collectors.

 

Carrying water away from a lake works around TFP's ability to control the pace at which murky water is found. They can otherwise control the loot lists and tune murky water so that it is more or less common.

 

So, to me, I wonder if this new arrangement actually achieves the goal. If the goal is water scarcity for 3-5 days, then it sounds like it does. I look at 3-5 days and think it could be longer. To make it last longer, I think the best course of action is to make it so that boiled water still has a chance of dysentery. This leaves the more advanced water (made with coal and a plant) to represent potable water. Dew Collectors and Boiled Water becomes an important step, but not a complete answer.

 

Thus, back to the opinion I expressed above in this post, the limiting factor blocking unlimited potable water isn't really the availability of murky water, but the knowledge and tools to make potable water, which I think can involve more in-game effort to establish and lead to a scarcity period longer than 3-5 days. It wouldn't really matter if you can carry water away from a swimming pool, unless murky water were good enough for most recipes.

 

Which is the better game in the eyes of the masses? I have no idea.

[Riamus]

15 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

in a21 the buckets are ONLY used to transport water to a spot that you designate such as you created a swim pool/spa/drinking hole or whatever.

 

that bucket can not be put on a campfire or any fire to boil water. sorry 

 

Oops, that was a typo. I meant can't.  I'll fix it to avoid confusion.

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

i myself will be glad when 7dtd is gold then all the rumor vines can be cut/mowed down.

Lawnmower vehicle confirmed? 😁

[bdubyah]

6 hours ago, Laran Mithras said:

Do the devs intend to make the game harder to mod when it finally goes "gold?" I mean, if the game is still just as moddable, then people endlessly griping should be able to play exactly the way they want.

 

Can a mod or dev answer this simple question? Will the game still be moddable? 

As Joe already answered, TFP has always been very supportive of modders. I don't see that changing as it just keeps their game alive even longer.

To your point about complainers just modding the game to their liking, I've noticed a lot of people here seem to have about the same feeling running a mod as turning the creative menu on. Even if it's a simple xml mod to change the values of water, they'd rather cry to TFP to change it than install a small mod to do it for them. Some kind of...purist mentality or something. But there have been several that always just shrug off the suggestion of mods as if that taints their game or something. It's real odd to me. Why just use a mod and enjoy the game when you can waste your time crying to TFP about stuff that likely isn't going to go your way, amirite?

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

As Joe already answered, TFP has always been very supportive of modders. I don't see that changing as it just keeps their game alive even longer.

To your point about complainers just modding the game to their liking, I've noticed a lot of people here seem to have about the same feeling running a mod as turning the creative menu on. Even if it's a simple xml mod to change the values of water, they'd rather cry to TFP to change it than install a small mod to do it for them. Some kind of...purist mentality or something. But there have been several that always just shrug off the suggestion of mods as if that taints their game or something. It's real odd to me. Why just use a mod and enjoy the game when you can waste your time crying to TFP about stuff that likely isn't going to go your way, amirite?

I can partly understand that attitude, actually. I think even those who criticize TFP, unconsciously admire the way they try to balance the game. So, if anything they ask for passes the devs test, then it's an official recognition that their idea was good and balanced.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but the core issue that many have with mods, is that modders seldom need to worry about game balance too much (if at all), so it's like winning a fixed match, and you simply can't have the same kind of feeling of achievement. The exception is for overhaul mods that often try to make explicitly the game harder and dedicate more time to connect several changes together in a more balanced (or at least in a no-nonsensical) way.

[Riamus]

35 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I can partly understand that attitude, actually. I think even those who criticize TFP, unconsciously admire the way they try to balance the game. So, if anything they ask for passes the devs test, then it's an official recognition that their idea was good and balanced.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but the core issue that many have with mods, is that modders seldom need to worry about game balance too much (if at all), so it's like winning a fixed match, and you simply can't have the same kind of feeling of achievement. The exception is for overhaul mods that often try to make explicitly the game harder and dedicate more time to connect several changes together in a more balanced (or at least in a no-nonsensical) way.

