Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

I’m guessing it conflicted with the city tile system but I’m not sure…only that it’s removal coincided with the implementation of the tiling system. 
 

Or maybe…just because, since @Selevan plays so many video games and therefore knows how they are successfully developed and is here to inform us from all their expertise through sarcastic responses to people asking questions of the developers. Lol

[SnowDog1942]

21 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

1.When you say 4x you mean that there are about four times less bumping and "lagging"  in the game in general as seen in the Unity performance tool as a result of your optimizations or are you bragging of a pure 4x across the board, like "I got 60 fps in the City in a20 and now I get 240fps"? 

 

Hate to burst your bubble but im fairly certain he meant map generation times.

[Blake_]

16 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Hate to burst your bubble but im fairly certain he meant map generation times.

Oh, I see. That might still be bragging though. I generate a 10k in 15-17 minutes in a20.6 with my min spec potato. that means that it should do it in about 4-6 minutes now. Awaiting a beer. And confirmation.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Blake_ (see edit history)

[Selevan]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I’m guessing it conflicted with the city tile system but I’m not sure…only that it’s removal coincided with the implementation of the tiling system. 
 

Or maybe…just because, since @Selevan plays so many video games and therefore knows how they are successfully developed and is here to inform us from all their expertise through sarcastic responses to people asking questions of the developers. Lol

Show me one game that changed it's fundamental systems for 5 times (and still didnt settle on how should their game work, other than "you have to scav, sry no other playing style"), removed half of the features, and is in works since 2013. Other than star citizen.

 

I'm only coming back every several months, cause i still cant copy with how did you guys make a complete mess of a game of such huge potential.

[Callum123456789]

1 hour ago, Selevan said:

Show me one game that changed it's fundamental systems for 5 times (and still didnt settle on how should their game work, other than "you have to scav, sry no other playing style"), removed half of the features, and is in works since 2013. Other than star citizen.

 

I'm only coming back every several months, cause i still cant copy with how did you guys make a complete mess of a game of such huge potential.

I don't see the need for the influx of of posts from you complaining recently 7 days to die is a great game yes there are bugs but you can get past most of these, you shouldn't just say about oh how the games potential has been wasted which in fact nothing has been wasted 7 days to die continues to get bigger and better with every update and there isn't any denying that.

 

There's no need to flood the forum thread with your complaints if you don't like the game anymore and feel that way mayhe it's time for you to step away and move on from 7 days and see how it is in a few years?

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Selevan said:

I'm only coming back every several months

Thank God!  Bye bye 

 

40 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

 I would also like to know how the dismemberment for all the zeds is progressing!

Oh, well, you know... just bits and pieces, here and there. 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[unholyjoe]

48 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

 I would also like to know how the dismemberment for all the zeds is progressing!

i cant explain but... the process is so demanding that heads are gonna roll.

also every now and then, zobbies can lend you a hand or leg or all.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Selevan said:

Show me one game that changed it's fundamental systems for 5 times (and still didnt settle on how should their game work, other than "you have to scav, sry no other playing style"), removed half of the features, and is in works since 2013. Other than star citizen.

 

I'm only coming back every several months, cause i still cant copy with how did you guys make a complete mess of a game of such huge potential.

 

@everone, this is at last a serious post not laid with sarcasm, and it deserves a serious answer.

 

@selevan:

How many games have you followed from earliest version to now? Not many. For me, I can only cite one other game, Factorio. Most other games are developed behind closed doors or put in EA when they are already nearly finished. So no, I can't give you another example, though I'm sure there exist other games that have done lots of experimentation, but behind closed doors.

 

Games like FIFA 15 for example don't need experimentation to develop, Electronic Arts just tells its developers to add at least one thing to be called a new feature (hopefully), adds conterfeits of new soccer players, some new graphics and calls it a day. But For FIFA 1 or whatever its first sports game ever was maybe 20(?) years ago even Electronic Arts did experiment to find what works and what not, because it was the first of its type. And they actually had to play around in the early versions to find out if they liked them or not, I'm pretty sure of that.

