Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jost Amman]

16 minutes ago, Mad_Dane said:

Either you go questing and looting or you play the rest of the game with a T1 stone axe and bow.
Building in a voxel engine is what makes this game special, there is much much better survival games out there!
Forcing everyone to go loot completely defeats the purpose of making an open world game!
And in case that went over your head, I like building big VERY big and it's simply not feasible to do solo, before you have motor tools, harvesting skills and all workstations, with the slowed down progress (From when you killed learning by doing), I already needed to spend upwards of 300 hours in a single seed to make a large build and now you want to slow it down again, by forcing me to go loot 2000 magazines before I can even get started building big!

Edit: Crafting has been useless since you removed the ability to craft T6, it's basically only used to plug the holes from when RNGeesus hates on you, this new system won't fix that.

 

Oh, I see now... you're one of those types who want to get everything they need while sitting in a 100x100 blocks area, and then build a huge base there and become lvl.100 without having to EARN anything or go anywhere. Then I must say I'm happy you're not the one calling the shots!

 

And by the way... everybody knows that Learn By Doing is only good to appease OCD people who crave to see those popups that say you gained 0.0001 damage bonus on your pickaxe or that you can run 0.0001 faster. 

[Mad_Dane]

9 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Oh, I see now... you're one of those types who want to get everything they need while sitting in a 100x100 blocks area, and then build a huge base there and become lvl.100 without having to EARN anything or go anywhere. Then I must say I'm happy you're not the one calling the shots!

 

And by the way... everybody knows that Learn By Doing is only good to appease OCD people who crave to see those popups that say you gained 0.0001 damage bonus on your pickaxe or that you can run 0.0001 faster. 

Who the hell are you deciding what is fun for me? You think a large base is just handed to you? IT'S A LOT OF HARD WORK!
It's not about OCD, it's about having a life outside of the game, I'm an adult with kids, if I don't grind to get the best tools and skills, I would have to spend 10 x the time to get the same work done!
You can go loot if you want to, but making it the ONLY way to play an open world game is down right @%$#ed!
Condescending people like you, hating one the way other people play, is the very reason I almost never visit this forum!
Does it at least help your weak ego, when you get to do that?

[Jost Amman]

21 minutes ago, Mad_Dane said:

Who the hell are you deciding what is fun for me? You think a large base is just handed to you? IT'S A LOT OF HARD WORK!
It's not about OCD, it's about having a life outside of the game, I'm an adult with kids, if I don't grind to get the best tools and skills, I would have to spend 10 x the time to get the same work done!
You can go loot if you want to, but making it the ONLY way to play an open world game is down right @%$#ed!
Condescending people like you, hating one the way other people play, is the very reason I almost never visit this forum!
Does it at least help your weak ego, when you get to do that?

I really don't get it. You're really saying that spam-crafting axes to raise your crafting level is a much better way to spend your time? 

Have you even ever looted in this game? ... Sometimes you can find stuff that you need, in 1/10th of the time you'd need by crafting it with LBD.

If you don't go looting at all, how do you even pretend to get stuff?? Are you saying you'd like the game to craft everything there is just by sitting there at your spawn location?

Looting is an integral part of this game, so if you're saying you want the game changed to not rely on looting, then you've picked the wrong game.

 

It that's what you want, well, there's the cheat menu (F1), you can get whatever you want from there.

 

Also, the condescending one, it's you, since you're assuming I don't have a life.

The arrogant one, it's you, since you're telling us and the devs how THEIR game must be, in a rude way (to top it off).

 

You're also the one who's been name-calling and insulting, while I was just explaining why the gameplay style you're proposing is horrible in my view.

I guess I struck a nerve there... well, I don't care, you can feel offended all you want, but you can't stop me telling you what I think of your idea.

 

@Roland:

I see lately there has been an "insurgence" of trolls here on the forums (people who almost never posted before, btw).