Yeah, I am one who rarely uses mods in games even if there are good ones out there.  There are a couple reasons for that, at least for me. 

 

First, I always work toward achievements in games and most games don't allow achievements while using mods.

 

It can also be a pain finding mods that I actually like.  Too often, a mod will add or change things that I don't want beyond the things I do want.  I commented on that in a thread a little while ago where I mentioned that I love all the vehicles that one of the vehicle mods here add to the game, but I don't want all the parts you can loot filling up my inventory with stuff I'll never use or only use to make one or two vehicles.  That outweighs the benefit of the new vehicles for me.  That happens too often with mods that do more than one thing.

 

Mods can also break with new versions of the game and mod authors don't always update them, causing you to not be able to continue using the mod.  Once you are used to using one and having it no longer available it's just as bad as having major changes that we see happen each alpha with this game that we may perceive as bad.

 

In the end, I prefer to see things added to vanilla than need to use a mod for them... as long as they make sense for the game.  There are some mods that clearly wouldn't be good to have built into the game itself. 

 

The exception I make is for things like maps in other games or prefabs in this one.  I don't mind using them.  As for other mods, I'll tend to wait to use them until I'm tired of playing the game and need something to keep me interested. 

 

Again, that is just how I view mods.  There are many great mod authors out there for all kinds of games and I support what they do even if I normally won't use the mods.

[RipClaw]

8 hours ago, Laran Mithras said:

I mean, if the game is still just as moddable, then people endlessly griping should be able to play exactly the way they want.

I think at the moment modding is too complicated for the majority of players, even if tools like the modlauncher and tutorials try to remedy this.

 

The situation will certainly improve with the integration of the Steam Workshop, but even that has its limits.

For example, players want to have certain things but there is no such mod and they do not have the required knowledge to create a mod on their own.

 

[bdubyah]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I think at the moment modding is too complicated for the majority of players, even if tools like the modlauncher and tutorials try to remedy this.

Sigh... Yeah, this is probably part of the issue. Copy/pasting a folder is definitely too much to ask of a lot of people. And that isn't sarcasm, just the simple truth. Lol.

[WarWren]

TFP can absolutely make lore to justify dew collectors in a zombie apocalypse. Toxic water cannot be made clean by simply boiling it. Personally I'd like to see a distilling device as an advancement on the dew collector. Moreover, taking jars to a river for water isn't a done thing. Taking buckets however....we can still do that. Whatever we feel about what should or shouldn't happen we are really just accepting our own version of fantasy because there are zombies after all.

[Zombiepoptard]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, Roland said:

 

That wasn't my point. I'm sure you are fully aware of what you like and dislike.

 

My point was that TFP isn't going to go back on their design before the community tests it. Welcome to early access. We've been here 9 years already...

has it really been 9 years

[faatal]

3 hours ago, WarWren said:

TFP can absolutely make lore to justify dew collectors in a zombie apocalypse. Toxic water cannot be made clean by simply boiling it. Personally I'd like to see a distilling device as an advancement on the dew collector. Moreover, taking jars to a river for water isn't a done thing. Taking buckets however....we can still do that. Whatever we feel about what should or shouldn't happen we are really just accepting our own version of fantasy because there are zombies after all.

Toxic water is a solution I've thought would work, but it means no drinking from lakes and maybe swimming causes health loss, so not as nice to players.
Or radioactive...

Edited January 15, 2023 by faatal (see edit history)

[Blake_]

@faatal I have a few questions:

 

1- Do you know if there are any major features in the works for a21 that have not been revealed yet?

2- Are wandering sleepers a thing in a21?

3- Is Zd dismemberment implemented in all the models for a21?

4- How are the bug fixes coming along? How many MF are getting on the team's nerves?

5- Are you guys in content lock for a21?

6- What are you working on at the moment?

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Blake_ (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, faatal said:

Toxic water is a solution I've thought would work, but it means no drinking from lakes and maybe swimming causes health loss, so not as nice to players.
Or radioactive...