 

What you call a mess I would call a game that slowly solidifies into the game that will eventually be released. I can see less and less change occuring and all sorts of systems are actually fixed now (at least I don't expect them to change anymore). For me the crafting change is just a fix to the crafting progression that was inevitable as it was a subpar part of the game and something had to change there for sure. It is not fundamentally changing the game.

 

How do you define a fundamental change? Is the crafting change fundamental? If yes, maybe TFP should have advertised that their EA process will include fundamental changes so sensitive or change-averse players can avoid buying the game in EA. I don't really see the change as fundamental, crafting is just a small part of the activities in the game, and this change is only about the progression of it, crafting itself is not changed at all.

 

If you had a version you particularily liked you can always go back to that version. Steam allows you to download any version from 8 upwards, just be sure to use the launcher to clear any settings. But you are not in the position to declare which version gets to be the release version. Previous versions and features are not promises, they are just what TFP needed to find THEIR ultimate version. And I at least don't find this game a mess, I like what it became and I also tremenduously liked the journey of different alphas through the years to reach A21. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Selevan]

41 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Thank God!  Bye bye 

 

Oh, well, you know... just bits and pieces, here and there. 

 

Yeah, not like i would want to discuss with you. Last time when you asked me for arguments, i wrote a 500 words big essay, which suspringly, you ignored. 

[Doomofman]

31 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

i cant explain but... the process is so demanding that heads are gonna roll.

also every now and then, zobbies can lend you a hand or leg or all.

 

That'll stump em

[Jost Amman]

51 minutes ago, Selevan said:

Yeah, not like i would want to discuss with you. Last time when you asked me for arguments, i wrote a 500 words big essay, which suspringly, you ignored. 

Duh?? What? ... I must have missed it, I don't remember any reply from you. 

But you're right, I hate long walls of text. 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Selevan said:

Show me one game that changed it's fundamental systems for 5 times (and still didnt settle on how should their game work, other than "you have to scav, sry no other playing style"), removed half of the features, and is in works since 2013. Other than star citizen.

 

I'm only coming back every several months, cause i still cant copy with how did you guys make a complete mess of a game of such huge potential.

As @meganoth stated, most games are developed behind closed doors so we cannot see their creative process. But editing is a well known part of any creative process and to demand the creation of something without ever making edits is not reasonable.

 

Someone can certainly have the opinion that a rough draft is better than its final version. Since you’ve now delivered that opinion a few times since the time of A17 there is no need to keep doing it. The time where such an opinion might cause a turnabout is long past. Now it is just futile repetitive complaining for the purposes of trolling community members by derailing their questions. 
 

It’s natural for a child to pester and cry for a candy while in the checkout line. For them to still do it in the parking lot after having been told no, firmly, is just bad manners. For this game, we are in the bus about a block from arriving home and for you to still be going on about that candy back in the checkout line is just beyond rude and boorish behavior. 
 

Once and for all, the vision and potential you assumed and wanted for the game back in A16 was not the vision and potential the developers had in mind. No amount of pestering will change that at this point so it’s time to cope and readjust your expectations or move on to other games you enjoy. “Go back to A16 gameplay” is not useful feedback. 

[ltbrunt]

I now doubt A21 is coming out this year. With them keen on doing the streamer weekend, then release and possibly have to work during Christmas break. At this rate skip A21 and start working toward a release of A22 next year. We went this long waiting a little bit longer is not big a deal. I the game is playable in its current form. I have nothing to complain about. I rather wait for bandits in A22 or A23. We know updates are coming and that is good enough for me.

[Guest]

On 12/4/2022 at 2:38 PM, Doomofman said:

 

That'll stump em

 

I bet you were all fingers and thumbs while you type that while you hopped off to get a head with this armless fun

[BFT2020]

On 12/4/2022 at 8:13 PM, ltbrunt said:

I now doubt A21 is coming out this year. With them keen on doing the streamer weekend, then release and possibly have to work during Christmas break. At this rate skip A21 and start working toward a release of A22 next year. We went this long waiting a little bit longer is not big a deal. I the game is playable in its current form. I have nothing to complain about. I rather wait for bandits in A22 or A23. We know updates are coming and that is good enough for me.

