Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Shado47]

I have clarified plenty of my statements and you chose to purposely misrepresent them to have a strawman to argue against. Like claiming I deliberately misled with my prior statements, when I had made my points abundantly clear.

You've tried to lump me in with the hater crowd, with people who "haven't played the game at all", have accused me of hating for the sake of it when I was offering constructive criticism, have had a constant condescending tone, and you've contradicted your own statements on a number of occasions, for example on the subject of Early Access.

 

I don't see this conversation leading to anything productive anymore, since anything I might bring up you'll just misrepresent or completely ignore anyways.

 

I have made my points, I don't want to be misrepresented anymore. Anyone who can read and can spend a few seconds thinking about the written stuff can easily identify what I meant by it. There was no need for this whole thing to become the dumpster fire it did, and I don't think it was right to antagonise me, and the user reactions my comments have gotten have been supportive of my views as well.

 

Feel free to attack me for this statement as well, I honestly don't care anymore. This has been a thoroughly dreadful "debate". Thanks for nothing.

 

Edit: I just went back to see if there was anything worthwhile to respond to in your message after all, to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But then I saw this condescending word salad:
 

Quote

lol...You've already admitted that you were exaggerating your claims on purpose and now you expect people to understand what you actually meant when you were purposely misleading us on your meaning in order to drive home a point? What is the point you were trying to make, btw, that needed you to mischaracterize the way features have been developed? Since TFP is constantly completely redoing features from scratch.... _______________________________________________! 

 

A) They don't know what they're doing!

B) They don't know what they want!

C) They have no plan and are just making it up as they go!

D) They are ruining features that were perfect with new features that suck!

E) All of the above!

F) Other!

 

And honestly your god complex disgusts me. Where have I said TFP is "constantly completely redoing features from scratch"? I never said constantly, I already elaborated on what I meant by "from scratch", putting both "completely" and "from scratch" into your strawman statement as well is redundant. And again, I didn't mischaracterize anything. The crafting system underwent deep changes that completely changed the way it was used, over the course of a ton of iterations, some of them more drastic than others in how much they reworked. Yes, code was probably carried over (but maybe it even wasn't - I would well suspect there to have been a full rewrite when the 5x5 grid was removed, to optimise the system since a whole bunch of features of the list aspect and codebase would've become instantly redundant, not to mention the list system immediately got expanded upon as well), but that is besides the point as already made.

 

And the whole ABCDEF thing... none of these are things I said. At most I thought more harmless versions of them. Like of B, yeah they're sort of aimless. But I still think they know what they want, and never said otherwise. C no they don't have "no plan", but they also don't have a proper roadmap. Saying the latter doesn't automatically mean I mean the former. D I never said they ruined any perfect feature, I never mentioned the word "perfect" to begin with, I never said any new features "suck" either, and the one time I mentioned that they ruin things was in a generalisation and obviously comedic exaggeration considering the context in which I wrote it, which was praise for the game and concern for the development direction, not hating or criticism without any point behind it.

 

Idk who you think you are dealing with, or who you think you are, but don't talk to me like I'm a child, or like you know exactly what I think of the game from the things you have projected onto me. For most of this conversation, you were only even addressing a strawman version of me you made up yourself. That is not respectful discourse.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Morloc]

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

Idk who you think you are dealing with, or who you think you are, but don't talk to me like I'm a child, or like you know exactly what I think of the game from the things you have projected onto me. For most of this conversation, you were only even addressing a strawman version of me you made up yourself.

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

Edited December 16, 2022 by Morloc (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

Anyone have the michael jackson popcorn gif handy?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

I have clarified plenty of my statements and you chose to purposely misrepresent them to have a strawman to argue against. Like claiming I deliberately misled with my prior statements, when I had made my points abundantly clear.

I’m sorry you see it that way. You eventually clarified what you meant but not until I pressed you on it. All you stated was that TFP completely redesigns feature from scratch. Maybe you didn’t think that was an important part of your message but I did and I wanted to snuff out that misinformation. 

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

You've tried to lump me in with the hater crowd, with people who "haven't played the game at all",

I never said that. I said people who haven’t played A21 can’t fully grasp the changes simply by reading text about it. You already brought this up and I already corrected you on it. 
 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

have accused me of hating for the sake of it when I was offering constructive criticism,

Where did I ever say that or even imply it?  You’ve mentioned your love of the game in several of your posts. I believe you. 