The water would not even have to be toxic but just very dirty so that you have to run it through a filter to remove the mud before you boil it. Basically 3 stages of water. First muddy water, then murky water and finally clean water.

 

[jemriah]

new to the forum.. probably not the right place for this but I love 7d2d and I'm pretty desperate to start again in a21.. is there a release date coming? it's been over a year since the last major update and i am SO ready

[Callum123456789]

38 minutes ago, jemriah said:

new to the forum.. probably not the right place for this but I love 7d2d and I'm pretty desperate to start again in a21.. is there a release date coming? it's been over a year since the last major update and i am SO ready

there is no confirmed release date but as a reminder they reach out to streamers if the alpha will be done within 1-2 months as a current pattern shows so if they announce that streamers can get confirmed for early access thats when you know its not too far away.

[zztong]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The water would not even have to be toxic but just very dirty so that you have to run it through a filter to remove the mud before you boil it. Basically 3 stages of water. First muddy water, then murky water and finally clean water.

 

The game even has three waters:

 

Murky - w/Significant Chance of Debuffs

Boiled - Potable Water w/No Chance of Debuffs

Pure Mineral - Super Water w/Buffs

 

A small change I think gets you there:

 

Murky - w/Significant Chance of Debuffs

Boiled - w/Reduced Chance of Debuffs

Potable - w/No Chance of Debuffs

 

It puts more emphasis on cooking Teas.

It gives Iron Gut more utility.

 

Require the third water to be made in a Chem Station and I think you push the "gate" out several days of play.

Edited January 15, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Bobby Lee 298]

Is random zombie walk/run speed ever spoke about by TFP?

[meganoth]

21 minutes ago, Bobby Lee 298 said:

Is random zombie walk/run speed ever spoke about by TFP?

 

In what way? Random Zombie speed variation is already implemented as zombie rage-mode. When they get damage they have a chance to rage and move faster.

 

[Jost Amman]

26 minutes ago, Bobby Lee 298 said:

Is random zombie walk/run speed ever spoke about by TFP?

No random at the moment. But it would be cool to have completely random speeds for some zombies, independently of the game settings.  

[Callum123456789]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

No random at the moment. But it would be cool to have completely random speeds for some zombies, independently of the game settings.  

+1 to this that would be awesome it would make zombies a lot more unpredictable i can imagine looting a shamway then i see a darlene just jogging to me but then a big mama full on sprinting and me going "oh lawd she comin' 😆

 

[zookeeper]

6 minutes ago, Callum123456789 said:

+1 to this that would be awesome it would make zombies a lot more unpredictable i can imagine looting a shamway then i see a darlene just jogging to me but then a big mama full on sprinting and me going "oh lawd she comin' 😆

 

Don't be scared. Pull out ur pee shooter and splatter her. Then grab some popcorn and watch the outcome..lol

[zookeeper]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

No random at the moment. But it would be cool to have completely random speeds for some zombies, independently of the game settings.  

There is. Have you ever shot the policeman? Ie..

Play it more...lol

[BFT2020]

I believe random speed is already part of it, you just might not be seeing a significant difference in game so you might want to tweak values if you want more variation

 

    <property name="MoveSpeed" value="0.08"/> <!-- Just shambling around -->
    <property name="MoveSpeedAggro" value="0.2, 1.25"/> <!-- Chasing a target min/max (like day or night)-->
    <property name="MoveSpeedRand" value="-.2, .25"/> <!-- Rand added to min aggro speed -->
    <property name="MoveSpeedPanic" value="0.55"/>

 

This is from the zombieMale entity class.  Agro speed has variation but it looks like normal speed doesn't.

[User2010w]

Developers, please do the basic things"
1. Raise the drone one cube higher, it is inconvenient when it is opposite the sight, it flies in front of the face.
2. Remake large first-aid kits, a first-aid kit is where all the medicines are, but not one bandage of the best quality.
3.Change weapon reload! If I had recharged it at such a speed, I would have died 30 years ago. The reload animation and the need to wait for the end of this animation is no good! It is worth not waiting for a split second, and all weapons are not loaded!
Thank you!