 

You may not want A21, but there are those of us who are looking forward to it.  Better idea, you skip A21 while the rest of us play it  😁

 

You are also assuming that everyone at TFP are just working on A21.  While a lot of work is ongoing for the A21, I bet there is still work going on for other aspects of the game that are not ready for A21 release.

[lord_ahriman]

3 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

You may not want A21, but there are those of us who are looking forward to it.  Better idea, you skip A21 while the rest of us play it  😁

 

You are also assuming that everyone at TFP are just working on A21.  While a lot of work is ongoing for the A21, I bet there is still work going on for other aspects of the game that are not ready for A21 release.

 

Yeah, I hate the so called "Learn by Reading" doesn't mean I'm not gonna play A21. You need yo try, if you don't like I'm pretty sure there will be mods changing this.

[warmer]

On 12/4/2022 at 6:06 AM, unholyjoe said:

i cant explain but... the process is so demanding that heads are gonna roll.

also every now and then, zobbies can lend you a hand or leg or all.

I really want the ability to use a big booted biker leg as a club when my wooden one breaks. Even better... A frozen lumberjack leg would make a nice ping sound when whacked against a zed skull

[meganoth]

46 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Another "classic" thing removed. Yeah maybe even just removed "single" perks and left just categories to make this game even more casual xd

 

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

 

---> A 99.983% positive change 😉

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

 

---> A 99.983% positive change 😉

 

 

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

[Halcyon]

55 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

@Roland

 

II like the sex rex change ALOT, it frees up skill points.  Also,   not unlocking recipes via skill points also frees up points (which is also amazing).   This must feel great to play more freely and have points to spend.  However-- does it make the game way easier since you have tons of skill points to spare and put wherever you want?   or are there challenges that offset this?

 

IMO the freeing up of those skill points could make more playstyles more workable. All the crafting and combat bonuses of STR and INT likely had a disproportionate amount of players putting most of their skill points in those trees.

Maybe TFP wanted to even it out a bit more and make the previously weaker weapons more enticing now that strength doesn't have the jewel that was Sexy Rex?

 

As for the skill points freed up by Learn By Reading, i wanna guess and say that the new crafting system is going to be brutal(ly annoying) and will make that a lot harder and traders have obviously been nerfed a bit now too. So while our builds will be easier to make and more workable, the progression seems to be balanced much slower in A21 (from what we've seen obvs)

 

So my guess on how it's gonna go would be:
-Making a well rounded character is gonna be easier/faster.

BUT

-Getting better gear and general survival (thanks to water rework) is gonna be harder.

 

Which tbh, is a welcome change for me because this is meant to be a survival game so the main factor of your survival should be your own actual player skill rather than your characters in-world skill.

 

Maybe Roland will let us in on their TFP insider wisdom and confirm or absolutely smoke my wild speculation.

[meganoth]

37 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

 

A meme is nice when it otherwise doesn't distort or worsen the game. I'm all for keeping the turd or pistols in toilets, the latter could be called a meme by now.

 

But calling everything a meme just to keep it is just the same old fear of change a lot of players here have. Putting jars on a pedestal and calling them a meme is really strange.

Why would you think they are a meme now and not just that you became used to them? Sure, anything that you find in the game in the hundreds is burned into your brain. But that doesn't mean it is a meme or if it is that it is a positive meme.

 

There is nothing special about sexrex, except that the name is funny. Exactly the thing you are complaining about in respect to other things in 7D2D.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Halcyon]

20 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this - no this is "classic" elements -  like guns in toilets. "balance" I think is the best favourite arguments here with "make game funnier" - no - better to just some things as they are because are unique - most games don't have spear throwing, i think jar huting (because you lose them during making food) was pretty "meme" but in positive mean - sexual T-rex with miner 69ner was "meme" too. It's like - fix roarch in witcher 3. Could be done but better to left just because is classic. But nah "maker game funnier"

 

"most games don't have spear throwing"

Rust, Medieval Dynasty, Ark Survival Evolved, Conan Exiles, The Forest and pretty much every other survival game which has spears, has throwable spears. It's absolutely not a certified 7DTD original concept. "Classic" cannot apply to spears in this game anyway they were added like 3 updates ago. Throwable spears are not to this game what diamonds are to minecraft.