They attack the devs and everybody who disagrees with their "extreme" opinions, and then they accuse you of what they actually did in the first place. *facepalm*

[SnowDog1942]

2 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Who the hell are you deciding what is fun for me? You think a large base is just handed to you? IT'S A LOT OF HARD WORK!
It's not about OCD, it's about having a life outside of the game, I'm an adult with kids, if I don't grind to get the best tools and skills, I would have to spend 10 x the time to get the same work done!
You can go loot if you want to, but making it the ONLY way to play an open world game is down right @%$#ed!
Condescending people like you, hating one the way other people play, is the very reason I almost never visit this forum!
Does it at least help your weak ego, when you get to do that?

Are u mad Dane?

Edited May 25, 2022 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Marvin77600]

2 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Who the hell are you deciding what is fun for me? You think a large base is just handed to you? IT'S A LOT OF HARD WORK!
It's not about OCD, it's about having a life outside of the game, I'm an adult with kids, if I don't grind to get the best tools and skills, I would have to spend 10 x the time to get the same work done!
You can go loot if you want to, but making it the ONLY way to play an open world game is down right @%$#ed!
Condescending people like you, hating one the way other people play, is the very reason I almost never visit this forum!
Does it at least help your weak ego, when you get to do that?

I almost never speak on this forum but when I see answers like this it saddens me, it's a survival game so I think it's a shame that it loses its difficulty for people who don't have much time to play it, what's so complicated about making a game last a year rather than wanting to speed up and casualize everything, especially if you're playing solo ? The game loses its interest and its charm and all this to attract a larger audience

[mstdv inc]

4 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Either you go questing and looting or you play the rest of the game with a T1 stone axe and bow.
Building in a voxel engine is what makes this game special, there is much much better survival games out there!
Forcing everyone to go loot completely defeats the purpose of making an open world game!
And in case that went over your head, I like building big VERY big and it's simply not feasible to do solo, before you have motor tools, harvesting skills and all workstations, with the slowed down progress (From when you killed learning by doing), I already needed to spend upwards of 300 hours in a single seed to make a large build and now you want to slow it down again, by forcing me to go loot 2000 magazines before I can even get started building big!

Edit: Crafting has been useless since you removed the ability to craft T6, it's basically only used to plug the holes from when RNGeesus hates on you, this new system won't fix that.

 

Honestly, I see your style of play like this:
you buy a car, but for some reason you don't drive it, but instead use it as a storage place for things you don't need.
The game implies that you will use all its mechanics, which means that at least sometimes you will complete quests or rob buildings.
If you prefer to dig and build, maybe creative mode is better for you?
With your playstyle, you won't need most of the perks anyway, as they are all about exploring, gathering, attacking, or defending.
I also love to build and 80% of the cobblestones and cement I bring during robberies, I noticed that I can’t even get past the cobblestones or cement in any building, and when I see someone on a video or stream pass by, I want to shout "hey "You're missing out on building resources, come back immediately!" 😅
It seems that the point is not in the game and its direction, but in your style of play. The game gives you a choice of how you want to play it.
You can play without merchants, you can play without crafting, you can play without a horde, but exploring the world is the basis for survival. In a zombie apocalypse, you can’t sit at a remote job and order food at home)

[Diragor]

6 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Making an open world crafting game, where you gimp crafting (Best items can only be  looted) and where you force every one to play ONE WAY, go loot or build your gdamn castle with a stone axe and be a gimp forever!
What is with your damn fetish for forcing everyone to go loot?

You don't have to loot at all. Buy them from traders, get them in zombie bag drops

it's just slower so you have more from the game

can you all just stop complain and test it before you argue

[Laz Man]

7 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Making an open world crafting game, where you gimp crafting (Best items can only be  looted) and where you force every one to play ONE WAY, go loot or build your gdamn castle with a stone axe and be a gimp forever!
What is with your damn fetish for forcing everyone to go loot?

 

Hey Mad_Dane, I can see that you are very passionate about the way you want to play the game.  I can empathize alittle on how you feel since the game continues to change in a direction that doesn't appeal to you.

 

However, the devs have a different view on how 7d2d should be played.  The game is a unique blend of genres and it was decided along time ago looting would be a major focus within the game.

 

You may not agree, but there is nothing wrong with that decision.  There is no cookbook on how open world crafting games should work.  Let alone a genre hybrid like 7d2d.