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

have had a constant condescending tone,

what makes you think my tone is condescending?  How do you know?  I’m not striving for it. A bit of flippancy yes but that’s all. 

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

and you've contradicted your own statements on a number of occasions, for example on the subject of Early Access.

 

where is the contradiction about Early Access. If you don’t want to point it out maybe someone else will?

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

There was no need for this whole thing to become the dumpster fire it did, and I don't think it was right to antagonise me,

I have kept my comments squarely on the statements you’ve been making. I haven’t attacked you personally at all. You are the one who keeps throwing insults at me— that I can’t read between the lines, I’ve got a God complex, I can’t figure out what any reasonable reader could, etc. I’ve been ignoring all of that to stick to the issues you brought up. Im glad you feel people here are supporting you. Im sorry you think Im attacking you. Im not—just some of the points you’ve raised that I feel are important to debunk. 

 

2 hours ago, Shado47 said:

And honestly your god complex disgusts me.

Say what?  If I was really that type of a person do you think you could have said any of this about me and it would remain?  
 

You love the game but you came here already aggressive from the start. I took issue with several of your initial statements and it has been you becoming more and more upset. Not me.  Why not accept the corrections I have made. Why not believe that I know what I’m talking about?  Why instead call me names and disparage me so that you can just reject what I’ve stated?

 

2 hours ago, Shado47 said:

Idk who you think you are dealing with, or who you think you are, but don't talk to me like I'm a child, or like you know exactly what I think of the game from the things you have projected onto me. For most of this conversation, you were only even addressing a strawman version of me you made up yourself. That is not respectful discourse.

 

A child?  Not at all. I’ve been addressing you like I’m someone who has the facts but you want to treat me as someone who just has an inflated opinion. You don’t think I know what I’m talking about so it makes you angry that I act like I do. 
 

At least that’s what it seems like. That is just my opinion as I don’t know you and can only go off of what you say. 
 

You began this whole thing by exaggerating your own claims by your own admission. That exaggeration was perhaps the gasoline for the dumpster fire. Maybe leave the accelerants at home next time?  😀
 

 

[Laz Man]

Hey Roland,

 

Thanks for always bringing the facts to the table.  You sir are Mastercraft at it *bows deeply*

 

There was so much back and forth between you and Shado, my eyes got crossed several times....🤪

 

I think even if you convinced him in any way, he is probably seeing so much red from "how" you presented it to him...😅

 

Shado,

 

Sure, development of 7d2d hasn't been perfect and has taken a long time so the feelings you project are understandable.   

 

However, let me reassure you the team is better then it has ever been and are committed to finishing the game.  Hopefully the changes and additions in A21 will be reflective of that once it is available to you to experience.  Hang in there.  🙇‍♂️

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I think even if you convinced him in any way, he is probably seeing so much red from "how" you presented it to him...😅

 

Well if the "how" was poorly delivered then I apologize. Again, my focus is on the misinformation and not on the person delivering it. I've gone back to look at anywhere where I attacked the person instead of the idea or concept and I'm not finding it. But maybe someone can point it out to me.  Remember that someone can "see red" also when they can't make a compelling argument and get shut down....it isn't just because they've been attacked personally. 

 

There are people who come here desiring information and wanting to understand how it all works. They ask questions and give us the benefit of the doubt when we answer. Then there are people who come here who have already decided for themselves how it all works and they don't desire any information. They just want to push their opinions and assumptions and conjectures about how they think it works. Sure, they are going to see red if someone from the company pokes holes in those assumptions.

 

This isn't really even about Shado47. He is just repeating the same  speculations that you can read on Steam, Reddit, and Twitter. They are speculations based on cynisms and assumptions that the worst possible motives must be the reasons for why things happen. What? The game has been in early access for 9 years? Well then they are obviously milking it.  What? They've changed how crafting works? Well then they obviously don't have a plan or are completely lost or incompetent. What? Bandits have been delayed to A22? Well they are obviously out of their depth so if bandits ever do come they'll be zombies with guns and that's it. 

 

These arguments are repeated and pretty soon assumed as the only truth. Do they come here and ask you or I or anyone who actually knows the answers, "Hey Laz, why has the game been in early access so long?" or "Why is 7 Days to Die using early access so differently than other studios?" No, they come here and just state like its a fact that the devs are milking early access (somehow?) and when their insult gets challenged they see red. Instead of thinking, "Huh, maybe all that speculation I've been reading is just a bunch of guessing of motives by random cynics but now I have an explanation from someone actually in the company", they just get mad and cling to those guesses like its gospel.

