Please REMOVE the Strip Club POI

[Listening]

 

So this is going to going to be controversial, but shouldn't be. There is currently a couple of POI's that are of concern, but the Strip Club is the biggy. I've been considering this post for some time but on seeing some of the A20 previews it seems like they are making more variations on this POI and therefore time to step up.

 

Note, I am the father of young women who love this kind of game. But I dont feel comfortable with the mysoginistic imagery of the Strip Club. Corpes of women in cages exaserbate the impact of a place that is all about objectification of women.

 

A test for this sort of thing, in my mind, is to consider if the game was designed by women would the POI have made it in. Fairly sure it wouldn't.

 

I do sense that TFP's do have some awareness of the issue. Female characters are getting better outfits; Stripper has actual clothes, nurse getting a typical gender neutral outfit rather have some cliche from the 50's (although every female character now has very large breasts which is also a real image issue for women). 

 

Please consider this feedback seriously. While the expectation is that the games market is male why put up barriers to females. More players equals more sales and a better community.

 

If you read this and agree please speak up.

[Maharin]

To be fair, they are not a needed POI for the game.  But it is also trivial for you or anyone else to remove them.  Modding the game is not only possible it is encouraged.  There will always be aspects of any game that someone out there will find objectionable for one reason or another.

 

As a father of 3 girls and being married to a military vet (my wife) I can also say unequivocally that not all women would consider the presence of these POIs as offensive or even objectionable any more than their presence in a movie would be.  The difference, as stated earlier, is that 7DTD allows the game to be modded easily so if you want the PG version you can have it.  As it stands, 7DTD shows that these things existed at the time of the apocalypse and were likely more popular after it started.

 

So my vote is mod it out if you don't want it along with every other POI you find objectionable and leave everyone else the option of leaving them in if they choose.

[Listening]

Maharin,

I have modded it out. That is not my point. The point is simply that it is offensive to some, that some being a gender.

 

Women have to cope and accept sexism in all its forms all the time. Agreed, this is not an in your face issue. It is part of a general societal position objectifying women. 

 

But since you've mentioned modding, don't you think it would be better to take the view that such POI's should be "Mod-In" if desired, rather than expecting people to take them out after experiencing them. 

[Telric]

"But since you've mentioned modding, don't you think it would be better to take the view that such POI's should be "Mod-In" if desired, rather than expecting people to take them out after experiencing them. "

Not at all. TFP, along with many, have no issue with a strip club POI, so it's absolutely within reason they would add it in to their vision of the game. Should it not line up with you personal views, that's on you to deal with. If they went through every complaint and removed things that people were offended by, we'd end up with minecraft... And even then, you'd have the parents saying those blocky zombies are too scary for their 3 year old...

Considering how easy it is to mod things out as opposed to mod things in, the ones who are offended should be the ones to mod it out. Creating a POI like the strip joint would take a few hours. The time it takes to mod it out of the RWG is probably 1 minute.

[geengaween]

I play 7DTD with my wife, she doesn't care about it and didn't even notice it. Strip clubs exist, every town has one. I think the vast majority of women aren't offended by things like this and don't expect special treatment or protection. Yours is a fairly Victorian mindset in my opinion, the belief that women have more delicate sensibilities and must be protected from crass humor or sexual imagery.

 

There are plenty of games nowadays that pander to people who are easily offended, you've got a huge lineup to choose from.

[Maharin]

36 minutes ago, Listening said:

Maharin,

I have modded it out. That is not my point. The point is simply that it is offensive to some, that some being a gender.

 

Women have to cope and accept sexism in all its forms all the time. Agreed, this is not an in your face issue. It is part of a general societal position objectifying women. 

 

But since you've mentioned modding, don't you think it would be better to take the view that such POI's should be "Mod-In" if desired, rather than expecting people to take them out after experiencing them. 

 

It is not offensive to every woman, you are exaggerating to make your point.  Also, it is something many, many men find offensive.  In reality.  This is a game, though.

 

Why are you offended by perceived sexism (it's a game, no actual women were mistreated in any way) but okay with other things like the violence?  No, I'm not attempting to change the subject I'm merely asking where does this line of thought end?  If you take out everything that could offend someone then you are left with Barney Hugs Someone Pretending To Be A Zombie.  Nobody wants to play that.