 

You have several options at this point.  

 

1) Find something fun in the game to enjoy.

2) Explore modding options to change the game to how you would like it.

3) Search elsewhere for a new activity/game to enjoy.

 

If you genuinely want an open discussion about your concerns with the game's direction, I encourage you to leave the emotions at the door.  This is a discussion forum where folks can exchange viewpoints on the game.  Hard to have a discussion when you demand things one way and start name calling/insults.  

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

6 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Either you go questing and looting or you play the rest of the game with a T1 stone axe and bow.

That is just not true. How are you getting the motor tools now, may I ask? There is no perk that grants the recipe for those. Really, the only change is for the primitive level tools and a few other recipes. Most craft recipes have had to be found or purchased for years now. How are you avoiding using a stone axe and primitive bow for the whole game right now because it will be the same way you avoid it in A21.

 

6 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Building in a voxel engine is what makes this game special, there is much much better survival games out there!
Forcing everyone to go loot completely defeats the purpose of making an open world game!

If you don't care for the survival aspect of the game then what do you have against enabling the creative menu? If you enjoy harvesting and crafting all the materials yourself you can at least give yourself the best tools right from the start. You've just admitted that if you want to play survival you will play something else and you only play this game for the building aspect. That's what the creative menu is for. Our level designers who create POIs for the game use the creative menu where they can do huge builds and have every decoration and every block type and every texture available to them. That is the freedom you probably desire.

 

An open world game doesn't mean there are no rules or restrictions. It means you aren't on rails shooting at stuff or following a predetermined path. You can go anywhere and in this game break most anything. This game has always had looting and it has always been an important part. It would be like buying a racing game but you don't like racing your car, you like working on it. But it is a racing game and so the developers add a rule that the best rewards and access to new cars comes from placing in races. So you complain that you are being forced to race when what you want to do is stay in the garage and tinker with your car but now you're mad that you'll be forced to go out and race.....in a racing game.

 

Like it or not this is a crafting and looting game. If all you want is a sandbox to build in then that mode is enabled as soon as you turn on the creative menu. Without the creative menu this is a game with rules that carry restrictions first and foremost with sandbox elements.

 

6 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

And in case that went over your head, I like building big VERY big and it's simply not feasible to do solo, before you have motor tools, harvesting skills and all workstations, with the slowed down progress (From when you killed learning by doing), I already needed to spend upwards of 300 hours in a single seed to make a large build and now you want to slow it down again, by forcing me to go loot 2000 magazines before I can even get started building big!

 

No you don't. You are choosing to do stuff you hate in order to get to the point where you can do stuff that you love. Turn on the creative menu and you can start from Day one doing the stuff that you love. Why not try it? You've stated now in this and responses below how much you hate the survival game aspect of 7 Days to Die. Well, nobody is forcing you to partake in that despite what you claim. You have the freedom to toggle one single option in the top menu and everything you love about this game will be emphasized and everything you hate will be gone and it really will be a true sandbox.

 

Finally, learn by doing would have been the slower progression for you. The only way to improve your building and tool stats would have been to use them and that's it. In the common pool method we currently have you earn xp from everything you do and all the points you earn can be funneled into the improvements you care about. Help defend on bloodmoon night and gain 4 skillpoints? Those can all be spent on building skills whereas with learn by doing nothing from horde night would have applied in the least to your favorite activity. But regardless, it is pretty ridiculous that you have been steaming about having to spend 300 hours of each playthrough doing stuff you find annoying for the past few years when you could have skipped those annoying hours and just been doing what you enjoy. Why torture yourself when the freedom to play how you want is one option away?

Edited May 25, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

7 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Don't want a delivery service, just want to craft my own gear when I have mined resources and processed them!
I have played since 2013 and they have done nothing but slowing down progression and forcing people to play one way, ONLY THE WAY MAD MOLE LIKES OR GTFO!

 

There is a very helpful modding community around that will assist other players in making adjustments to the game to make it aligned more with the way they want to play.