 

 

[Matt115]

20 minutes ago, Halcyon said:

 

"most games don't have spear throwing"

Rust, Medieval Dynasty, Ark Survival Evolved, Conan Exiles, The Forest and pretty much every other survival game which has spears, has throwable spears. It's absolutely not a certified 7DTD original concept. "Classic" cannot apply to spears in this game anyway they were added like 3 updates ago. Throwable spears are not to this game what diamonds are to minecraft.

 

 

Ok with one of this game are zombie game? okay you are new guy.  So you coudn't don't know what i mean. Only DL2. And dl2 spears are rly limited. 

3 updates ago is a lot in 7dtd situation. This is not  MD where updated were pretty offten.

 

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

A meme is nice when it otherwise doesn't distort or worsen the game. I'm all for keeping the turd or pistols in toilets, the latter could be called a meme by now.

 

But calling everything a meme just to keep it is just the same old fear of change a lot of players here have. Putting jars on a pedestal and calling them a meme is really strange.

Why would you think they are a meme now and not just that you became used to them? Sure, anything that you find in the game in the hundreds is burned into your brain. But that doesn't mean it is a meme or if it is that it is a positive meme.

 

There is nothing special about sexrex, except that the name is funny. Exactly the thing you are complaining about in respect to other things in 7D2D.

 

 

This is no fear. just... observation. I remember talk with my friends about hunting for jar, i saw a lot of complaining about losing a jar during cooking etc. So - if this was working good why to change? It was specific (jar while most games have bottles) and just removed loosing jar after cooking and i think it would be all - well not a lot of can be told about jars right? 

 

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

 

Yes cool name - that's all what you need - Elden ring have godskin, Cod - overgrown, stalker - cool names of characters etc.

If i hear - de dust - i think CS

when i hear - crowbar - half live2

cheeky breeky - stalker

shotgun range - cod

What about 7dtd -  miner 69er and sexsrex. what's in your opinion sounds more "characteristic"?

[Halcyon]

17 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Overall in my opinion this change regarding Sex Rex is a fantastic design choice and should encourage build diversity. Mining tools wasn't covered in the changelog, so I assume that Miner 69er will govern their own individual stamina reduction bonus per rank.

 

Yes, and it's gonna make the shovel cultists even more zealous.
 

20 hours ago, Roland said:

As you perk into tools it also reduces stamina use so Sex rex has been incorporated into tools as well.

 

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Removed : throwing spear,  water, now this

 

Um, I am pretty sure water is still in the game.  Otherwise faatal spent a lot of work on water mechanics for nothing  😉

 

Perks have to be revamped because of the changes to the crafting system.  So it is only natural to revisit all of the perks and see what makes sense and what doesn't.  And changing Sex Rex was a natural go.  If you look at the current system, strength tree has is OP when you look at melee fighting - it has sex rex as one of the perks you can spec into as you raise your strength level.  On top of that, once you complete the Batter Up book series, you get your stamina refreshed every time you get a kill.  So now with the change, other melee weapons can get a stamina benefit without having to drop up to 8 points in strength to max out Sex Rex.  Plus, other changes are coming that we won't find out (probably) until A21 is dropped - that has been hinted already by the people testing out A21 and visit the forums.

 

Jars - 

Quote

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

 

Depends on what you mean by not broken.  If by not broken means not having to make much of an effort to obtain water in the game, then yes, it is not broken.  But at that point, you might as well remove hydration meter and dirty water / boiled water from the game as it is trivial anyways - at most it takes up spots in your inventory.

 

If by broken you mean that it is just a trivial part of the game and really doesn't affect survivability, then re-examining the water situation and coming up with a new method is very much needed.

 

In addition, calling Sex Rex "classic" 7D2D is a stretch, a very big stretch......The current Attribute trees / Perks system we see today was no part of the original development stages in 7D2D.  If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).