 

Anyway...I'll back off. I have laid out TFP's side. People have to decide if I'm being honest or if I'm just spinning talking points to make the company look good. Its easy to believe the worst in a person or a company. I've worked with the TFP guys now for about seven years and they are a great group of people. Anyone who knows Rick would never accuse him of simply milking early access for whatever benefit that supposedly gives companies. Anyone who sees the talented people we have on staff and the things that they are working on now would not assume they're out of their depth or lost or flubbing around just doing and redoing the same things because they need to avoid the hard stuff. I know for a fact that these doom and gloomers that try to cast the motives and plans of TFP in a bad light are just....wrong.

 

Good customer service though. You're the good cop. You won't get showcased on streams that way though...

 

 

[Shado47]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Shado,

 

Sure, development of 7d2d hasn't been perfect and has taken a long time so the feelings you project are understandable.   

 

However, let me reassure you the team is better then it has ever been and are committed to finishing the game.  Hopefully the changes and additions in A21 will be reflective of that once it is available to you to experience.  Hang in there.  🙇‍♂️

 

Fair enough. And Alpha 20 has been a huge improvement over any prior versions in terms of a lot of gameplay elements. I am not hating on the game. 7dtd is my fav game of all time. Alpha 21 doesn't currently look like it will match that level of being a step in the right direction though, for a number of aforementioned reasons. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong though.

And I agreed with Roland on a few points he made but he started off with such an attitude and misrepresented my arguments so often that it was just a thoroughly pointless conversation all things considered. How one carries themselves in an argument does matter after all. I appreciate your professional response. I'd wish I could expect the same level of professionalism from a "Super Moderator" (😂) as well. But I guess when nobody watches the watchers, conduct like that is inevitable.

[JCrook1028]

19 hours ago, Shado47 said:

They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing. Reinventing the wheel when its already functional.

That's the rub tho, the water system was not functional. it was nonexistent. D1 you had unlimited water.

[Shado47]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's the rub tho, the water system was not functional. it was nonexistent. D1 you had unlimited water.

I never said that system shouldn't be changed. I already iterated multiple times that I merely disagree on the solution. I don't dispute that there's a problem.

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

I never said that system shouldn't be changed. I already iterated multiple times that I merely disagree on the solution. I don't dispute that there's a problem.

 

Maybe it isn't always malice when people misunderstand you, maybe you sometimes just explain yourself in ways that can be misleading.

 

Quote

 

The water system idea I listed is obviously too big a base game change, but there was really absolutely no need to streamline the hydration system any further from where it already was. Making the water jars harder to craft would've been a far more sufficient fix.

 

This is probably my main gripe with 7dtd updates and has been for quite a while. They keep "fixing" systems that don't need fixing. Reinventing the wheel when its already functional. And this whole "level by reading" system they're doing now - I mean, the moment you stop and look outside of these forums here you can tell the wider community reception to that change is mostly negative, or at the very least very sceptical.

 

 

After reading it for the third time now I can see that you probably meant to say something totally unrelated and opening up a new discussion in the second paragraph here. But really, a lot of people here have assumed the comment in the second paragraph about "don't need fixing" to be a comment on the water system.

 

[zztong]

2 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's the rub tho, the water system was not functional. it was nonexistent. D1 you had unlimited water.

 

I would say Day 4 it was effectively unlimited potable water. It really kind of depends on when you find (or make) a cooking pot and had a large enough collection of jars to always have potable water when needed. INT focused people likely ended up with a cooking pot on Day 1 once they got a Forge working. Anyone else in solo play might go days dealing with potable water scarcity, drinking whatever came along until a cooking pot was found.

 

I'm really curious on what day the Dew Collector becomes available as it will also effectively be unlimited potable water even if still supplemented by purifying murky water found in POIs. I thought early reports were that might be around Day 4 as well. Rather than go to a river/lake/pool for water, folks will harvest their dew collector farm.

[Roland]

9 hours ago, Shado47 said:

And I agreed with Roland on a few points he made but he started off with such an attitude and misrepresented my arguments so often that it was just a thoroughly pointless conversation all things considered. How one carries themselves in an argument does matter after all.

 

If I misrepresented your arguments then I'm sorry. If I came at you too intensely and with a disrespectful attitude I apologize. I get that you love the game. I get that you are worried about some of the announced features of A21. There are some oft repeated accusations leveled at TFP that are not fair or truthful and when you mentioned a couple of them, it became my focus to show how they are false. I probably went too nuclear in that regard.