 

Sometimes we get what we want in a game, sometimes the vision from the development team is different.  Some people choose to complain about those changes; I prefer to figure out if I can modify the game to get it more aligned with what I want to see.

[BFT2020]

I don't understand why people need to say things like "your idea is garbage".  Sure you may not like the idea, but it is just a difference of an opinion.

 

I for one would like tools and equipment to have a limited durability.  If the TFPs have the same vision, Great!  If not, that is fine.  But we should always agree to disagree in a civil manner rather than calling someone's ideas garbage just because we disagree.

 

/ quietly checks to make sure I didn't call someone's idea garbage in the past instead of just disagreeing with them

11 hours ago, Roland said:

haha..I'd rather use my hard-earned tools until they are used up and then hard earn another one. That whole process of earning the tool is fun, no? Its part of the gameplay and personal objectives we have. You spent weeks in game anticipating and working towards getting that great tool. Once it finally wears down and is gone you get to experience that journey again to get another one though it will probably be easier this time.

 

I like this idea really.  I started out initially removing the ability to repair T0 equipment, but lately been thinking of expanding it to all tiers of equipment.  Having your equipment break in your hands if you use it too much adds a lot more excitement in a fight for your life; and makes you have to plan ahead - Do I use a spot to take a backup weapon or risk my weapon having enough durability to last me until I get back to my base?

Edited May 25, 2022 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[Trankitas]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

You have several options at this point.  

 

1) Find something fun in the game to enjoy.

2) Explore modding options to change the game to how you would like it.3) Search elsewhere for a new activity/game to enjoy.

@Mad_Dane
4) Always remember you are NOT forced to update to the latest alpha. Go on steam-7 Days to Die-Properties-Betas and choose whatever version you liked the most and have fun! 

Plus: since you're not a fan of looting and questing, you won't miss the new bandits!

Edited May 25, 2022 by Trankitas (see edit history)

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

 

3) Search elsewhere for a new activity/game to enjoy.

 

 

 

 

Well about that one : well any rumors on new TFP's game? 😜 You know garthering rumors is the most important thing connected with sitting in newsstand XD 🤪

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

An open world game doesn't mean there are no rules or restrictions. It means you aren't on rails shooting at stuff or following a predetermined path. You can go anywhere and in this game break most anything. This game has always had looting and it has always been an important part. It would be like buying a racing game but you don't like racing your car, you like working on it. But it is a racing game and so the developers add a rule that the best rewards and access to new cars comes from placing in races. So you complain that you are being forced to race when what you want to do is stay in the garage and tinker with your car but now you're mad that you'll be forced to go out and race.....in a racing game.

 

Welll... or you want to crash cars. That's why beam.ng is so good because this game can be soo good  art/prop inspiration ^^

I'm not joking -- crashed cars in l4d2 looks soo good and this game can be ideal test how car crashing XD

 

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

Really, the only change is for the primitive level tools and a few other recipes. Most craft recipes have had to be found or purchased for years now. How are you avoiding using a stone axe and primitive bow for the whole game right now because it will be the same way you avoid it in A21.

That is not entirely true. Only T2 items, T3 items, clothing and mods require schematics or books. Everything else can also be unlocked via skills. This includes all workbenches, all traps, all vehicles, all seeds, all T1 items, and most cooking recipes and some drugs. That's a lot.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[LagunaFox]

Ok first of all, I finally made an account to post on here after like 2-3 years of just lurking and reading news bits now and then lol. However when I saw this post I really did feel the need to speak up because of the level of ridiculousness in it. So lets go through it line by line.

 

9 hours ago, Mad_Dane said:

Either you go questing and looting or you play the rest of the game with a T1 stone axe and bow.

This is definitely wrong in alpha 20 as currently miner 69er allows you to upgrade your tools at least to level 5 quality, but yes you will largely be limited to primitive tools and weapons. However If you aren't questing or looting AT ALL, then you are also missing out on like 80% of what the game has to offer you. Not that questing and looting is 80% of the game mind you, but that if you aren't questing or looting then you also aren't exploring any of the POI's in the game and that is a travesty.