 

Seriously, please don't expect everyone to agree that removing potentially offensive material is always the best option.

[Badman82]

Yea I cant agree with this at all.  To me I see it no diff at all to going to a strip club in real life.  If your not old enough, or dont like, stay out?  Just dont go to them.  Its not like any of the POIs are absolutely needed anyway.  I have a teenage daughter, and I would have much greater concerns from a game as graphic as this.  And honestly if we are going to start getting soft about things, then the same thing can be said about anything in the game.  People from the south can complain about the stereotypical trader,  Blacks can get mad there are non of them in the game, Vegans can complain that animal meat is in the game, PETA lovers can complain about animal deaths,  I mean the list can go on and on.  Should we just cancel the game?  I cant stand cancel culture man.  This is a nitpick if you ask me.  The POIs in this game are fine.  If your butt hurt about strippers and women being objectified, I heard Ellen has a great podcast.  

Edited September 24, 2021 by Badman82 (see edit history)

[NukemDed]

what @badman82 said

@roland we need a new emoji please - one that simply indicates we agree with a post. not a like, mind you, more a, well, "i agree"

[Maharin]

9 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

what @badman82 said

@roland we need a new emoji please - one that simply indicates we agree with a post. not a like, mind you, more a, well, "i agree"

 

Knuckle rub sort of does that, but I agree... that an "I Agree" option would be a good thing.

[AtomicUs5000]

I disagree as well.

 
The problem we have is not the objectification of women, but the objectification of women without their consent or assuming that all women want to be objectified at any given moment. In a private adult setting, people of both sexes can enjoy being objectified with mutual consent. When it is brought outside of that and into public life, the workplace, or at any time a person wishes to not participate but another person attempts to force it on them, that is the problem.

 

Dare I say that strip clubs may even help reduce the occurrences of such behavior when it's inappropriate by directing it to where and when it is appropriate to alleviate these adult needs.

[Listening]

Lots of "my..." doesn't mind, and hey maybe strip clubs are really a good thing for society(WTF). Neither is the point. The principle is to not have gender as an issue in the game. To not perpetuate existing degrading meme's. Leave that stuff for the modders if you must. As I mentioned in the original post, I think the FunPimps are already, in some way, aware of the issue. This is demonstrated in the more reasonable treatment of the latest female models (Breast size excepted).

 

It's not in any way a significant change to the game play. It's not "cancel culture", a ridiculous term. But it is a change that does ever so slightly reduces a negative gender bias. I have over 2,500hrs in the game and enjoy it thoroughly. It is, but for this relatively minor issue, a great game.

[hiemfire]

Account 3 hours old. Only posts are on this thread, all of which fall squarely into the mantra of one of the current hardline political factions in the US. @Roland, @meganoth, or whichever mod may be perusing this, could we please get this thread locked before it follows the inevitable rails much further.

[Gazz]

Can we go back to the point where someone is letting a small child play M-rated games?

 

Of course there are reasons why they are rated as such.

[warmer]

I think we should choose the media we like rather than dictate media be to our liking.

 

If this was a gameplay mechanic I would have have that debate, but this is a game rating debate. Devs decide that. I personally don't want anyone's art to be restricted based on a minority of people that won't deem it acceptable.

 

Art isn't for everyone

Music isn't for everyone

Movies aren't for everyone

Games aren't for everyone

 

Allow creative expression or you risk making creators second guess everything they do, and in turn water it down until we get a homeopathic dose of a zombie apocalypse.

 

 

 

 

 

[Listening]

Hiemfire... yes account is new, so what. Is there some comment quota before you can make a post. I understand this is the normal way to provide feedback to the Funpimps along with feedback from others. That's what I've done.

 

Also Hiemfire... The views are somehow related to hardline US political faction.....what the hell are you talking about. I'm from a completely different continent that and have no interest in your bizarre politics.  Lock away....I've provided a comment and some follow up. That's it.

 

Gaz...  nobody that I know of is letting a small child play the game. Where the hell did you get that from.

[Skullfracture]

This has to be a troll, it reads like a 4chin parody of Tumblr.