[Shado47]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Maybe it isn't always malice when people misunderstand you, maybe you sometimes just explain yourself in ways that can be misleading.

 

Fair enough. But I made an effort to clarify my statements more thoroughly after the first 1-2 times, and it kept happening. So maybe at the start, but eventually it was rather blatant misrepresentation, since I was still being strawmanned for early less clear statements that I had long since clarified in detail.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, zztong said:

I'm really curious on what day the Dew Collector becomes available as it will also effectively be unlimited potable water even if still supplemented by purifying murky water found in POIs. I thought early reports were that might be around Day 4 as well. Rather than go to a river/lake/pool for water, folks will harvest their dew collector farm.

 

The dew collector recipe becomes available on I think your 3rd Forge Ahead magazine. Then it just depends on how quickly you can get the materials to craft it. I'd say that Day 3-4 is a good average to have one dew collector in place. One dew collector will still require the player to make choices about how best to use the water they have. It won't get to the way it is in A20 until you have multiple dew collectors-- and that's fine, in my opinion. The goal isn't to keep water being a struggle forever, it is to create a progression from no water to all water needs solved.

 

The changes to A21 make that journey an interesting one based on my own experience.

[khzmusik]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 

The dew collector recipe becomes available on I think your 3rd Forge Ahead magazine. Then it just depends on how quickly you can get the materials to craft it. I'd say that Day 3-4 is a good average to have one dew collector in place. One dew collector will still require the player to make choices about how best to use the water they have. It won't get to the way it is in A20 until you have multiple dew collectors-- and that's fine, in my opinion. The goal isn't to keep water being a struggle forever, it is to create a progression from no water to all water needs solved.

 

The changes to A21 make that journey an interesting one based on my own experience.

 

Can I ask how this works now? I think maybe there's something I'm not getting.

 

From the notes (and discussion) the only change I see is that there are no more glass jars. Without glass jars, this means you can no longer get murky water from water sources (lakes, rivers, water in POIs, etc). I guess in A21 you can drink directly from those sources (with penalties) but you can't get a container of murky water to transport.

 

But it seems like this is the only change, right? It means that you have to either get murky water from dew collectors, or get it from the same places as always (toilets, kitchen cupboards, etc).

 

Is that right, or am I misunderstanding something?

[Syphon583]

5 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

 

Can I ask how this works now? I think maybe there's something I'm not getting.

 

From the notes (and discussion) the only change I see is that there are no more glass jars. Without glass jars, this means you can no longer get murky water from water sources (lakes, rivers, water in POIs, etc). I guess in A21 you can drink directly from those sources (with penalties) but you can't get a container of murky water to transport.

 

But it seems like this is the only change, right? It means that you have to either get murky water from dew collectors, or get it from the same places as always (toilets, kitchen cupboards, etc).

 

Is that right, or am I misunderstanding something?

Unless I'm mistaken, dew collectors produce clean water, not murky.

[khzmusik]

9 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, dew collectors produce clean water, not murky.

 

OK, that's fine, but then I guess I don't understand why folks are so against this change.

 

You could always find plenty of murky water. In the vast majority of my playthroughs, empty glass jars were mainly used to smelt in the forge into sand. There were very few times that I needed to use them to get more murky water. And if I couldn't do that, it's not like I would die from thirst, I just wouldn't have enough murky water to boil into clean water for meat stew.

 

The patch notes mention glue but it's not like there was ever any shortage of glue in the game. So I guess, I'm wondering why anyone would be upset about this.

[crazywildfire]

3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

The patch notes mention glue but it's not like there was ever any shortage of glue in the game. So I guess, I'm wondering why anyone would be upset about this.

 

That depends on your game settings. No loot respawn, low loot abundance. But with that said it does say glue making is in consideration so I'm sure it will be fine.

......

 

But to add... you will still be able to find murky water in loot. You just don't get an empty jar back from it anymore. Dew collector is the same will collect the water and it will show clean jar of water but when used it is gone with no empty jar back.

.......

 

I see both sides. It is what it is but it is water. Ark, atlas, conan, dayz, scum, project zomboid and so on. All these plus a few more liquids isn't an issue really but are part of survival. I don't know it isn't that big of deal it is water and you loose immersion doing it this way for what 4 to 10 game days then your fine again? Yes we know game play out beats immersion. But as said by 4th day you have a dew collector so what by day 10 you probably will have several. So it doesn't seem to add that much more value to loose the immersion over.