 

Quote

Building in a voxel engine is what makes this game special, there is much much better survival games out there!

What survival games out there are better? I agree that the voxel part creates an amazing customizable world, I love being able to mine and alter the world as I please. To me 7 days really is the best survival game out there largely because of this system in combination with the looting and the many many POI's to explore. The random world generation is the crown on top because it adds a really amazing level of replayability to the game that almost no other survival games out there posses.

 

Quote

Forcing everyone to go loot completely defeats the purpose of making an open world game!

What? I'm sorry did you even read this sentence before you hit enter? Because all you have to do is read it again and it doesn't make any sense. The point of making an open world game, is having an open world for you to explore and interact with. How is incentivizing someone to go out and explore and find things defeating the purpose of said open world? To some degree I could understand if you meant that the game is far too reliant on the quest system to give players loot and I do feel that way also but going out to loot is the same as going out and exploring, you can't do one without the other, and if you aren't exploring anything why are you even playing open world games?

 

Quote

And in case that went over your head, I like building big VERY big and it's simply not feasible to do solo, before you have motor tools, harvesting skills and all workstations, with the slowed down progress (From when you killed learning by doing), I already needed to spend upwards of 300 hours in a single seed to make a large build and now you want to slow it down again, by forcing me to go loot 2000 magazines before I can even get started building big!

I can honestly say that the only part of the game that I've played that had this learning by doing system was the Darkness Falls mod, and while in concept I really liked the idea because it made a lot of sense, in practice it was extremely boring and tedious and took a ton of resources and time to even slightly increase my skills. I also like to do larger builds, you didn't specify any kind of dimensions so I'm not totally sure what you meant by that, and I've never had any problems with spending a little time outside of building to go get some resources and maybe find better tools in say a Working Stiff tools building. If you read what they said clearly then you would understand that A) The perks are still going to be important, investing in Miner 69er will make those tool magazines drop more often and we don't even know what those drop rates will look like so there is no reason to believe it will be slowed down any more than the current build is. B) If building is your only concern then you won't need to find nearly that many magazines. C) They specifically said that some things will have 100 levels while others will have less as necessary, the pictures they showed were only for the robot turrets and the shotguns so we don't even know if that really applies to tools nor do we know if those pictures represent the finalized values for each category of this new mechanic. Just slow your roll and chill, things are still prone to change.

 

Quote

Edit: Crafting has been useless since you removed the ability to craft T6, it's basically only used to plug the holes from when RNGeesus hates on you, this new system won't fix that.

I would very much disagree on this point. Because of the fact that items have a random stat roll added to them a level 5 item that you craft can still be better than a level 6 item you find or buy. The only reason I would take a level 6 item that had worse stats than a level 5 would be if I really wanted the extra mod slot for a mod like maybe throwing in the tempered blade mod into a pickaxe or whatever. Of course if you are only ever crafting primitive weapons/tools you wouldn't know that because they don't have any random stats associated with them, they are the same every time.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

That is not entirely true. Only T2 items, T3 items, clothing and mods require schematics or books. Everything else can also be unlocked via skills. This includes all workbenches, all traps, all vehicles, all seeds, all T1 items, and most cooking recipes and some drugs. That's a lot.

 

You are correct. There is a lot in general but not all of those are really things that must be crafted if all you care about is building and mining.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Another thing I'm wholly interested in is upgrading workbenches by placing bench addon's nearby; I know we used to be able to upgrade workbenches by adding things like a crucible and whatnot, have y'all put any consideration into workbench upgrades by proximity?

 

This is something I absolutely love about Valheim. You upgrade your workstation and decorate your shop at the same time. Terraria also does this. It is very satisfying. I hope TFP considers this strongly for their next game if it even has craft stations.

[LagunaFox]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

This is something I absolutely love about Valheim. You upgrade your workstation and decorate your shop at the same time. Terraria also does this. It is very satisfying. I hope TFP considers this strongly for their next game if it even has craft stations.