[pgriffith]

Dear Fun Pimps,

 

Please make a new game called 7 Days to Die Snowflake Edition. Please remove anything that might be remotely sensitive to anyone that you could possibly think of, examples of such being, remove all blood, all gore, please ensure there is either an equal or greater amount of female zombies on screen at one time. We probably also need some gender neutral zombies as well, as well as some openly homosexual and lesbian zombies (not sure, how you'll achieve that, maybe give the lumberjack zombie a Karen haircut?). I also hope that you will not show animals in cages or even pens, that could be offensive to animal rights activists. Maybe the option to be vegan as well, so no animal by products in any of the foods represented in game. I also think any electricity in game be sourced from only renewable resources, so you better swap all vehicles for EV variants. And the last thing, maybe a non violent option to stop the zombies, maybe talk them out of hoarding on your base. I also want to complain about the Strip Clubs too, it looks like male strippers are horribly under represented in this game, and this needs to rectified immediately, I'm all for equal objectification!

 

That's all, thanks.

[Guppycur]

When did women become so stupid and their ability to think for themselves so curtailed that strip clubs, places they *choose* to work, places where they are quite frankly in way more control than men, objectify them?

 

If a woman chooses to "demean" themselves then who am I to judge them?

 

Your entire albeit well formulated and respectfully presented argument rests on two false notions, one being that you speak for all women and two that you're the arbiter of what they should and should not do.

 

You may want to look into your own view of women, if you find yourself believing them incapable of thought and free will, or incapable of being okay with their life decisions. 

[i3rend4nv05]

The pearl clutching is real

[Gazz]

6 hours ago, Listening said:

Gaz...  nobody that I know of is letting a small child play the game. Where the hell did you get that from.

From the OP.

[pApA^LeGBa]

The 2 women in our group love it. On youtube there was a series of 3 female gamers choosing it as their base.

 

Not all women have a problem with this POI. In fact this is the first occasion during 8 years that i see anyone having a problem with this.

 

I ask myself, do you speak up against strip clubs in RL? Are you taking actions to get them closed?

 

@Gazz Once you are over 40, everyone under 30 is young. She could be 25 for all we know. Young women isn´t a term i would use to describe a minor tbh.

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Urban Blackbear]

A little more variety in strip clubs would be nice. More pillowfights, more chalkboards, more pompoms, etc. Just minor things really but I think it would help spice things up. The buffet could use some work too. Overall I give the POI 7.5/10 tassels.

 

On a more serious note 7D2D is in Alpha so it's not officially rated by the ESRB but we all know it's going to get that M for Mature. Steam even warns that it "May Contain Content Inappropriate for Children".

[meganoth]

If problems would go away if we just don't mention them then removing that strip club in the game (and removing Guernica from the museum among other silly actions) would serve a purpose. Since it really doesn't (IMHO), the only purpose would be to give you (and seemingly you alone) a clear concience letting your young women play the game.

 

If objectification were the root of all evil to women, there wouldn't have been sex workers in puritan times. If objectification were the root of all evil we would have to change advertising as the most pervasive form of objectification.

I have my doubts whether a strip club shown in the game is objectification at all, as it shows the problem but never the women working there.

 

The alternative I would suggest is

1) Explain to your young women how sex workers are often exploited (beyond just objectification)

2) Try to improve the rights of sex workers in real life, not in games.

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kyonshi]

Im genuinely surprised he didnt complained about Trader Jen. Yet.

 

TC, your point of view isnt guidelines the Pimps should unquestionably follow because you think you're right. Or offended. Its just a perception. Or course there's forms of objectification in this world but women arent forced to work in strip clubs and most of them legitimately choose to perform as strippers. So not only you try caps-lock dictate what the Pimps should do with their own game, but you also state that strippers are poor victims of the mean males who get in clubs to admire them.

 

This is what the woke end of activism doesnt get : men look at women, women look at men. We all objectify a certain person to be the focus of our desires. This is life. And this will never change. Oh and btw, yes, this is cancel culture. Wokes are always denying it when being called out about it and now claim its a made-up term lol.

 

Anyways, you already have been told that you can remove the club yourself, and you even did! So, what do you want more?

 

If im offended by the way you elevate yourself above others as being morally superior and that you instruct people how to think the way you think, can i ask you to REMOVE your topic?

Edited September 24, 2021 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[Sarakatunga]

An unnecessary post there are more important things that have to be fixed.