 

On the flip side. Is it that big of deal no. As said it is what it is. Do they get a little praise for not being like other survivor games and doing something different with water. Sure tilt my hat. So I can deal with either not mad but not happy just meh about it. 

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

The patch notes mention glue but it's not like there was ever any shortage of glue in the game. So I guess, I'm wondering why anyone would be upset about this.

It depends on your play style or specialization. For example, I had a playthrough with an agility built. I primarily used exploding crossbow bolts as my defense during horde night. I used about 100 of the exploding crossbow bolts per horde night, which required duct tape to craft. I would never get the necessary amount of tape or glue by looting alone.

 

It also depends on whether you craft your equipment or not. Glue or duct tape is needed for many items.

I am curious how much the consumption of glue or tape will increase in A21. The idea behind the new crafting skills is that we will craft our equipment not only once but several times over the course of the game.
 

 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

OK, that's fine, but then I guess I don't understand why folks are so against this change.

 

You could always find plenty of murky water. In the vast majority of my playthroughs, empty glass jars were mainly used to smelt in the forge into sand. There were very few times that I needed to use them to get more murky water. And if I couldn't do that, it's not like I would die from thirst, I just wouldn't have enough murky water to boil into clean water for meat stew.

 

The patch notes mention glue but it's not like there was ever any shortage of glue in the game. So I guess, I'm wondering why anyone would be upset about this.

 

The need for glue is highly variable. If you want to play as an "explosive" archer on horde night then (before A21 at least) you need a lot more glue than typical. People are adverse to any change for the worse, if they have played with unlimited explosive bolts for a few alphas they expect to be able to make unlimited amounts again.

 

Even without that, in a typical vanilla game my friends and I produced a lot of food and drinks, much much more than was necessary. And that needed a massive amount of bottles as well. Consequently it wasn't really seldom that we made jars in the hundreds and wasted them for food and drinks we just collected in chests to wither away. Not sure if some players even count that subconciously as water they need.

But mainly explosive arrows and bolts are mentioned as the area where a constant and high amount of water is needed. If you compare to the nearly umlimited amount of bullets you can produce (since dukes make the only problematic resource unlimited as well) then explosive arrows could be at a disadvantage now depending on balance

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

Alll good answers. I don’t think I can add anything except to say that players are going to have a period of time early on when they’ll have to choose how they use their water. There won’t be an unlimited supply until later and only then  if they have built the infrastructure for it. 

Water is less plentiful in loot in A21 than it is in A20 @khzmusik

[zztong]

6 hours ago, khzmusik said:

OK, that's fine, but then I guess I don't understand why folks are so against this change.

 

I don't care about the change from empty to virtual jars.

 

I support the survival struggle related to a scarcity of potable water. I appreciate the dew collector being in the game. I worry the capability it provides enters the game too early. Of course, I won't know until I've played A21 for a while.

 

I'm not a fan of being unable to transport murky water away from a water source. I think it is both irrational and takes away some interesting game play.

 

I'm hopeful that XML changes will allow a change from "clicking on a water source makes the player drink" to "clicking on a water source harvests a jar of murky water."

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Kevin10001 said:

Watch this quick video on how to edit the game yourself  - Very EASY  step by step guide

How about only making one post of your video and in the mods tutorial section, rather than 4 posts all over the place self promoting, even going as far as posting it in a help thread for the gaming consoles?  Wonder if you are a bot or trying to spam the forums…..

[zztong]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:10 AM, zztong said:

I'm hopeful that XML changes will allow a change from "clicking on a water source makes the player drink" to "clicking on a water source harvests a jar of murky water."

 

I'd like to propose a compromise between this idea and the announced direction for A21.

1. Clicking on a water source would harvest 1 jar of "putrid water."
2. Drinking putrid water would be the same idea as "murky water" but with a much, much higher chance of dysentery (50%?) and even more health loss (-10?).
3. Purification of putrid water into murky water would take a chemistry station, require coal (like mineral water; representing a filter) and perhaps an extended processing time. (30 secs?)

In this way, the A21 early game experience might remain as intended. The late game players can still scale up glue production via more chemistry stations and with more time invested gathering water if not using dew collectors, and humanity can still carry water from a lake as they have done since before recorded history.

Edited December 18, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

I can already see people sitting at a body of water spamming the E key for a backpack full of water jars. 😅