I can also agree with this, I've only just started playing Valheim but I love the additions to the workbench and forge, they really fill out the space around them and create a proper workshop kind of vibe. Anyone that has walked into a workshop understands what I mean, you don't just have once bench for everything, you've got racks for tools, tool chests/boxes, specialized equipment all that stuff. It also really gives a sense of progression more so than just increasing a number somewhere.

[LagunaFox]

17 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well... this works this way sometimes. i'm not  joking. Ofc you will not figured out how to make AK47 but you can figured out something unespected - few gunsmith by their war experience use a strange solution to improve weapons

Right but those are gunsmiths that go into war, they already had knowledge, skills and understanding on how these guns were made and worked before they ever fired them. Seeing as how we start off this game with literally no skills at all I assume we are talking about any average joe schmo out there picking up a gun, firing off a couple hundred rounds and suddenly knowing how to make the weapon better.

What you are talking about probably makes more sense in a game where you pick a class to start with, which I again have to point at Darkness Falls and the other mods like it.

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, LagunaFox said:

Right but those are gunsmiths that go into war, they already had knowledge, skills and understanding on how these guns were made and worked before they ever fired them. Seeing as how we start off this game with literally no skills at all I assume we are talking about any average joe schmo out there picking up a gun, firing off a couple hundred rounds and suddenly knowing how to make the weapon better.

What you are talking about probably makes more sense in a game where you pick a class to start with, which I again have to point at Darkness Falls and the other mods like it.

And here is problem with lore - our characters have some skill because we manage survive a lot of years after zombie outbreake. 

But i agree classes could solve this logical problem

[Red Eagle LXIX]

17 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

And here is problem with lore - our characters have some skill because we manage survive a lot of years after zombie outbreake. 

But i agree classes could solve this logical problem

Not really a big problem.  We know from our character's story we have been dumped somewhere with a warning and not much in the way of supplies.

Our character could have been part of a community of survivors like that managed to keep the zombies out.  Perhaps we've just been kicked out.

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Red Eagle LXIX said:

Not really a big problem.  We know from our character's story we have been dumped somewhere with a warning and not much in the way of supplies.

Our character could have been part of a community of survivors like that managed to keep the zombies out.  Perhaps we've just been kicked out.

So he/she have skills because he manage to survive a long period before start of game so.... actual point perks is more logical that new one. Why? well... our character can have amnesia so need time to remind something. And... honestly this "shot 10 zombie so i can better cook" can be more logical even that  LBL because our character just can remind "radomly" ( after put point in skill) how to do something

[NukemDed]

seems to me that the incremental gains from reading magazines plays into the hands of modders to reintroduce lbd. any modders care to comment?

[POCKET951]

1 hour ago, NukemDed said:

seems to me that the incremental gains from reading magazines plays into the hands of modders to reintroduce lbd. any modders care to comment?

Undead legacy and Darkness falls already have LBD elements, though I consider Undead Legacys LBD to me more like LBD-lite

[Guest]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:42 PM, Telly G said:

This is similar to how dying light 2 handles it. Weapon upgrading is the only means to repair a weapon, not every weapon has upgrade slots to use, most only have two and cannot be re-applied. Once it's done, you just drop it. 

 

It was the same in DL1 as well, trying to repair your gas pipe that is broken with no repair slots left while trying to smack a zed in the head just  angers that zed. The only option left is to swap weapons or run.

On 5/23/2022 at 6:38 PM, Syphon583 said:

That is a frustrating issue for sure. But there is something you can do that the UI does NOT inform you of at all: hit the ESC key to back out of the quest reward window. You get the option to browse their inventory where you can sell items to clear up space, or just back out entirely and go store stuff in your vehicle or temporarily in one of their containers (trash piles, cupboards, whatever). When you press E on the trader again, the quest reward window will appear (with the exact same rewards, if I'm not mistaken).

 

Ot just ask us, the player, if we to accept the reward at the time and thise rewards will go back in the cupboard. The next reward will NOT off those rewards again, or maybe ask with an increased level. I have been offered rewards that are much worse that I already have. Yes I can sell them, if that trader wants them or scrap them

 

With regard to A21 I am going to reserve judgement until I can play it to see what is what

Edited May 26, 2022 by Phil (see edit history)